/arda/ - Tolkien's Legendarium

Book Theoden seems a bit weak willed when he let guy called Wormtongue to convince him into apathy. Though, maybe straight up posessions was too much. They could have just emphasized it as Saruman projecting his ability to magically convince people. It seemed silly when the film kind of implied Saruman just stood fiddling his palantir all day while controlling Theoden.

All in all I like the changes that made Saruman more active (mentally dominating Theoden and coaxing the moutain Redhorn to hamper the fellowship).

Words have power in Middle-Earth to a great extent, especially whenever Saruman is involved

It's very possible that in the books as well as the movies, Wormtongue's deceitful words really DID have a physical effect on Theodon, made him seem more tired, haggard and gray. I honestly don't remember if such descriptions are given but I keenly remember how they say he stands taller and more straight after he's "broken free" of the lies.

>>1191

I think it has less thematic content than the books did. The theme is hope in spite of not seeing any way forward. The 'exorcism' Gandalf performs is a metaphysical one, not something like a magic spell.

Movie: Saruman is directly possessing Théoden like a puppet, made possible with Wormtongue's help I guess. Gandalf points his staff at him and exorcises the control over him with his powers.

Book: Wormtongue's council has made Théoden lose all hope, he can no longer see the light nor any way to avoid ruin. This physically manifests in Théoden's appearance because spiritual health or lack thereof is always outwardly evident in Tolkien's work. Gandalf shines light through the window, and then brings Théoden outside to see the sun and breath the fresh air to cure him.

The book version I gave is important because this is the same way Denethor was corrupted. If you lose hope you are conquered by the darkness. This is something many of the characters have to overcome.

>'Now Théoden son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?' said Gandalf. 'Do you ask for help?' He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky. 'Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that despair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them?… I bid you come out before your doors and look abroad. Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.'

>>1198

Yeah, physical appearance showing the inner spirit is huge in Tolkien. So that's a factor too.

You know that scene on the first movie where Gandalf gets angry when Froddo tries to hand him the One Ring?

It's a great scene because the light goes dark, the flames flicker and a great sense of dread fills Froddo.

The words of a Wizard are never just words, anon. That's why when Gandalf shouted at Theoden he woke up. The words of Saruman were too distant (and required Wormtongue to be there).

I like both versions, book and movie. They did diferent things and I think they did them equally well.

The book is much more sophisticated about it that's for sure.

Overall every change the movies make seems to be for the worse with a handful of exceptions such as Gimli being more of a codified comedic relief character. I didn't mind that. Gimli was barely there in the books in the first place.

>The theme is hope in spite of not seeing any way forward

This is dead on. Go through the books and keep track of how many times the hobbits think to themselves 'this is utterly hopeless and I see no way it can work, but we have to keep pushing forward anyway.'

>>1271

To be honest, it's hard to translate Tolkien into film, it would be easier to adapt the Oddessey or the Bible than to adapt LOTR, so I can forgive a lot of changes

>>1198

Basically in the books Théoden and Denethor were blackpilled

>>1364

So what you're saying is that Wormtongue is the Ashes and Echoes shitposter?