cb758e No.15908602
So many different games now come with these RPG features sometimes more so then actual RPGs, has the definition of RPG changed? Because I'm not sure what counts as one anymore.
35ff30 No.15908611
Near Automatic is apparently a JRPG.
3a7528 No.15908624
>>15908602
Considering you've got RPG focused sites covering the likes of action adventure like Zelda, adventure/VN like Ace Attorney, and trash like Life is Strange, I'd wager the only requirement at this point is "being put in the role of a character". Which is of course really fucking broad.
37f91a No.15908628
>has the definition of RPG changed
First you need to provide the original definition.
386bd9 No.15908634
>>15908611
The leveling mechanic was completely extraneous bullshit; anyone calling Tomato an RPG is the highest level of dipshit possible
402935 No.15908644
To me, RPGs should have assloads of branching paths and actually let you roleplay to some degree. That said, something like Sengoku Rance isn't necessarily not an RPG because the main character is set in stone and has a distinct personality you can't change. I have a personal hatred of when a developers slaps down some enemies in a hallway, gives the player levels and grind and calls it an rpg. See: Kiseki games.
2bfa8e No.15908655
>>15908624
>Be mmorpg.com
>Start incorporating non-MMOs and non-RPGs into website to stay trendy
>Be me
>Haven't been back since
611e4a No.15908658
>>15908602
>What counts as an RPG these days?
game system is loosely based on a tabletop roleplaying game, such as Dungeons & Dragons
35ff30 No.15908666
>>15908658
Good I like this definition, It prevents games like Tomato from qualifying. I'm going to use it for now on. Replace Tabletop with Pen and Paper tho.
856337 No.15908698
>>15908644
What's really tricky about the whole debate is that even the pillars of the RPG genre, your Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests, aren't proper RPGs. They've got turn-based combat, numeric stats, leveling up, swords, spells, and gold pieces, like D&D has, but that's about it. Originally D&D, was a more freeform game than most people remember. The rules weren't nearly as exhaustive and much of the game was about your creativity and imagination, more than grinding levels and stacking +1 bonuses until you could just steamroll through dungeons.
Doesn't help that the term is pretty vague. Hence all the pedantic faggots who say "I'm playing the role of a character, that makes it a role-playing game!"
8b5739 No.15908721
>>15908698
No video game RPG can be an RPG in the true sense, since everything that happens in the game needs to be programmed into it in the first place. You can't have the same freedom as when you just use pen, paper and your imagination. That's why they're loosely based on it. >>15908658 's definition is probably the best we can get
bf0c6d No.15908737
anythign at all giving you exp for anything is an rpg
cb758e No.15908742
>>15908666
Did Nier touch you as a kid?
>>15908737
By that logic COD is an RPG.
35ff30 No.15908743
>>15908721
>>15908698
They seem to have the spirit of pen and paper RPGs to me. Lots of JRPGs are your typical adventure with a party and during that adventure each player levels up and gets new skills and items.
Party is an important element. This is why I don't consider games like The Witcher or even Morrowind RPGs, they are elaborate action games with stat systems. Action RPGs if you will.
The problem is that most people are too obsessed with these action games to really appreciate the party aspect that these games lack.
>>15908721
They are just RPGs with a static adventure and the game's programming is the game master.
35ff30 No.15908745
>>15908743
That post makes me look like a reddtor. I need to go kill myself.
2bfa8e No.15908753
>>15908666
>>15908658
>>15908698
I want a return to roots in vidya. Too many derivatives and immitations plague the market like locusts. What I'd give for a decent RPG or fantasy simulator.
If a worth while RPG has come out and I missed it, feel free to bully.
This is now /tg/
1dde87 No.15908755
>>15908634
>autotomato
Nigger people where calling O.G. Nier a JRPG as well and that game is not an RPG ether.
cb758e No.15908760
>>15908743
>The Witcher or even Morrowind RPGs, they are elaborate action games with stat systems.
>Party is an important element
Why does every RPG need a party system?
35ff30 No.15908761
>>15908753
Divinity: Original Sin 2 was very fun but I don't know if that's what you're looking for. People on here constantly talk about how pozzed it is but I heavily enjoyed it. Also has insane repayability in its coop and custom campaigns.
598e28 No.15908765
>>15908628
>First you need to provide the original definition.
And that in itself is subjective. I've always gone with character mechanics that level up with experience. Turn based always seemed to mean JRPG. Diablo games ARPG. Turn based fixed environments overhead battle equals SRPG. King's Field was always the odd duck with its FPSwordRPG thing it had going.
856337 No.15908805
>>15908721
At one point, we did have old CRPGs and early vidya where they came close to the essential RPG experience. Games where choice and consequences were rampant, where the skills you picked and the party members you chose drastically altered how you got to play the game and approach all its challenges. Now, RPG mechanics include a leveling system (gated progression) and loot-based equipment mechanics.
I don't think you're wrong that the classic JRPGs were close to the mythical true RPG formula, but I also feel that they were lacking. Most were incredibly linear and the only meaningful choices you had to make were what job classes to take (in the case of FF1 and 3, for instance) and whether or not you wanted to grind to afford the next tier of gear, or just try slogging through the game naturally. Usually, grinding was not optional in the early eras.
I feel like Dragon's Dogma came closer than most other action RPGs, but it still falls a bit short. Mostly because the damage formula demands bigger numbers or you will not be allowed to win. Also, the whole thing was cut short and condensed from it's much grander scope, which seems like it would have created that excellent exploration-y, adventure-y atmosphere that people want from an RPG.
1dde87 No.15908829
>>15908760
because traditionally role playing games is played with friends but people who are PC gamers typically don't have friends so they must be simulated.
8b5739 No.15908867
>>15908743
>>15908805
Sure you can come close to a real RPG if you know what you're doing, but my point is that video games and pen/paper are different mediums and should be treated as such, since one can do things the other can't and vice-versa. Also games cost money so there's that; sure you can make good games with little budget if you're creative, but in general, more options = increased cost overall, while pen/paper is only limited by the chosen ruleset and the GM's imagination.
1dde87 No.15908869
>>15908765
You don't know what the term subjective memes. Their are idealized forms of a conceptualized "Role playing game" that one can use as a foundation to drive what an RPG is in essence. These essential elements of an RPG can be defined and once defined held as a standard bearer for what a game developer is trying to accomplish. Thus, having a standard, is not subjective. While different RPG be them Turn based or Action, or western or Japanese they all hold something in common and those commonalities are the universals inherent in all RPGs. It is when those universals are redefined that the genera is subverted and degraded and the degradation of the medium as a whole is possible in large part because of the relativistic nominalistic thinking ubiquitous in the largely implicitly liberal industry.
856337 No.15908870
>>15908760
>>15908829
Party systems go with the essential RPG experience, because the hyper-competent adventurer is boring as hell. Having a group of different specialists, who all exist to help you with different challenges with their different talents, gives you different resources to manage and choices to make. Do you keep the thief alive to pick the locks and disarm the traps, or do you try to protect the wizard more because his spells might come in handy? Can you afford to let the fighter take a beating, in hopes that his armor and higher HP will keep him chugging along, or do you let someone else be the meat shield, even if that means risking your cleric who handles the healing? Shit like that.
1dde87 No.15908878
>memes
means*
>>15908870
>having a team leads to more interesting scenarios.
this is also true
2bfa8e No.15908881
>>15908761
I was interested in D:OS2 when the failing four, Polygonehome, Eurogayer, Kotakushits and Rock, Paper, Cobainyourselves all conspiringly didn't give it 9 or 10/10s. Same with Kingdom Come. I didn't (((buy))) them because although they are closest to the original RPGs, I think game developers of today are a lesser breed. Vidya has not progressed naturally the way it should have. Will probably test or rent them in the future, only to pass the time.*
cb758e No.15908889
>>15908870
>because the hyper-competent adventurer is boring as hell
That's not always the case as it can be interesting to play that character, I don't mind having a party based game but I don't think it's the essential .
1daf2f No.15908899
An RTS with unit veterancy is an RPG
Prove me wrong.
402935 No.15908927
>>15908899
Does it matter? All that matters is if the game's good. Arguing about genres changes nothing.
327c06 No.15908969
>>15908927
I know right? My favorite third-person action shooter is Fallout 1.
82481f No.15908975
To hell with your low effort thread
402935 No.15908987
>>15908969
>equating an RTS with unit levelling is equivalent to equating a turn based RPG with a TPS action shooter
2bfa8e No.15908988
>>15908698
>>15908743
>>15908755
>>15908765
The best JRPG I have ever played, came from a console. I am not making a jest. I highly recommend Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber, on an emulator of course. Using a controller will never not be heretical for a strategy game. The only thing is, you won't be exploring dungeons, but the battlefields of Zeteginia. It's niche as fuck but some of you might enjoy it. Ok, that's enough shilling for the dead
1daf2f No.15908991
>>15908927
Of course not anon. None of this matters. Arguments about what an rpg, roguelike or metroidvania is have never mattered at all.
327c06 No.15908996
>>15908987
You asked for it, mate.
402935 No.15909000
>>15908988 (heil'd)
I really gotta get around to playing it. I finished the first mission then stopped playing it for some reason.
2bfa8e No.15909079
>>15909000
The tutorial, yes. Also a word of warning, though PoLC has a main story path set out for you, your choices still matter. Perhaps most importantly, are the choices you make on the battlefield.
402935 No.15909090
>>15909079
Are you just copy pasting the back of the box
2bfa8e No.15909104
>>15909090
I was a child when I first played and had'nt had much experience with choice in vidya or irl. My post was probably a waste of time, yes.
aeaaaa No.15909216
I thought rpgs were exploration based games that relied on having a party that specialized in multiple roles that contribute to the progress of the team.
2bfa8e No.15909276
It's about fun, freedom and the story you create.
Roles and characters to choose from with their own histories and items to use and wield.
Choices to make that impact your character, others around you and the environment.
It's about having some control over your life, instead of being another cog in the machine.
The escape from our own society's constricting, dumbing down, sharp corner proofing, fun and creativivity killing bullshit we deal with every fucking day of our lives. See current events with the EU and PC culture killing our hobbies.
It's about pioneering the unknown and flexing our imagination's muscles from their long slumber of the day to day.
It's about companionship, finding tohers to share a hobby or passion. To drink and be merry. To smoke and tell stories.
It's about keeping your mind off the fucking mud you trudge through every day of your life just to put food on the table.
Tabletop RPGs and video games are rooted in our traditions and history, as songs and stories are but the next step in their evolution.
a548e2 No.15909291
>>15909216
that's table top.
fd56ac No.15909292
>>15909291
What anon described is a dungeon crawler.
a548e2 No.15909295
aeaaaa No.15909317
>>15909292
The one with the fat spic superhero image?
4adbe5 No.15909322
>>15908602
idk man rocket propelled grenade is a pretty straightforward term xD
aeaaaa No.15909329
>>15909322
>xD
Pic related's for you
3fd4a4 No.15909981
RPG is a roleplaying game. F2 and Planescape Torment are roleplaying games. Everything with less dialogue and choices than those is an action "RPG", because they have RPG-like stats or whatever. JRPG is just any grindy shit with huge numbers everywhere.
10ddef No.15910023
>>15908969
>Liking turn based walking sims
7821f4 No.15910061
I dunno. Jrpgs and wrpgs are kinda the same thing if you ask me. You have characters with stats that you could "level up". Sometimes you have to allot the stat points yourself, or they get alloted automatically by the game. You can also usually equip gear and weaponry to your characters, which again, modifies your character's stats or abilities.
The divergence between jrpgs and wrpgs happens with anime aesthetics and dialogue trees. Wrpgs usually shove dialogue trees out the ass where you can converse with everyone with multiple dialogue options available. Usually, this comes with some sort of Good vs Evil morality system too. Just about everyone "has a lot to say" because wrpg devs spend more time writing dialogue responses than anything else. An wrpg protagonist like Commander Shepard being more of a blank slate than a jrpg protag like Cloud Strife, which has a more predefined personality by the game's writers.
Jrpgs on the other hand usually have more an "anime" aesthetic that screams I'm Japanese. That weeby look that binds them in common. They also don't spend nearly as much time on writing or dialogue trees as wrpgs do. NPCs usually run out of new things to say quickly. But the upside to jrpg devs not exspending a lot of effort on writing is that they have more time to polish up other things. I seen more varied types of gameplay and combat on the jrpg side of things than I do with wrpgs. Sometimes they play it safe and do a turn-based rpg like Dragon Quest. Or sometimes they do something experimental like Kingdom Heart's gameplay. All that floating and midair combos and such.
But yeah, they're pretty much the same apart from the japanese artwork or branching pathways.
aeaaaa No.15910094
>>15910061
Not to mention more experimental gameplay as you've mentioned on the japanese side of things. Even in the same genre games like mary skelter, demon gaze, and elminage gothic are similar but not exactly alike.
f353a9 No.15910120
Does anyone here know of any really good rpgs that don't focus on stats but on critical hits (like specific body parts that could cripple or kill you). I'm trying to find an RPG that gives you combat skills in your skill tree but those skills don't buff stats in any way they just give you different moves to combat people with. I'm trying to find a good game like bushido blade but with rpg elements sprinkled in. Basically a realistic rpg with that requires skill to play not just farming.
aeaaaa No.15910130
>>15910120
Labyrinth of refrain is the closest that I can come to. It has a critical hit system that come in the form of gore hits. A form of damage that perminately lowers your enemy health by a fraction depending on the damaged area. How ever it's dependant on your luck stat.
8b12d2 No.15910160
>>15910120
>>15910130
I don't think he wants LoR, but it is a nice dungeon crawler. Unfortunately I do not have a picture of a gore crit happening, but the effects are visible in this picture. The character in the glowing red portrait with the red marker on her health bar was hit by a gore crit; I think it removed one of her arms. When your unit loses a limb that limb's equipment becomes effectively unequipped and their max health drops to that red bar. If they get gored in the head then they cannot be revived until you return to base and repair it.
f353a9 No.15910223
>>15910160
That's close to what I'm looking for, but no cigar. I'm looking for an rpg that has no healthbar. The closest I found to it was Kingdom Come: Deliverance, but that game is shit and also has stats.
8b12d2 No.15910250
>>15910223
It doubly isn't what you're looking for since you want your skills to matter in real time. They do to an extent in LoR, but only in the ways that most games like it ask for. Most of the battle is preparation beforehand when it comes to team comp and executing your planned strategy while adjusting for curve balls like getting a nasty gore crit on an important member.
Furthermore, the game is also mostly very easy with some difficult fights peppered throughout. It wasn't until the third boss of the post game that I had to really step back and plan builds for my party outside of "shove all the mages together and nuke the fuck out of everything."
10ddef No.15910259
Battlefield is an rpg. Prove me wrong faggots.
f0745b No.15910300
>>15908602
anything that has an exp bar of sorts
aeaaaa No.15910346
>>15910300
Statistical progression maybe part of an rpg but an rpg it does not make. Next thing you're gonna say is that stats are what make an rpg You're only somewhat right on this. even though every single game has numerical values affected by multiple mechanics and elements in the game even if they're not visible.
ef47ae No.15910353
On a tangent, but I really wish game devs would really sit down and think about what features to include in a game and why. There's a tendency especially in AAA to just toss in a laundry list of common features (upgrades, level ups, etc) without any real care for whether they actually improve the game. The core gameplay typically ends up shallow too, with all that fluff being a weak disguise.
>>15908899
More like anime titposting.
cb758e No.15910977
>>15910346
This is something that bothers me as well.
bf871d No.15911077
>>15908628
Game that estimates characters success via in-game stats check not players real world capabilities check.
c6c370 No.15911094
>>15910353
>>15910346
i didn't say what it really means, I am saying what it means today whether we like it or not. These days ANYTHING with an XP bar of sorts is an RPG.
>>15910353
this is the vein of thought I am coming from, they put in some kinda shallow ass grinding progression then their game "qualifies" as an "RPG". so that their games appear in every category on online game sites.
1f7bf2 No.15911135
Character and/or party customization that involves not only appearances, but their approach on how battles are engaged. Games that let a person choose several different and viable ways to complete a task or dungeon based on the skills they put points into or the party members they chose/made. As the game progresses, you can make the character branch off to fulfill multiple roles or become even better at its original role.
Not only are you planning on how to fight enemies, but how to navigate through the dungeon or non-combat scenarios. Where you can spend an hour or two just planning your party and how they'll change as the game goes on (multiprocessing, specialization, class changing, or a different party composition for certain scenarios).
62edf5 No.15911197
>>15908628
A game in which the player character's properties play a major role in determining whether a challenge can be overcome in a particular way, and the player plays a major role in defining what the character's properties are.
Leveling up without the ability to define anything about your character: not an RPG. Can do anything just by being good at the game and don't need to actually define your character as good at those things: not an RPG. Deciding what your character's strengths and weaknesses are, and then using those strengths to overcome challenges and having to deal with those weaknesses: RPG.
37eac4 No.15911213
>>15908761
Is it better than the first one?
005306 No.15911276
>>15908602
>it has stats and level progression so it's an RPG
No. That's just a type of micromanagement. You have to manage a party? Party is comprised of multiple characters who each have their own unique attributes and abilities? They need to work together in tandem in order to defeat foes efficiently? That's just being a motherfucking sportsball coach, even if the game is built around a fantasy setting.
>it's in a fantasy setting so it's an RPG
No. Your role playing can take place in any type of setting.
>it has some character dialogue options and maybe a few diverging pathways so it's an RPG
No, because most games that qualify as RPGs are very focused in their story and presentation, which means that the player tends to be a passive observer when he's not making moment to moment decisions about the actual gameplay. Even if your game does have some diverging story paths, most of the time these choices are meaningless and offer no substantial differences between choices. It's the kind of Pepsi vs Coke mentality that renders player agency impotent. As for character dialogue choices, they're equally pointless, and merely offer the player a way to slightly alter how their character responds to events in the world, but in an incredibly superficial sense.
>it has a character creation suite so it's an RPG
No. Even if your game has a character creator, it most likely means that all the content that is made for the protagonist will be generic as fuck, which means that your "unique" creation will only a byproduct of the limited potential of the system itself, and it cannot compare to what you could imagine for a tabletop game. This means that most of you'll have to spend most of your creative energy on coming up with dialogue or motivations, etc for your character inside your head, which will feel a bad fanfic that is being superimposed on the script somehow, rather than an organic narrative that flows along with your character's circumstances.
Honestly, let's just cut the bullshit and admit that no video game will ever achieve the amount of freedom that is achieved by tabletop games. This probably means that "RPG" should be replaced with some other, more meaningful, term, but I doubt that will happen.
299852 No.15911329
What does CRPG stand for?
bda46b No.15911348
A game can be considered an RPG if it fits two of these conditions:
>choices though a dialogue system
>character customization beyond linear leveling progression from weak to strong and beyond cosmetics, that allows for many different play styles
>NO first person perspective
600bad No.15911362
Reminder that there is no such thing as true narrative freedom in a video game which in turn means that any video game RPG is fundamentally different than a pen and paper RPG which in turn means that JRPGs are in fact RPGs just as much as any WRPG, CRPG, etc.
8fae39 No.15911376
aeaaaa No.15911504
>>15911135
>That elminage original pic
I still struggle in trying to progress let alone play that game. I've enjoyed dungeon travelers, xth generation, and etrian odyssey but this game isn't one that I feel like is worth the investment.
018be9 No.15913364
>>15910120
>>15910223
This actually sounds like a great idea tbh (I'm not aware of anyone who's done this yet). I have an idea of how to rework the rpg mechanics in a game based off of the percentage of your total health not on the health points you acquire by leveling up. So, basically your health percentage will stay unchanged during the entire game. What will happen (with stat boosters in the skill trees) is you increasing your stats by a very marginal amount based off how much percentage a type of monster has not on health points and of boosting your defences. This would allow you to beat the game (assuming you can Dodge and there are no hit boxes) to win the game without ever going into your skill tree (of course you'd definitely want to make it nearly impossible to do this tbh). Monsters/bosses however WOULD increase in health percentage and become smarter as the game goes on. The monsters however wouldn't get boosts to there stats as their stats would be interpreted at face value. If it says for example, you will do 10% damage to your enemies health, it will be that amount no matter what. If someone has created a game like this, it would certainly refresh rpgs to me.
e41019 No.15913370
e41019 No.15913372
600bad No.15913375
>>15910120
I am honestly not too familiar with it, but I know dwarf fort has characters hack each other's limbs off, and there is an rpg adventure mode for it.
627ffe No.15913433
>>15913364
You pretty much just highlighted the primary reason of why I don't play rpgs anymore…
>You can't take on a level 40 while while you are a level 10 because the enemies defence points were more than your attack points.
>You can't kill that person unless you dedicate DAYS in real time to level up and get your stat points up
Rpgs in there current are total shit and if someone did something like your talking about, it would definitely solve the glaring issue of you beating bosses and enemies with absolutely 0 effort being put into it.