/v/ - JACK FROST DIED FOR THIS

>>15836551

It's alright to have a heavily story focused game, they can still be enjoyable like a book is.

But replaying them is just like reading a book again.

You counter that by having branching narrative paths and character build options.

Also, action elements in the combat make it more enjoyable even it's something you've already done before.

>>15836567

I think Dark Souls proved you can have a great rpg, with good replay value, without needing a big, bloated, text heavy story.

Arcade style games are the anomaly here, they are designed to have a lot of replay value for obvious reasons. Most other games, not limited to RPGs or even single player games, have a lot less replay value and skill requirements

>>15836551

>JRPG

Slow paced story and lack of build diversity or much choice making. I don't remember how many builds I've tried in Fallout and TES games, especially Fallout 2 and Morrowind. I replayed them a million times without even completing them. I actually find replaying games boring and prefer RPGs that can be played with a single build forever though, like Skyrim and Fallout 4.

>>15836551

>Why do rpgs have awful replay value?

Because JRPGs are story based games and very time consuming, because they're often over 100hours long while arcade games are rarely longer than 20 minutes. The whole replay value of arcade games is the difficulty and/or multiplayer. As soon as you 1cc any arcade game you don't replay it more than twice either unless you're legit autistic.

>How can rpgs transcend this limitation and become more replayable?

By having multiple paths depending on your dialog choices/actions throughout the game like Shin Megami Tensei games for example.

If we go by time played you can typically get roughly equal value out of an RPG as most other games provided you aren't aiming for an autistic degree of mastery. We don't all need to beat every game on European Extreme or Dante Must Die without getting hit so we don't all need to invest 2000 hours into a given game regardless of the skill ceiling

RPGs can be made more replayable along a few different metrics: multiple story paths (for example, SaGa), varied character builds (some FFs and DQs), new game + modes, etc.

One thing I particularly like is when foreknowledge makes certain characters' words and actions start to make a lot of sense (Xenogears)

But no matter the method, it's hard to entice immediate replays of an RPG (except Chrono Trigger), much like there's little reason to reread a book the next day

>>15836571

>dark souls

>replay value

There's nothing remotely replayable about Blighttown, Depths, New Londo Ruins, Duke's Archives, Crystal Caves, Demon Ruins, Lost Izalith, and Tomb of Giants.

>>15836627

I'm pretty sure that's the entire game, mate.

>RPGs

>Posts fake nipshit J"RPGs"

>>15836571

>Dark Souls

>RPG

By what criterion? That you have classes and numbers go up? That doesn't make an RPG. Dark Souls is an action game with

stat progression…so basically it's just an action game. A very simple action game, in fact, that just does what it does pretty well.

>>15836628

That's the reason why I enjoy Dark Souls but at the same time hate it. 80% of the level design is just disgusting. Also I'm more of a CRPG fan who loves infinite saves and dying without repercussions. DS is the antithesis of CRPG design.

>>15836638

Yeah Dark Souls is just a Zelda-like game with class based builds taken and streamlined from Severance Blade of Darkness. Actually, the level design is way too linear to be a Zelda-like game, it's more like Ultima Underground or FROM's full 3D clone of it, King's Field.

>>15836642

>rpgs without consequences

What's the point of that? Don't get me wrong, I like that CRPGs don't force you in that way but still consequences are important in my book.

I agree that a lot of DS level design is just bullshit though, and some enemy design…and then it's combined for absolute bullshit sandwitches that exist just to kill you because you haven't died in a while.

>>15836651

>just because it's hard it's not simple

Bullet hell games tend to be hard but usually not complex. Learn the difference, faggot.

inb4 some obscure exception exclusively played by 3 people in Taiwan.

>>15836657

The game she is playing is known for having an extremely deep and complex scoring system. Actually most bullet hells have complex scoring systems, but this in one particular is very tricky.

They might look simple from the perspective of "just surviving on one credit" but in fact even surviving is very complex as the patterns become more complex as you enter the second or third loops, etc.

>>15836657

>8ch/v/

no one knows who this is, sad.

the state of a /v/

>>15836670

>>15836657

im just trying to imagine how good it must feel to let her do that to my dick like she did the joystick

>>15836654

Consequence in CRPG's lies in it's classes, builds, and choice making, not how much souls you lose after dying twice that can never be taken back without 3 hours of grinding. I can say that the CRPG consequence is usually more narrative-affecting and illusionary than other genres of video games where the consequence is game over screen. CRPG fans love the adventure rather than the punishment.

>>15836679

…who is it? for science

>>15836685

It's a trap, for one.

Also the best player in the world at that particular shooting game.

>>15836679

>caring about nobodies and has beens

The absolute state of /v/

>>15836691

>playing an easy, story game multiple times

Already beat it once.

Some things you consume again once every few years, some things you dont. I'm far more likely to leaf through an old copy of white dwarf than reread the lord of the rings every year.

OP seems like a real "film is for snobs, i prefer to switch my brain off and enjoy flicks" kind of guy.

>>15836702

>playing Chrono Trigger only once

Good counter bait.

>>15836688

>It's a trap, for one.

proof

Because most RPGs use a set story method rather than a predesigned world or procedural generation with a huge number of variables and prefabs. Some will tell you that RPGs are reliant on the stories, because those people are the same people who want to deconstruct video games down into walking simulators and text adventures again.

Games don't need replay value and replaying certain games constantly is a meme some of you fell for that basically crippled your tastes.

>>15836551

>Why do jrpgs have awful replay value?

Because they have story that puts you on rails and there's nothing you can do about it.

Exception to this are rogue-likes or some rpgs with sandbox mechanics.

>>How can rpgs transcend this limitation and become more replayable?

Roguelike.

>>15836768

>the mindset of someone who never got good at any game

They do have replay value if your character(s) can be built in meaningfully different ways with an impact on gameplay. Go play CRPGs if you want replayability, JRPGs are at their core adventure games with underwhelming combat, which doesn't hold up well after multiple playthroughs.

>rpgs

>japanese "rpgs"

Get better taste, dumbfuck. It's because JRPGs are for low IQ retards that want to grind for 10 hours to see a cutscene so they can continue on and repeat that again.

They have terrible play value. Why would the replay value be any better?

>mash x for 5 hours

>avoid every non-essential battle possible to make the game harder

>mash x, but also sometimes use a healing item

>>15836824

>if a 120 hour long rpg isn't prime material for replaying right after you finish it, it's bad

Flaccid retort m8

>>15837056

>120hours game

>80hours spent spamming (X) on trash encounters

>20hours spent clicking menus at "shops"

>10hours of cutscenes and poorly written anime dialogue ^_^;

>8hours of backtracking and talking to NPCs to trigger new dialogue events

>2hour spent beating bosses and solving "puzzles" meant for 12year olds

Now THAT is a challenge!

>>15837113

>implying JRPGs are even role playing games

wew

>>15836551

I want to take a nap on Fio's butt.

>>15836627

Blighttown and tomb of giants sure, but the rest are pretty cool

>>15836626

>Given that JRPGs lack both it's no surprise they're shit and have no replay value.

>Take New Vegas for instance

Top wew, as expected of a westaboo numale. He even used a Simpsons image.

>>15836651

So what is this game/who is this? Out of curiosity

>>15837146

>tfw the muh western rpg meme is just /tg/ drop outs that cant admit they want a moddable dating sim.

>>15836768

Nah, you're a fucking casual, there's no better feeling than mastering a game, that's what replayability should be about not "oh geez what would happen if I took the left path instead of the right one to get to the same place"

>>15836551

>Why do rpgs have awful replay value?

Combination of time necessary to clear them, amount of thought that might be needed for a run with regards to planning out character builds, exploring the main/side quests, grinding, etc. And overall how good the story and mechanics are because nobody wants to slog through 120+ hours of RPG nowaday if they didn't like it the first time through. Even if they didn't complete everything on their first run.

>while arcade-style games have nearly infinite replay value that they get better and better as your skill improves.

Diminishing returns on arcade games though. They have simpler gameplay loops and simpler narratives, but it's not like everyone is going to keep playing Tetris as obsessively as the pro-circuit or dedicated fans will. Arcade games are something people will pick up and drop depending on availability and personal interest just like RPGs. The difference is it's easier to convince someone to put in 60 hours playiing metal Slug since it's a shorter game, has co-op, and isn't turn based. Than it would be to get someone to sit through 60 hours of the newest Tales game.

>How can rpgs transcend this limitation and become more replayable?

Some things games can do to make RPGs more replayable are:

<Become real-time based games.

<Stop inflating the story to <30 hour experiences.

<Stop with the feature bloat, streamline the experience down to a handful of mechanics that the player is guaranteed to interact with

<Stop making combat braindead, make enemy encounters challenging across the board by doing more than health sponges

<create interesting combat mechanics in general

<Reduce cutscene bloat

<Make alternate endings worth the time investment

<give players more choice in the story

The biggest offenders are JRPGs as they are bar-none the worst grouping of RPGs when it comes to replayability. So heavily focused on the story that in current iterations gameplay can get ripped from the players hands because the plot dictates you spend an hour advancing dialogue or watching a movie.

>>15837159

>>15837159

Game: Battle Garegga

Player: T3-Kamui

Kamui is the current World Record holder, has been playing Battle Garegga (and only Battle Garegga) for over 20years.

To new players it just looks like she's dodging bullets and shooting shit, but actually the scoring strategies are super complicated and require a lot of finesse to pull off. Here is a demonstration video where she explains some of it.

>>15836551

>Why do rpgs have awful replay value?

It's inherent to their design, that's just how games with lots of dialogue are- you already know the story and get bored tapping through it again. Plus the combat is slow and not based on any realtime skill- You solve it, and that's it. With realtime combat, there is always something you can get a little bit better at, or always some new combo or setup to try out.

Rpgs cannot transcend this limitation, and there is no reason to.

>>15837181

For an example of the complexity of what effects your scoring:

>The default autofire rate is 8.6Hz.

>The actual steps (and rank multipliers) are: 8.6 (1:7 frames) - 22 rank/frame (x1) 10 (1:6 frames) - 22 (x1) 12 (1:5 frames) - 33 (x1.5) 15 (1:4 frames) - 44 (x2) 20 (1:3 frames) - 66 (x3) 30 (1:2 frames) - 88 (x4)

>note that once your rank-per-frame has been increased, it CAN NOT be decreased. This makes it doubly important to not set autofire rate too high too soon.

>Another interesting fact - at Stunfest 2013, Kamui mentioned to me that she knows the tapping rhythms to get the exact autofire frequencies off by heart. This is so she can execute her strategies on any controller. Now _that's_ skill.

>>15837193

In another part she says

>Kamui: I suicide here for bomb fragments, and to use invincibility to destroy the remaining boss parts. I aim to destroy the body after I've destroyed the central propellor and main turret.

>ICR: A sword destroyed the central propellor so she lost 50k, but otherwise this was a good first boss kill.

So not only how fast you kill things matters but the order and how good you are at it (the better you are at killing shit the harder the game gets so you need to suicide to reduce rank, etc)

>>15837181

>>15837193

>>15837204

That's… incredible. I mean I've never heard of a strategy in a bullet hell that involves losing a life on purpose or knowing exact rate of fire - to me they were always about player skill and simply clearing it quickly without deaths to save time/get a high multiplier. Shows how much I know. Cheers for the info!

>>15837181

>click video

>expecting cute jap girl to explain vidya

>it's text

You bastard.

>>15836551

replaying shit is stupid

It's not even that they don't have much replayability - because a lot of them do, or would, it's just that they're so goddamned long that it's a huge waste of time to even bother. You could rip through 20 decent length modern-ish titles, or hundreds upon hundreds of arcade/classic games in the time it would take you to slog through one 80 hour JRPG.

This idea of dollar per entertainment hour has warped the idea of value proposition, since it puts undue importance on the time invested in a title rather than the quality of a title making you more willing to invest time into it. Shooters should be no more than 5~6 hours, and RPGs no more than 20~30 hours. Some of us have shit to do.

And yes, prices should fall in accordance to the lower production budgets.