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File: 8554f9de7f78dc1⋯.jpg (39.08 KB,606x592,303:296,Neues_Museum_Odin.jpg)

About The Central Family Asatruar 07/10/18 (Tue) 22:12:12 No.17768

I'm trying to understand the family structure of Odin's family. So what is it?

The simplest reading would have it seem that Odin had a son by Jorth named Thor, and a son by Frigg named Balder, and a and a son by Gritr named Vitarr and a son by Rindr named Vali.

Using the Skaldskaparmal that list becomes enlarged, though there has been many criticisms that it was a late addition by Christian priests to position Odin as god of all other gods and thus, "there be one god, goy, and we know the most about him, goy".

The list of the supposed "Odin's sons":

Baldr and Meili

Víðarr and Nepr

Váli, Áli

Thor and Hildólfr

Hermóðr, Sigi

Skjöldr, Yngvi-Freyr and Ítreksjóð

Heimdallr, Sæmingr

Höðr and Bragi

One that stands out immediately to me as a corruption and a mistake is Yngvi-Freyr since Frey is a Van and could no way be born from an Aesir only through the race of Vanir.

Placing a name under each supposed mother:

Frigg: Baldr, Hermóðr (takes up Frigg's request to ride to Helheim first called brother of Balder), Höðr (understood as twin brother of Balder and killer), Bragi (condoned by Frigga for only using words against an enemy in a mother's scolding way)

Jorth: Meili (only Thor calls him his brother), Thor

Gritr: Víðarr

Rindr: Váli

<Mother Unknown>: Nepr (father of Nanna, Nanna was the wife of Balder, making Balder and Nanna's son Forseti an incest which Odin himself is much against), Áli, Hildólfr, Sigi (Odin's supposed "third son" and one of the few known important deities for the Franks), Skjöldr (a supposed god from the land of Scythia according to the Skjöldunga saga, only known as a boy in a boat without any oars), Yngvi-Freyr (maintaining just Frey and not possible to be a son of Odin), Ítreksjóð, Heimdallr (attested as having nine mothers, usually understood as being born in all the Nine Worlds at the same time, as a sort of guide/scout/messenger), Sæmingr

Is Frigg and Jorth the same goddess? Both have a connection to the Earth, with Frigg's more Germanic name being Fulla or Hulda comes close for another name of Jorth being Hlotyn. Also there are Latin inscriptions in the Rhineland to Hludana made during Roman conquest showing a seated goddess which Fricka is shown often as. Grimm said he couldn't find a way that Hlóðyn wasn't Hludana.

So if Frigg and Jord are the same that leaves two giantness giving birth to Víðarr and Váli. I would guess Váli is the latest son Odin has had but I can't place a time when Víðarr was born and for what reason.

Interestingly enough Víðarr and Váli have names very similar to the more ancient names of Odin and his brothers. We know much about the son of Burr named Woten but Vili and Vé much less. Either Vili or Vé could have had done with an Aesir talked about in the medieval times but more recently not as much known as Methothin/Mitothin. There was another Aesir of this time Irminsul/Irmin attested in the 12th century Kaiserchronik, where idols of the Aesir still stood. Both in their medieval times are depicted like an "Odinic" figure but have different traits from Woden himself. Were these two the brothers of Odin?

____________________________

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Asatruar 07/11/18 (Wed) 09:38:52 No.17780

What are you're thoughts on this being allegory for indo European expiditions rapebabying native peoples and creating new tribes by doing so?

It seems in indo European religion that a central father god fugg a bunch of women of different types and each bears a son who becomes a god in its own right.

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Asatruar 07/12/18 (Thu) 02:48:56 No.17799

>>17768

Fricka is not Fulla by the list of Asynjur in Skaldskaparma. Jord is definitely Frigga because of her attesting to Donar, he would only listen to his birth mother. "Giant" is a poor translation for a word we don't have in Modern English, something like "elemental", the female goddess, Asynjur, when uncoupled are considered "Giant" in the sense that they are unstructured and formless, "Giant" being used an adjective. Coupled to an Aesir they become Asynjur of the structured forms we see.

>>"Skjöldr"

From that mysterious play of Ur-Hamlet and whether the lost saga of Skjöldunga was used as a source in its writing.

>>17780

I'll start with a question, are you of the camp which thinks the Lord of Asgard changes? Such as Tyr/Ziu or Flynnt/Vilin once holding the throne upon a time. Since the name of Wodin etymologically has no similarity to the deity I think you are thinking of.

No matter your answer Odin having multiple sons by multiple women can simply be understood as the right of the King. Even in Christian times, Kings often had more than one women to bear them other heirs, either secretly and/or for a specific purpose, this greatly angered the Christian Church but the Kings continued its practice. Its the price a woman pays for getting the head of a King to not be his only one and this is also the old denotation of a King. A King would not allow another man under him to have more than one woman since this would mean he had become a rival King.

Vitarr and Vali were born for a singular purpose. Vitarr's singular purpose is to avenge Odin's death by killing Loki's son Fenrir. Vali's singular purpose was to avenge the death of Balder. If you are forced to see this as just an allegory then its one showing the best structure for a King's family.

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Asatruar 07/13/18 (Fri) 10:17:30 No.17848

>>17799

My understanding is that the original head god figure was Tyr, who was similar to Jupiter or God.

By first century AD (probably 1000+ years earlier), Wotan had risen to this position and had displaced Tyr, taking on his sky father of war position, but also bringing his own new characteristics.

What you're saying about kings makes sense. Thanks anon.

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Asatruar 07/16/18 (Mon) 09:19:04 No.17878

File: 939becb415b3350⋯.jpg (32.56 KB,510x390,17:13,iron-age-odin.jpg)

>>17848

There is no evidence I can put forward to agree with you. I can only show you that it is not, from figures to all our stories the Wode sits on the throne and he has always sat there, by all known accounts.

Though it being considered Tyr has a ruling position could come from the Icelandic rune poem:

>>ok hofa hilmir

>>and prince of temples

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Asatruar 07/16/18 (Mon) 09:57:34 No.17881

File: c83a58dd8047afe⋯.pdf (1.33 MB,c83a58dd8047afefb6ac66d954….pdf)

>>17848

>>17878

Another good theory is that Tyr and Woden are joint heads of the pantheon, sky fathers of day lit sky and the night sky respectively. This book goes into more detail, very good read overall.

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Asatruar 09/19/18 (Wed) 20:22:08 No.18314

The Edda explains your question well, and a lot more. Read it.

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Asatruar 09/24/18 (Mon) 00:30:06 No.18353

There is no "cannon".

The gods evolved over thousands of years across an entire continent.

The texts we have nearly all written after a land was christianized, and often collecting a variety of contradictory stories from different times and places.

Even in their localized use, the stories of the gods were often used as entertainment and to illustrate points, rather than in the codified "scientific" manner of the church.

>>17780

I don't think so. The various branches of IE conquest were separated by distance, language, and time and not in contact.

It may be more analogous to the IE family structure, in which a man could take as many wives as he required to have the most children that he was capable of feeding and raising. For most men one would do, but if you were exceptionally capable in life and could afford a dozen kids then you might need two or three wives for that.

>>17848

Yep, they are both thought to be derived from "Deus Pater" although there is no written record of this deity.

>>17881

Cool I hadn't seen this before. Thanks anon.

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Asatruar 09/24/18 (Mon) 04:37:36 No.18356

>>18353

>>a man could take as many wives as he required to have the most children that he was capable of feeding and raising

For Germanics, only a King may, as Tacitus describes. The Kings of Europe even continued this tradition until their usurping.

>>"Almost alone among barbarians they are content with one wife, except a very few among them, and these not from sensuality, but because their noble birth procures for them many offers of alliance."

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Bloodaxe!IOQRAgvdPI 09/30/18 (Sun) 23:54:51 No.18407

>>17768

Irmin is just another name for Odin coming from the Germanic side. Irminsul is the same as Yggdrasil both meaning "Odin's horse"

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Bloodaxe!IOQRAgvdPI 10/01/18 (Mon) 00:01:34 No.18408

>>18407

To expound the norse equivalent to Irmin is Jormund which would suggest Jormundgandr has the prefix of Odin's name so what does the world serpent's name really mean "Odin's serpent" or something else. The answer is not known.

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Bloodaxe!IOQRAgvdPI 10/01/18 (Mon) 00:05:00 No.18409

>>18408

Also I don't remember what book I got this from but it was a book on Germanic Paganism and here's a wikipedia page which describes it (which yeah I know is not credible) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminism

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Asatruar 10/01/18 (Mon) 04:42:37 No.18410

File: ccd717c05255378⋯.jpg (96.9 KB,674x611,674:611,page 21.JPG)

>>18409

From my own research into Irmon using the "Chronika der Sachsen und Niedersachsen" of 1588 just by using the picture I'd have to say Bragi, primarily because of the rooster but following the writing it could or might not. I know such a resource wouldn't be to credible on specifics or understanding as it'll go into Babel and Israel as well Tyr just being the first king of Germans. But the folk knowledge written between the lines would still be greater than now.

"und bedeut das offe krieg und fireit von einer Blumen das ist schnoden und geringen dingen"

"and meaning open warfare and into fight with a flower that is despicable and a low thing"

Its strange to associate Bragi with fighting but he is one of Odin's sons, and flowers but his wife Idun is associated with the apple blossom.

If you want to use the same page to describe Odin, you could as well with the bear on his chest (Bärenmänner of the Einherjahr) as well the book mentions many idols but doesn't use any Wotan/Odin name which could mean at least by the author's understanding this would be him.

This link should send you to page 21 of it, the scan is really terrible in some places such as on page 15.

https://books.google.com/books?id=JfFSAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=Chronica+der+Sachsen+und+Niedersachsen#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also as Germanic idols are strewn throughout such as on page 45 is about the temple complex at Lüneburg and the "Man in the Moon" carried by Nótt which is either her son or her father, the author doesn't care enough to say.

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Asatruar 10/02/18 (Tue) 09:38:14 No.18411

>>18410

The fact he's suited up in armour and holding scales makes me think of Tyr tbh

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Asatruar 10/02/18 (Tue) 11:05:17 No.18412

File: 79e4469efedd2bf⋯.jpg (287.68 KB,563x843,563:843,DeutschenVater.jpg)

File: 080b4be08a4c93d⋯.jpg (48.32 KB,301x407,301:407,Tuisco.jpg)

>>18411

I don't know the reason for the scales at all. In the 1500s Tyr is never depicted with armor, when the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V has Peter Flotner create a depiction of Tuisco, neither of them know Snorri's work exists, or even the name "Tyr", and so the depiction is from the viewpoint of an ancient King and so his garb is the most simple. Strangely enough I don't know how Flotner decided to give Tyr one hand as at best he'd have only the Old English rune poem, which doesn't say Tyr has one hand, to derive from and of course the newly rediscovered Germania by Tacitus. He wouldn't have had the Icelandic or Norwegian rune poems as far as I know. Also most important Flotner would have to have a good basis with his Emperor to depict the supposed "father of all Germans and first king of Germans" having only one hand because the English continued representing Tyr with two hands way after this.

First picture is Flotner's depiction.

Second is a latter English depiction from Nederlantsche Antiquiteyten.

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