/x/ - Paranormal

>>48633

(This is the first thread, ignore the others acidentally made another 2)

I can't say I'd know for certain, but some more information might help me humor a guess.

Though, as a baseline guess, I might make a case for the idea that you're feeling particularly devious regarding a situation on your life or an urge to be rebellious about it.

You're edgy, that's it

you've already met him, his entire thing is tempting you to sin and keep you away from God. be wary, they're probably just trying to cement you in your sin OP.

>>48669

What is OP's sin

>>48857

according to your average christian cultist, if you are alive then you are a sinner. the average varies from "if you exist(ed)" to "if you are capable of thinking"

>>48868

Thats why i kinda stopped

>>48857

Whatever sin that OP may be lost in, occultism, masturbation, things typical for our generation. I never claimed to know what sin OP indulges in, but wherever sin is, so are demons.

>>48868

Strawman argument.

>>48880

For a fallacious argument like that?

>>48881

The Lord doth tempt, does he not? Why?

Why is occultism a sin? Why did He literally He himself, noone else but Him make that stuff if it is not to be touched by anyone? Why are people born into sin? Why are people born into violence? Why are some babies born with leukemia? Babies deserved it? Fallacious argument, fair enough.

How can there be any evil at all, if there is no evil in God?

Answer: there can't; if the claims of your religion are true, then God was both Hitler and Stalin, sending millions to their death for some overrated ideals; he was also both gassed and gasser at Auschwitz; God is every rapist, every pedophile, every murderer, every victim and every perpetrator; and yet he still chooses who gets his favour and who doesn't? Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe in eternal punishment and suffering for one lifetime of sin? What about all those cultures that haven't heard of Christ? Why did God give them a different religion? Why did he give YOU the correct religion? Unanswerable questions are the death of any totalitarian system, and holy fuck are there unanswerable questions in christianity; no honestly, I'm interested whether you can debunk any of my questions without resorting to "god's ways are mysterious" because they certainly are but that's also a worthless fallacious argument of authority; can you explain the problem of evil without free will? Because for there to be free will, one has to be able to go against God. If your supposed going-against-god ultimately still serves Him, then it really isn't free will is it?

Incipit Illustratio. Fite me christanon.

>>48884

>unironically implying holocaust happened

>muh designated gassing camps

what the fuck are you doing on /x/? this is pathetic, get to know the world better and learn its actual history before you explain why religionfaggots are retards

>>48884

>The Lord doth tempt, does he not? Why?

Lord doesn't actually do the temptation, He just lets Satan loose on you.

>Why is occultism a sin?

Because it involves worshiping fallen angels or fictitious figures in a manner that is unbecoming or outright hostile to Truth. Usually involves acting like a doofus for material things as well, which is inane.

>Why did He literally He himself, noone else but Him make that stuff if it is not to be touched by anyone?

He made you, He didn't create the evil.

>Why are people born into sin?

Original Sin is a privation of God, whom is all goodness and perfection. When you are fallen from God, no perfection is possible. This applies to all the progeny of Adam, aka us.

We are not perfect, because we have fallen from perfection, thus perfection in our (current) material bodies is outright impossible.

>Why are some babies born with leukemia? Babies deserved it?

See Original Sin; also I'm pretty sure we've spoken before. If you're gonna debate please try to actually consider my argument instead of throwing a rebuke and scrambling off.

>How can there be any evil at all, if there is no evil in God?

Our current status in life is without the presence of God, thus there is evil. We have free will (because it is more good and even perfect compared to automaton determinism) and if we die confirmed in our wills towards God, we shall reach Heaven, which is a paradise re-gained, without evil.

>Answer: there can't

Do you just sit around all day arguing and answering yourself?

>>48884

>if the claims of your religion are true, then God was both Hitler and Stalin, sending millions to their death for some overrated ideals

Actually, we claim that God gave Christ to defeat death for all time, and at the end of days everyone will be resurrected. This is called the "General Resurrection". If you think of stuff like the Rapture or whatever, that is some modern Protestant nonsense foreign to Traditional Apostolic Christianity.

> God is every rapist, every pedophile, every murderer, every victim and every perpetrator; and yet he still chooses who gets his favour and who doesn't?

Heaven is the presence of God, every rapist, pedophile, or ebil bad man that makes you rage incoherently will not take a foot in there; unless they're repentance was true. The number of truly repentant rapist or pedophiles are vanishingly few, but God is good.

>Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe in eternal punishment and suffering for one lifetime of sin?

Absolutely, because those rapists and pedophiles and other men you blame God for need to go somewhere.

> Why did he give YOU the correct religion? Unanswerable questions are the death of any totalitarian system, and holy fuck are there unanswerable questions in christianity

Silly assumption, I can answer every single question for you, and I'm only a lowly follower of Christ.

>What about all those cultures that haven't heard of Christ?

They will be judged according to the Law in their hearts, aka, their own judging conscious.

>Why did he give YOU the correct religion?

God will give Grace to whom He wishes to give it, will you open your ears and hear too?

>>48927

>Lord doesn't actually do the temptation

So he… nods at Satan to go get you? And yet he is omni-potent, meaning since He is the creator of All that is He not only came up with Satan, he came up with every single one of Satan's actions before He even made Satan. Because it's a perfect plan, right? Furthermore, since He works through All, he also works through Satan and is always in perfect control. Ultimately it IS the Lord who tempts, because there is no other being BUT the Lord. It's Him in disguise according to your own cosmology.

>Because it involves worshiping fallen angels

You know nothing of occultism. There is demon magick, there is also angel magick. Archangel Michael has as much a presence and sigil to be called upon, as does Samael.

>Fictitious figures

heh, I won't go there. Yehova is real.

>He didn't create evil

Omni-potency. Yes He did. There couldn't be evil at all, if He didn't come up with it. Omni-potency.

>because we have fallen from perfection

I didn't choose to be born human, but fair enough. Still though. Why does the son pay for the sins of his father? Does the child of a whore, born with AIDS or the like, actually deserve the AIDS and the suffering that comes with it because the child's MOTHER was sinful?

>spoken before

I'm guessing we have and afaik your only answer was some pilpul polemic. Nonetheless I shall consider your arguments as best I can. I had a protestant education (Augsburger Bekenntnis) and believe to understand the arguments presented very well. They just don't make sense to me, because it's constantly the same "we all good, they all evil" and it's shit like this that has begotten mankind the worst tragedies, like the world wars.

>thus there is evil

And yet, good people suffer all the time. I know a girl, really smart, incredibly nice, always took real good care of her siblings when her parents were working, I could go on about her qualities, the point being she had little to no flaws other than those imposed on all of us by the times we live in, I should add that she is neither promiscuous nor anything similar I always figured she is one of those few people that genuinely deserve all the nice shit in the world because she really is sunshine and flowers incarnate. She was recently diagnosed with a brain tumor and has about 3 years to live. Why does bad stuff happen to the best of people? Why do assholes live to be 80 only to die in their mansions? Why do mass-murderers get immortalized and humanitarians and genuine altruists are shit on at every turn? Because the apple-biting determined that life is shit, and death is awesome? Kill yourself then?

>because it is more good and even perfect compared to automaton determinism

I whole-heartedly agree but that's a cop-out. "I, God, have sent thee to eternal damnation, for thou hast not kissed my ring enough and thus it is YOU who hast chosen eternal suffering, I merely followed thy wish"

>to defeat death

Again, omni-potence. Defeating an enemy you yourself created. kind of uhhh you-know-who, don't you think?

>unless their repentance was true

Fair enough, even the most evil of people are redeemable. That's an idea I genuinely like, even if it is a bit contrived and paradoxical.

>rage incoherently

I see He blessed you with ad-hominem aswell.

>need to go somewhere

Reincarnation is a no, I gather? Jk, but answer me this if you would: If you had been let's say a serial-killer or something similarly vile. Do you honestly believe that you would've acted differently? Why? Providence?

>I can answer every single question for you

I appreciate you taking the time, even though I personally consider most of your answers to be polemic, and not actual arguments.

>They will be judged according to the Law in their hearts

So then I'm going to Heaven without even being baptised? Thanks.

>will you open your ears and hear too?

I do, just not to a simplistic dualistic world-view like yours. Not all things that have "bio" in their name are actually good for you. Isn't one of your sayings that Satan comes disguised as an angel of light? What does an actual angel disguise himself as then?

And in any case, to be truly saved I can do whatever I want to until the last minute where I will convince myself of repenting, thus I will enter heaven and keep bothering you with my nonsense that is just trying to diverge you from His grace even though that's technically impossible because omni-potence and all but oh well

Why didn't he send Christ earlier? Why can't he do his business on his own? Why does he need to send out his underlings, if Satan can do it ALL on his own?

<muh trinity

Why the needless distinction? Also, omni-potence omni-potence omni-potence. He knows it all, sees it all, controls it all.

>>48930

>So he… nods at Satan to go get you?

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/SSJob.htm

Please read this, it is St. Thomas Aquinas writing on the Book of Job, I believe it will be very productive for you and answer many of questions, and dispel many of your assumptions.

> Ultimately it IS the Lord who tempts, because there is no other being BUT the Lord. It's Him in disguise according to your own cosmology.

No, it is Satan who tempts. Satan has his own free will (as well as all the other fallen angels), but only free in that sense in that everything he intends is apart from the Will of God. This is why the "Our Father" says "leads us not into temptation" rather than "do not tempt us".

>There is demon magick, there is also angel magick. Archangel Michael has as much a presence and sigil to be called upon, as does Samael.

These are only presumptions; why would a being in perfect attunement with the Will of God like St. Michael answer to someone who is not God? Further, how do you know it is St. Michael on the other end answering?

>Yes He did. There couldn't be evil at all, if He didn't come up with it. Omni-potency.

Free-will. It is the nature of free-will to be able to choose evil, so while God has created every single thing, He has not, and cannot create sin, which are - by definition - acts done by His creatures in their Free Will.

>Why does the son pay for the sins of his father?

Christ did not pay for the sins of God (God cannot sin, by definition), Christ paid for our sins. As for your other questions, this the price of sin - the actions of free will acting in opposition of God. We are already deprived of the presence of God, so to go and sin in such a way as to harm your own child is the fault of the mother; or in the case of genetic or congenital deformation, simply due to the privation of Our Creator. I do not use "sin" here, because it is not "the punishment of sins" happening here, but logical ends of bad actions.

> I had a protestant education (Augsburger Bekenntnis) and believe to understand the arguments presented very well

I am Catholic. There could be opportunity here, the doctrine of Original Sin answers many of your questions.

1/2

>>48930

>And yet, good people suffer all the time

Read the Book of Job w/ St. Aquinas' commentary. Good people on Earth will suffer, it is part of what happened during the Garden of Eden. If you think of it another way, you know God is good but He never allowed any of this in His presence in Eden, and the very promise of Heaven is freedom from the evil in this world.

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/09/modern-biology-and-original-sin-part-ii.html

Another great article that would help you understand, I think.

>"I, God, have sent thee to eternal damnation, for thou hast not kissed my ring enough and thus it is YOU who hast chosen eternal suffering, I merely followed thy wish"

When you die, your free will is fixed upon whatever it chose up until death. God cannot accept a will fixed upon sin, they simply cannot enter Heaven. It is not God being mean or rude, it is a logical improbability.

>Defeating an enemy you yourself created

Once more, so that you can understand our preposition (which is different from the protestant) sins are actions of creatures with free will opposed to God; God literally cannot sin.

>If you had been let's say a serial-killer or something similarly vile. Do you honestly believe that you would've acted differently? Why? Providence?

No clue, I never murdered anyone. However, I am glad I responded to the Grace of God before ever doing anything such as that. You still seem to think under Protestant propositions that are deterministic in nature; to me, you are merely objecting quite strongly to things that aren't true of God in the first place.

>I appreciate you taking the time, even though I personally consider most of your answers to be polemic, and not actual arguments.

If you will not listen to me, read St. Thomas Aquinas' and Dr. Feser. The latter article is a lot shorter if you are strapped for time.

>So then I'm going to Heaven without even being baptised? Thanks.

St. Dismas - the Good Thief on the Cross did. I am not denying baptism, yet it follows that there will be some in Heaven that were never baptized. Any of the good Mosaic Jews (before Christ), those baptized by blood or desire, etc.

>just not to a simplistic dualistic world-view like yours.

There seems to be a lot you do not know, and I think if you were to know it, you'd return to God.

>What does an actual angel disguise himself as then?

Wheels upon wheels, men in white raiment, seems to be a quite diverse mix of representation. Angels are said to be even more diverse in form than humans are.

>And in any case, to be truly saved I can do whatever I want to until the last minute where I will convince myself of repenting

The Saints have said this error has led more souls to Hell than anything. (2nd place, or concurrent with this one, are said to be sins of the flesh).

>Why didn't he send Christ earlier?

It has been pre-ordained, and God is not subject to Time or Change. God, by definition, is the Creator apart from Creation. You can repeating "omnipotence" but you are not actually thinking from God's POV. He's not part of Time, period.

>Why does he need to send out his underlings, if Satan can do it ALL on his own?

God does not do evil, so He allows those whose inclination are evil to do evil. Additionally, we are deprived of God, so therefore evil is able to place in the first place. Since God is outside of Time, we know that when God allows evil to occur, there is some other good that will occur; because God is not evil, nor sinful.

>Why the needless distinction?

The Trinity is not a needless distinction, and if you reflected on it, it'd release the intense grips of doubts you suffer from. Again, I don't think it's God you are rebelling against.

>>48930

one more thing, it occurs to me that you keep freely mixing up evil and sin, which is inaccurate in scriptural parlance.

evil = things that are objectively not good for humans, this could be situations or actions of creatures that are harmful, encompass all sinful things by definition, etc

so in this sense "to do evil", is not to say God is sinning, but allowing something harmful to occur that the greater good may come from it.

which once more, all ties into the doctrine of Original Sin, which as Dr. Feser points out, is theologically more akin to the loss of a privilege rather than a "sin gene" or whatever.

Oh look, catholic-anon and leukemia-baby-anon are at it again. And yet again leukemia-baby-anon brings up the Problem of Evil. What leukemia-anon doesn't realize is that the Problem of Evil is literally unsolvable in the way he wants it solved.

Claiming that God is malevolent creates another problem, a "Problem of Good". If God did indeed knowingly and willingly create suffering for the sake of inflicting pain, created an exile-realm of eternal suffering for us, and declared it a sin to commune with allegedly good entities, why does He allow good to exist? Why do some people make miraculous recoveries from terrible accidents or diseases that would otherwise be unrecoverable from? What drives evangelical Christian churches to do so much humanitarian work overseas? When I was a teenager, what saved my dad's life when the ladder he was climbing while trimming a tree tipped over? What stopped the ladder mid-fall? What caused my dysfunctional family to completely reform? And lastly, why would a servant of the very God leukemia-anon condemns show up in my own home, in the form of a woman in a white gown, promising that my life (which was awful at the time) would completely turn around, right before my life started turning around? ''Why would a creation of the same God responsible for a world in which the Black Death and the World Wars exist show compassion and altruism?

I suppose leukemia-anon will answer this by repeating the Problem of Evil or some more bad things that happened in the world, or perhaps show some willingness to hold a real discussion by claiming every good thing that happens in this world is the result of fallen angels subverting God's plan. In that case, why would they have the free will to do good if God was malevolent. And how do we know for certain which side plays what role anyway? Let's face it, you can't solve the Problem of Evil without creating a Problem of Good, and if you answer with a cop-out by claiming the demons traditionally associated with evil are responsible for good and God is responsible for evil, you still have a dualistic belief system. And you still haven't truly solved the Problem.

If you're an atheist, I suppose you've already solved the Problem, but…

>Lilith is the only deity I know for certain to exist based on my knowing her; not just blindly believing. I consider knowing her to be a blessing. These ladies are the dark aspect of the feminine divine long forgotten.

From the previous argument between catholic-anon and leukemia-anon. Better known as succubus-anon. You can't claim to not believe in God without subjecting the "feminine divine" to the Problem. And to do so would add insult to injury because goddess neopaganism has absolutely no adversary and you can't get out of implicating the sacred feminine in every tragedy in history.

>>48633

OCD

I'm not religious but I still don't fuck with any demonic shit, just in case. There's a lot more to lose there than there is to gain.