5694a5 No.15654251
How do Japanese classics - such as Earthbound, SMT, Xenogears, Final Fantasy, Tactics Ogre, etc - hold up when compared to Western classics - Deus Ex, Arcanum, Warcraft, C&C, Thief, etc ?
I'm sure we all know that Western games these days aren't that great and I'd even argue that your typical Japanese game isn't quite as good as it used to be - sure, you'll get a good "gem" every once in a while like Nier Automata or Wonderful 101 - but the majority seems to be pitifully similar JRPG's with not much differentiating themselves.
So I ask, which side did it better, and for how long? Of course, you can choose whether to make it about game genres, but remember that there's not much overlap in some cases. Sure, in the RPG category, you'll see many from the West and the East, but, for instance, I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese RTS/Stealth/CRPG. Similarly, I've only ever seen very few Western Shoot-Em-Ups or Fighting games.
152b1d No.15654270
honestly most are so different it's like comparing apples to oranges
obviously the japs outlasted the west though
934e91 No.15654274
>How do games from entirely different genres hold up against each other
Not sure what you're expecting anyone to even say here. They did shit differently.
0ae0b0 No.15654278
A classic is a classic, it doesn't exactly matter where it came from unless you're a weeaboo.
But if we really have to choose, I'd say Deus Ex beats nearly every "classic" JRPG out there, but then I'd also say SMT3 beats nearly every "classic" WRPG out there. I honestly think they tie, since those two games are both fucking masterpieces. As for how long, however, I think you answered your own question: The Japs still make a gem every once in a while, but the West makes nothing good at all. So I guess the Japs win this. Also:
>I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese RTS/Stealth/CRPG
>Stealth
Metal Gear Solid you fucking dumb shit
a35154 No.15654285
>>15654251
Today, western games have gotten really shitty. Japanese games are getting shitty too, but not as fast. But old classic games? Western games were far superior in those days. Jap knockoffs don't hold a candle to the great western classics.
a22a7d No.15654298
>implying le quirky :DDD Dragon Quest clone for autistic children and hipsters is a classic
5694a5 No.15654318
>>15654285
Is there a Japanese game in existence with quite as much depth as, say, Deus Ex or Arcanum?
af16d7 No.15654332
>>15654251
You said it yourself that the two scratch different itches. I can liken it to enjoying art of one region, then going into a different room to enjoy more art from another region. I would say both have their pros and cons but at least they exist so I can enjoy them nonetheless.
000000 No.15654333
jap "classics" are cheap copies of western games
only more linear and in anime style with gay feminine men wile western games sport masculine women
212119 No.15654453
The biggest think to consider is that Japanese games were designed around a controller and hole consoles and over time those have remained enjoyable from a usability standpoint, but to compare against most pre-2000 games, especially those with UIs designed around 800x600 or worse resolutions (getting into the pre-Windows days) you have games that are difficult to play on a modern system.
That being said, I am heavily biased. The east excelled at 2D platformers, metrovanias, and JRPGs where the west excelled at cRPGs, aRPGs and proto-FPS games (lDOOM, Quake, Half-Life) where as Japan had several notable shooting games in the late 90s like Metal Gear Solid and Syphron Filter.
2919ea No.15654467
>>15654453
> Metal Gear Solid
>shooting game
35b3b1 No.15654476
>>15654453
>shooting games in the late 90s like Metal Gear Solid
MGS is anything but a solid "shooting" game.
212119 No.15654479
>>15654467
>>15654476
You have gun, you shoot thing. Shooting game.
6e2f23 No.15654559
>>15654479
>You have character
>You play the role of that character
>Roleplaying game
458186 No.15654866
>>15654298
Dragon Quest is a Black Onyx clone is a Wizardry clone
9adc29 No.15654872
458186 No.15654889
>>15654872
This western game that is a rip off of Wizardry is what started any interest in Japan over turn based RPGs and DQ is a ripoff of it.
7e1f39 No.15654905
>>15654251
My personal bias is towards the Japanese side of things because western RPGs were trying to recreate the pen and paper roleplay experience and weighed too heavily on roleplay and freedom that was impossible. Japanese games recognized the limits of the medium and tried to create an entertaining experience with what they had.
I'd say that in hindsight, neither has really aged well. Western games are now also recognizing the limits of "open-endedness" and are instead going for a sense of immersion within a somewhat contained narrative. Japanese games have more technology to play for more interesting mechanics (strategy systems, action systems) And of course… Dark Souls exists…
263f5b No.15654914
>there are people posting here that don't know jrpgs are mostly wizardry clones
80d5c2 No.15654923
>>15654251
>muh samey jrpgs
You have 20 years of Atlus backlog to make you realize you've been lied to for all your life.
458186 No.15654935
File: 4e3a5d74c59a1c2⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 284.64 KB, 614x1024, 307:512, 8978b7d778cdd23518d574c0e4….jpg)
>pretending Japanese RPGs aren't rebranded Western RPGs
5694a5 No.15654942
>>15654923
I've played a lot of JRPG and few have been Atlus. Ever since I played Etrian Odyssey I dropped it and other atlus games in my backlog since I learned they're all pretty much the same and require a lot of grinding.
To better gauge how different you think JRPGs are, would you mind posting 4 examples of JRPG that have little to do with one another?
>>15654905
Western Games have indeed weighed heavily on player freedom, but I don't think they did so poorly. On average western games have had more mechanics than your average Japanese game. The most noteworthy of the latter would be any of the Metal Gear Solid games. Most everything else is quite straight-forward. That's most likely because - as you say - Western games followed DnD closely, which was complex and alienating to newfags.
f85fd9 No.15654944
>>15654251
>Japanese/American console Games
Great gameplay design but many are reashes or rethreads of previous designs and can feel too samey, Resident Evil being literally 3D Metroid in concept is a good example
>European/Slav/American PC games
Great concept and ambition which can make them feel more unique and innovative but many times broken in some places, every game by Ion Storm is a good example
>which side did it better?
Japan in the 70/80s, West in the 90s/00s and both are pretty shit nowadays so I pick the good ones from both regions because I'm neither a normalfaggot or a weeaboo.
>>15654914
Most people weeaboos here have never played a Ultima game nigger
458186 No.15654950
>>15654944
What are your favorite Japanese video games from the 1970's?
458186 No.15654972
reminder that Japan was doing jack shit for video games in the 70s
f85fd9 No.15654978
>>15654950
Space Invaders and Gun Fight
Early 70s is West easily though
>>15654972
They were doing your boomer mother while high on cocaine.
5694a5 No.15654983
>>15654950
>>15654978
What did Japan do in the 70's besides Pong consoles? Are there some arcade games I'm forgetting?
458186 No.15654984
>>15654978
Nice you googled early microprocessor arcade games great job you've never played gun fight
458186 No.15654992
>>15654983
SEGA and a couple others was making a lot of electromechanical arcades that there's no reason to list then moved on to discrete logic games you can't emulate so there's no reason to mention them but only for a short while then the 80s kicked in
263f5b No.15655012
>>15654944
>Most people weeaboos here have never played a Ultima game nigger
Fucking disgusting. I bet they don't even remember when it used to be one talked about computer games, not vidya. I'm feeling old.
f85fd9 No.15655191
>>15654984
I was playing 2 player SonSon before your balls dropped
>>15655012
Most people weren't even born at that point anon most here are in their mid 20s and plenty actually think fondly of 7th Gen consoles.
Most actually like overmarketed mediocre trash like Final Fantasy VII and Halo
b1eef9 No.15656232
>>15655012
What if the only Ultima games I've played was 8 and the Underworld games?
80d5c2 No.15656392
>>15654942
>muh grinding
You don't dislike 'grinding': what you dislike is to invest time in what you pre-emptively judget is not worth it. If you were a honest anon and not a normalfag redditor, you'd admit that in your gaming background there are already huge timesinks: that you played solely because of social pressure. This is why anon hates on games, but is mortally afraid of saying what he actually plays.
I've been on an Atlus binge since trying out Catherie, last year. Nocturne, Strange Journey, Raidou 2, Persona 5: they're all SMT mainline and spinoff series, sharing the basic demon fusion setup (edgy pokemon collection). The entire real world setup is lightyears ahead of western gaming: wherein any social commentary in the west is always about racism or injustice, here you find things like conformism and cynicism discussed at large.
But of course jewry is up your alley, so here comes the 10 top reasons why there's still imperfections there. It doesn't matter: the right way with mistakes is still a ways ahead of an entire industry based on cloning LOTR and Aliens.
8584b0 No.15656414
Classic JRPGs tend to be easier to get into than classic WRPGs. Western RPGs tend to try recreating paper and pen but poorly, so they end up giving you a ton of options in what your character can do but most of them are useless.
ef8549 No.15656427
Jap games tend to gravitate from being "kind of good" to "really good," but are rarely exceptional.
Even their very best games aren't usually all that great, especially when put against their western counterparts from the same era, but they are also rarely outrageously bad.
In contrast, western games vary very wildly from each other; you often have titles that belong on the bottom of a muddy barrel and those that are outstanding in every way.
The japs could never make something like Heroes of Might and Magic III or Lawbreakers.
In the end, they serve different purposes – the japs always trying to deliver an "experience," while western devs wanted to make the games fun.
I like both for what they accomplish.
>>15654318
Probably not.
452af4 No.15656436
>>15656392
Do yourself a favor and play the first two Megaten games.
458186 No.15656534
51c2b1 No.15656594
>>15654251
>SMT, Xenogears, Final Fantasy,
Still great games. Haven't played the rest besides Earthbound, but never made it very far. It's kind of "too slow" for my taste.
>Western games these days aren't that great and I'd even argue that your typical Japanese game isn't quite as good as it used to be
I blame graffix faggotry and scripted press X to win pseudo-gameplay. Nowadays, the games I enjoy the most are from AA budget devs like From Soft, Platinum, Team Ninja, Atlus but also Nintendo since they still focus on gameplay. Not to mention Nintendo hardware doesn't really allow them to have most realistic hardware anyways which in my opinion is a good thing. Look at Dragon Quest 11 for example where the PS4/PC version look more up to date, but gameplay wise the 3DS version wayy superior. And it even has a classic 16bit mode which is really cool.
>>15654889
And hamburgers are from Germany, but that doesn't mean the American version isn't better.
51c2b1 No.15656597
>>15656594
>have most realistic hardware
I meant graphics.
3034bf No.15656646
>rpgs
>classic
>rpgs
>good
>rpgs
>even remotely playable
You'd have a better discussion if you were comparing any other genre. The fact is, both JRPGs and WRPGs fucking suck: neither is any worse or any better than the other. They're simply not good games.
458186 No.15656737
>>15656594
>Anything Japanese being better than Wizardry
fucking pleb
baa13b No.15656753
Reminder that the Japanese never produced an artist on the level of, for example, Michelangelo. The asian perspective isn't based on reality or truth but rather social perception through 'face', which has pros and cons.
f85fd9 No.15656762
>>15656594
Go play Wizardry you disgusting weeaboo pleb.
And American hamburguers are fucking trash, most of the food there is
Anglos have no culture of their own and instead import it like jews
>>15656534
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
918790 No.15656764
>>15656232
Well the earlier ultima games were btfo by pretty much any jrpg. Underworld is still a pretty unique experience despite some imitators down the line.
I dunno what goons are trying to solve with the "le jrpgs are just wizardy/ultima clones." Hard to find any similarity at this point. I mean shit, the entire fps genre is just a crippled smash tv until gayben himself got inspired by mario 64 somehow and the fps genre leaned towards cinematic hitscan games, removing the smash tv qualities.
It's almost like tge industry goes back and forth with their influences. Japanese tend to have a solid grasp on game play design still, maybe due to old blood or the way game design is approached there. Game design in the west is treated more like a medium instead of fun. Then you have slavs who don't know what they're doing but they sure make some novel if not very flawed shit.
2ce5d5 No.15656766
>>15656646
go back you underage redditor
2ce5d5 No.15656771
>>15656762
this yuronigger subhuman didn't get his daily dose of americum
f85fd9 No.15656786
>>15656764
>Well the earlier ultima games were btfo by pretty much any jrpg
Citation needed
Dragon Quest was literally Ultima for console and gwaphicsfags
>If you criticize Japanese development you are a goon
Everytime
But it's totally not legitimate for me to call you a weeaboo despite being a term used on people who blindly fellate anything by the Japanese region like you're doing right now.
>Hard to find any similarity at this point.
If you're blind and new
>Japanese tend to have a solid grasp on game play design still
Absolutely not, most new stuff that isn't based on some older title is a poorly designed mess.
>>15656771
Whiter than you melting potter
3034bf No.15656956
>>15656766
You can't compare RPGs from different regions and conclude that one region is better than the other. The base game mechanics which both JRPGs and WRPGs have are so bad that anything unique is pointless. This thread could have been about actual classics, such as comparing Western Beat-Em-Ups to their Japanese equivalents, or comparing Shooters. Instead, OP chose a shitty genre.
0adf96 No.15657131
>>15654559
Sounds like the logic they use to justify the J"RPG" genre.
5694a5 No.15657278
>>15656956
Deus Ex, System Shock 1 + 2, Fallout 1 + 2; all of these are WRPGS. Do you argue that these are bad games? Or are you just baiting.
3034bf No.15657294
>>15657278
Deus Ex isn't an RPG, it has RPG mechanics. The rest are just plain shit.
f85fd9 No.15657303
>>15657294
>Deus Ex isn't an RPG
>He's never played System Shock
See >>15656766
5694a5 No.15657308
>>15657294
Pray tell, what is your idea of a good game?
baa13b No.15657319
>>15656956
>base game mechanics which both JRPGs and WRPGs have are so bad that anything unique is pointless
> comparing Western Beat-Em-Ups to their Japanese equivalents, or comparing Shooters
Intentionally vague and cherry-picking genres to give Japs a better shot or Icycalm-clone?
3034bf No.15657341
>>15657308
Generally a good game is one that, regardless of how you're playing, how much time you spend on it, what your strategies are and how good you are at the game, you'll have fun just playing it. Even if you lose, you'll want to come back to the game to play it again. RPGs don't meet this criteria in any way.
>>15657319
There's no fucking discussion to be had here. RPGs, either Japanese or Western, are utter garbage.
918790 No.15657350
>>15656786
>Dragon Quest was literally Ultima for console and gwaphicsfags
The same game with improvements. Unless you are going to argue that looking better is now a bad thing, in which case you're a lost cause.
>If you criticize Japanese development you are a goon
If you do broad stroke statements and stereotypes and pull the le ultima and wizardry meme, you're probably a goon with nothing to add to any conversation.
>But it's totally not legitimate for me to call you a weeaboo despite being a term used on people who blindly fellate anything by the Japanese region like you're doing right now.
Weeaboo is for people who wish they were Japanese. I don't want to be Japanese. I'm plenty critical of Japanese games but the problems with their releases tend to be game specific, rather than industry specific. Nier Automata for example is too easy. Final Fantasy 15 was terribly mismanaged and square was desperate to recoup any costs. The West has a problem with censorship, minority worship and political correctness as well as a lack of direction for game play design as games are mostly seen as a medium, an artform, and not necessarily entertainment.
>If you're blind and new
The true mark of an oldfag, advertising it with an insecure tone.
>Absolutely not, most new stuff that isn't based on some older title is a poorly designed mess.
No examples, good work.
baa13b No.15657370
>>15657341
Vagueposting for days.
ba5782 No.15657371
>>15657341
So tell us, O Wise One, which games do you consider good?
66f773 No.15657411
>>15654251
Japanese games have been dominant for as long as there has been a Japanese video game industry. The only examples of the west putting up a fight was the Atari/Midway/Acclaim/Williams arcade era and their respective home ports, and a relative handful of PC games. What you're witnessing now is not entirely an aberration, it's a return to the status quo. Western devs almost universally want to make video games into something they're not. Imagine how shitty the Japanese market would be if they were all as Hollywood-inspired as Kojima. That's what the western industry is.
2fd6cc No.15657416
>>15654251
IMO in terms of story/gameplay they're equally matched. In terms of OST's, japanese almost always win.
918790 No.15657420
>>15657411
Midway made some of my favorite arcade games. Still love the home version of Gauntlet Dark Legacy.
0cda9d No.15657461
Western and Japanese classics were both excellent in the 90s and first half of 00s for their own reasons. I recall, when I was a kid, playing western games more on DOS & Windows computers and japanese games on Nintendo consoles/handhelds I only started playing on Sony systems after leaving the household.
It still pisses me off the western vidya industry has been in shambles for years, and the indie scene is a goddamn joke (especially the devs who try to do, or are inspired by, "retro" shit but they just ape without understanding what made those games great in the first place). Japanese vidya is still alright these days although it suffered the same industry problems minus the pozz
37fe3e No.15671254
Seems to me than Western games valued new ideas and pushing tech, whereas Japanese games valued a high level of polish. Due to this, Japanese games were consistently better, but less adventurous.
86f013 No.15671265
>>15654278
>Metal Gear Solid you fucking dumb shit
He said game, not movie you Mongoloid
3b61f1 No.15671628
>>15657278
Fallout 1 and 2 actually are shitty fucking games and I've had about enough of the praise these games receive from nostalgia-dazed faggots.
000000 No.15671726
>>15654251
Western games were always made by leftists, thus, they were always shit.
f48884 No.15672042
It's not easy to generalize, but japanese classics are numerous but more formulaic while western classics are quite diverse but more scarce. The fact is that jRPGs spawned from Ultima and D&D, and continue to take cues from abroad.
887801 No.15672068
>>15671734
Apples are superior in every way. Prove me wrong.
185c6b No.15672098
>>15672068
Modify your statement.
4d837d No.15672099
>>15672098
You can eat apples with a lot more food. Toppings for pizza, mixed with oatmeal, apple pie, hamburgers seared with apple juice, apple sauce, with lemon juice, perfect side dish for breafast/lunch/dinner, and a perfect snack.
45db78 No.15672113
>>15654889
>>15654866
but Yuji Hori cites Ultima as his inspiration, not Black Onyx
293c92 No.15672114
>>15672098
big citrus strikes again
45db78 No.15672119
>>15656594
> And it even has a classic 16bit mode which is really cool.
The best part of that is how it uses it. It is displayed on the bottom screen at all times and actions on the top screen are represented on it as well as they can for cinematics.
But how it affects controls is where it really takes the cake: using the stick moves you relative to the top screen's camera, but using the Dpad moves you according to the bottom. And NPC dialogue appears on whichever screen you last used the input for.
e33f34 No.15672713
>>15654251
JRPGs and CRPGs don't really mix, but SRPGs/TRPGs on both sides are an interesting case of essentially the same thing interpreted differently by different cultures.
3f43a9 No.15672721
>>15671254
Plenty of Japanese games pushed technology. I don't really see many "new ideas" in Western games.
e7841f No.15672799
>>15656753
That's fine, I just like video games and some Akira Toriyama drawings will ever matter more to me than some renaissance artist.
185c6b No.15677683
>>15672099
While you actually have some information this time you still haven't proven it's superiority over oranges.
876476 No.15685774
>>15654251
Western games from the 90s are better than Japanese games from the 90s. Otherwise Japanese classics are superior.
a19256 No.15685958
Super Metroid and System Shock both came out in 1994, try and think about that a lot when given this type of OP.
The "West" which I am guessing is anything other then Japan is about much more indepth gameplay/mechanics, creativity, and immersive elements. Japan is much more traditional well rounded gameplay/mechanics and leans towards the safe game design. Wither which one is better is completely subjective. I personally have since the beginning have played from both pools of games. Both are good, but both can be bad. As for modern times, fuck the industry.
3f43a9 No.15685966
5694a5 No.15685987
>>15685978
I think he means Japanese classics
3f43a9 No.15685988
>>15685978
>Western games from the 90s are better than Japanese games from the 90s
a19256 No.15685995
>>15685987
>>15685988
Oh okay.
Age of Empires II
Baldur’s Gate
Command & Conquer
Diablo
Fucking Doom
Fallout
Planescape Torment
QUAKE
Starcraft
System Shock 1 and 2
Warcraft II
Deus Ex
Hexen
Blood
Theif
TIE Fighter
Decent
f2fc6f No.15685996
If we're just talking about RPGs then western RPGs were better in the 2D era. But none of them transferred well into 3D. Everything after throne of bhaal sucked ass.
3f43a9 No.15686000
>>15685995
Now what makes them better than any game you would compare them to
f2fc6f No.15686003
>>15685995
I'll help.
Z
Gobliiins
Mechwarrior
Myth: The Fallen Lords
Nox
a19256 No.15686006
>>15686000
My personal taste goes towards mouse and keyboard controls, Rts, Fps and heavy mechanic Dungeon and Dragons Rpg based games?
f2fc6f No.15686007
>>15686000
Those games beat anything japan put out in the 90s, except Metal Gear Solid and the N64s powerhouses.
a19256 No.15686016
>>15686007
>N64 powerhouses
Why do you faggots always ruin life?
f2fc6f No.15686019
>>15686016
It's very late, I'm very tired. I can't be bothered to find the proper words for "exceedingly good game".
a19256 No.15686021
>>15686019
Yeah are right though, there is only one good game on the n64.
3f43a9 No.15686023
>>15686007
Nah, none of them are better than Mario 64, Bulk Slash, SOTN, DKC2, Chrono Trigger, Silent Hill, Mega Man X, just to name a few. Some of them are outright mediocre and have massive moments of weak game play time like Quake's Episode 3, Doom's episode 2, Fallout as a whole being a tedious RPG, Hexen being a plainly mediocre game.
It's just odd choices of basic bitch PC games everyone has played. A lot of which aren't particularly good or are held up with meme status alone. I mean Planescape Torment? Really? A game renown for its shit game play and lets be honest, not very good of a story that has been memed into relevance.
>>15686006
Obviously, I used to feel the same way.
f2fc6f No.15686045
>>15686023
You just like sidescrollers.
And quake has no weaknesses. It was FPS perfection. Sure, unreal could compete, but after the death of 3dfx quake established it's dominance.
3f43a9 No.15686052
>>15686045
>You just like sidescrollers.
I like everything.
> quake has no weaknesses
the nail gun
> unreal could compete
nah some of those levels are just plain garbage.
a19256 No.15686060
>>15686023
>Mario 64
Wow, nice tech demo
>Bulk Slash
What the fuck?
>SOTN
Super Metroid was better and System Shock is better then Super Metroid.
>DKC2
Another fucking 2d platformer
>Chrono Trigger
It took the entire country of Japan and "dream dev team" to make a shitty comparison to the jewish bible with Dragon Quest 1 turn based mechancis. Its not an Rpg.
>Silent Hill
Tank controls are a joke, it isnt scary at all and has the graphics of a fucking sega cd FM video.
>Mega Man X
Another FUCKING 2d platformer that can't even come close to Mega Man 2.
Good fucking job reddlt, glad you spaced that out for me. You never felt the same way and are full of fucking bullshit. Now go back to where you belong.
5e2f3d No.15686069
>>15686045
Only three of those games are sidescrollers and one of those was made by UK fags.
Neither of you have a clue what you are talking about.
3f43a9 No.15686078
>>15686060
>Wow, nice tech demo
most big Western games in a nutshell
>System Shock is better then Super Metroid.
Nah, System Shock has a lot of issues. If you want a good first person metroidvania style game Powerslave is much better.
>Another fucking 2d platformer
Would you prefer another fucking point & click shooter?
> Its not an Rpg.
And all RTS games are a clone of Herzog Zwei, a Japanese console game.
>Tank controls are a joke
git gud
>Mega Man 2.
too easy to be taken seriously
opinions discarded
a19256 No.15686086
>>15686078
Good, now go back to reddlt.
3f43a9 No.15686093
>>15686086
Too afraid to argue? Pathetic.
5694a5 No.15686094
>>15686078
>All RTS games are a clone of Herzog Zwei
You just swing in from Reddit Town?
3f43a9 No.15686096
>>15686094
>he doesn't know herzog zwei
Casuals often out themselves.
f2fc6f No.15686104
What are some good PC side scrollers? There was prehistorik. Can't remember any others.
Now here's a fucking gem I can remember though. Crusader: No Remorse.
3f43a9 No.15686112
>>15686104
Most kinda sucked, some of the better ones are kinda mediocre in the grand scheme of things like Monolith's Claw. The only got good more recently when they started blatantly copying Japanese games.
f92084 No.15686144
>>15686104
prehistorik 2
duke
jack jazzrabbit
plenty of titles from Apogee collection
98520a No.15686148
>>15656753
No they've never produced art on that level that I'm aware of, but they did produce some pretty awesome art even before contact with the west. Especially for the feudal era period. I don't think it's a coincidence their feudal era largely lined up with ours even down to the same concepts of a warrior/honor class. They're basically always just 2 or 3 steps behind us. I would guess they probably could have reached close to where we are today but a few hundred years later. They were a mostly stagnant society but not completely stagnant like other East Asian countries. Then again I think the Japanese might be some sort of Siberian/ partially white going way back group.
f2fc6f No.15686155
>>15686148
Their feudal era lasted until the 19th century dude. It doesn't line up with european culture at all.
98520a No.15686156
>>15686148
Meant to say warrior poets as well, it was a western concept but also a Japanese concept. They developed their own court jesters, their own theater and music, all of it pretty much lined up with the west(slightly later) before they even had contact with the west and yeah it wasn't quite on our level, but it was still pretty good.
a19256 No.15686169
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>15686104
>>15686144
2nd Jack Jazzrabbit, also Commander Keen series, Duke Nukem 2d, and MOTHER FUCKING PICKLE WARS.
3f43a9 No.15686177
>>15686144
>>15686169
you're gonna burst his bubble
edbb8d No.15686195
>>15686007
>Those games beat anything japan put out in the 90s, except Metal Gear Solid
Thief blows metal gear solid out of the fucking water.
f2fc6f No.15686200
>>15686177
No I was genuinely curious about PC side scrollers, I never played them at all.
There was a weird civil war era game I played that was aside scroller. It was probably an educational game,
Oh yeah, how could I forget: Prince of Persia (duh), Aladdin, Lion King. Although those might have been japanese.
8e09dc No.15686207
>>15686021
This one?
>>15686045
>And quake has no weaknesses.
<Super Nailgun being literally a Nailgun that deals twice damage at the cost of 2 nails per shot and there being no reason to use the Nailgun after picking up the Super, or there being a reason for the Nailgun to take up a separate slot, at least the regular shotgun is the starting weapon and is mildly more useful at longer distances than the super shotgun
<the super nailgun's role is a very high DPS weapon which you use in situations where you can't safely use RL/GL, which is balanced out by its high ammo consumption and low maximum ammo count so you won't use it as much, yet the lightning gun is completely identical in function to the super nailgun with hitscan instead of projectiles (which doesn't matter outside of MP), except it even deals even more damage and has less ammo, acting like some kind of super SUPER nailgun and creating some unneeded redundancy
<hitstun is largely determined by RNG and often feels like the game throws you a free bone when you manage to stun an enemy, moreover it makes your weapons feel less satisfying to use when enemy hit reactions just happen at random
<nightmare difficulty is rather broken in that it makes Ogres easier to deal with than on other difficulties because they don't move after shooting because of how fast they fire
<the perfect-tracking homing method for vore projectiles is absolute cancer and annoying to get rid of when it gets close to you because of its ridiculous turning speed, remember all those times you were dancing around voreballs to get them to stop following you?
<there's no reason why the shotgun and super shotgun/nailgun and super nailgun couldn't be fused into single weapons to take up less keybinds on the keyboard
<Spawns
<shub-niggurath and its level is a giant meme, any boss fights which comes down to solving a puzzle because of how largely they deviate from the core gameplay loop is complete shit by default, when was telefragging ever a part of the core gameplay (other than MP)? same goes for cthon
<gunplay is wank, it being an early 3D game, weapon animation is largely accomplished by wobbling the viewmodel around to imply the weapon being fired, and enemy hit reactions happen at random, moreover consider how the shotguns felt more satisfying to use in Arcane Dimensions because the shotguns actually fired projectiles there, it was somehow more satisfying to hit an enemy with projectiles you can see and imagine the impact of than with invisible tracer beams
>>15686093
Please shut the fuck up
b8b0af No.15686209
>>15686177
>>15686112
>>15686093
>>15686078
>>15686000
>>15686052
>>15686023
>>15686000
>>15685988
>>15685966
>>15672721
Here we can see a rabid weeaboo Sonygger foaming from the mouth.
Feel free to prove him wrong as he will be sure to move the goalposts.
3f43a9 No.15686212
>>15686195
they aren't really comparable in terms of design. Tenchu is better.
>>15686200
I'm just saying you're gonna try a lot of these, realize they're knock offs or just not very good, or screw up basic design principles and you're not gonna be too happy. There's two major Aladdin games, one is Japanese.
f2fc6f No.15686224
>>15686212
Thief is amazing. MGS competes with in in terms of quality and story telling only. If looking glass studios were any good at making character models and environments that don't look like shit, thief would be the best game ever made.
a19256 No.15686232
>>15686224
>muh cinematic experience
Fuck off kid.
f92084 No.15686233
>>15686177
don't you mean your bubble?
>>15686200
PoP was western, Lion King was Westwood's port of the SNES/Genesis and I can't remember which version of Aladdin got ported to DOS. I think it was SNES.
f2fc6f No.15686242
>>15686232
A Hind D?
Oh shit I just remember though that MGS is out on PC. No shitty ps1 emulation is needed.
3f43a9 No.15686245
>>15686224
Thief is very good, it has a lot of issues and some of the levels especially in Thief Gold are just plain awful. In the stock game Strange Bedfellows and Escape are bad levels. The simulation-stealth mechanics are great and the sound design and how it's treated properly like a full mechanic still beats plenty of modern games and how they handle noise as a mechanic.
It's probably one of the best Western games ever made.
>>15686233
Of the ones you listed I only haven't played Prehistorik 2. I've never seen scrolling that poorly done before. Pretty crazy it's from 1993 where all this stuff was figured out in the previous decade.
f92084 No.15686252
>>15686233
Just looked it up, SNES Aladdin was developed by Capcom and Genesis version was a collabiration between Disney Software and Virgin Games. Genesis version was ported to DOS by the same two devs.
98520a No.15686294
>>15686155
I would say their biggest difference with us is that they lacked the urge to explore, they lacked that insane amount of curiosity we have. Which helped lead us to the Industrial revolution, and later space exploration, and a large societal and technological gap between us and Japan. They are less inclined to rock the boat of society and their own beliefs, which can be both a strength and a weakness. If you examine 14th or 15th century Japanese history, literature, poetry, music, warrior culture it's strikingly similar to the same culture in Europe. I mean how they organized their societies and even some of the philosophy was eerily similar, Daimyos and Lords, Chivalry and Bushido, Haiku and poetry, Jesters and Taikomochi who weren't just clowns or fools but who good rulers employed and took seriously to mock themselves and the society they were building.
Anyway sorry for going off topic. To go back on topic, I grew up with Super Mario, and then Jrpgs so I'm a bit biased towards them. The only Western games that grabbed my attention back then on PC were city builders/sims(RT, Zeus/Poseidon, Rise of Nations etc). Of course I played the big name stuff like Starcraft Brood War, Diablo 2 LOD, and WC3, I honestly didn't like RTS that much it's just the usemap settings games were so good. I don't think Japs had many good games in the ARPG and RTS and SIM genres, at least not that I'm aware of or can think of off the top of my head. The 90s and early 2000s was a great time for gaming though, there was a classic game coming out about every month or so, no microtransactions, no day one patches, no dlc, rarely any bugs, in fact searching out finding cool bugs/exploits was a thing people did on the early internet.
f2fc6f No.15686307
How could I forget these two. Western side scrollers.
f2fc6f No.15686358
>>15686294
Never apologize for going off topic..
Anyways we have to investigate japan as an island nation off the coast of mainland asia. China was established in the 200BCs, after a brutal warring period that lasted 700 years.
China was a colossus, an angry colossus with incredible military advancements and power. Japanese people are likely the descendants of people who fled from the Qin dynasties wrath, the Qin slashed and burned the shamanistic Chu (their main opponent), drove their survivors far and wide. It was at this time japanese people as we know them arrived on those islands (the yayoi arrived circa 300 BC).
It's not unreasonable to think that after the trauma caused by the Qin the people who fled to the japanese islands were not interested in exploring. Also the japanese kind of lost badly in the few instances they attempted to rummage around the mainland.
2b3a96 No.15686362
The industry was literally started with Japanese games like Space Invaders, Pacman, Donkey Kong, Galaxian, etc. They play with so much advantage it's almost unfair to begin the discussion.
f2fc6f No.15686371
>>15686362
No the industry was revived by the japanese, but not started by them.
98520a No.15686374
>>15657461
That's pretty much exactly how I feel anon, minus the Sony stuff. You missed some really great stuff on Ps1 and Ps2(to an extent). That being said a lot of it hasn't aged that well, but for the time it was very innovative.
edbce0 No.15686383
>>15657341
>RPGs, either Japanese or Western, are utter garbage.
Why are people disagreeing with this? By default, the game mechanics present in RPGs makes them terrible. Any developer utilising RPG mechanics or making a game in the genre is like an athlete amputating themselves before a race.
>>15657371
>So tell us, O Wise One, which games do you consider good?
Not that anon, but a computer game is good once it utilises the strength of a medium.
I'm not saying that you cannot enjoy RPGs, but much like (((cinematic "games"))), the genre takes the strength of another medium (being tabletop in this case) and forgoes the potential of an interactive piece of virtual gaming media by trying to mix two ideas at once. Even when RPGs were diehard tabletop lites in practice, and required the player to use a pen and paper, they were still "bad" computer games. All because they ignored the possibilities the medium of computer games offer to cater to an already existing standard in tabletop.
That's why RPGs automatically are poor video games.
>>15657341
>Generally a good game is one that, regardless of how you're playing, how much time you spend on it, what your strategies are and how good you are at the game, you'll have fun just playing it.
I agree with you on the RPG thing, but not this definition. Games don't have to be fun at all, using criteria like this limits creativity.
A game in itself (so the basic concept) is an activity that is fun or provides amusement or entertainment'. So a "game" can be all of these or one of these definitions.
The reason why there are games that are bad video games (or computer games) is because they do not take full advantage of the interactivity element, which is what makes a video game a specific kind of game. Therefore, when you play an RPG or a game with lite RPG mechanics, or even a "cinematic" title, you are actually playing a hybrid of a "video game" and a completely different medium.
This includes VNs.
My point is that we have rarely played a "video game" that is wholly and purely a video game (outside of something like Tetris or Pacman). If the game is story driven, it's also always been a hybrid.
A 100% pure video game with a narrative would:
>Have absolutely no cutscenes of any kind once the game begins
>Never takes away control from the player from the presented rules
>Allows the player to control the majority of the player character's actions (including things like speech)
>Remove any narrative restrictions from gameplay that replace the player story with a developer story (like killing the player character if they go in the "wrong" direction or jump ahead too early)
Video gaming suffered greatly from being co-opted by (((greedy businessmen))) and flooded with normalfags whilst it was still growing as a medium. At least with the film and music industry, the kikes had to try and encourage people to purchase their goods with their hard earned money.
3f43a9 No.15686398
>>15686383
Cutscenes are a good thing especially if they can be skipped.
f2fc6f No.15686419
Oh shit we all forgot about adventure games.
All those lucas arts games.
0d8166 No.15686421
>>15686362
The industry was started by Ralph Baer, a Jewish-American inventor Don't tell /pol/ you might trigger them
98520a No.15686458
>>15686358
Thanks anon, yeah I agree and I actually think we used to see this play out in video game development too, until the West got cucked that is and just makes sequels and remasters of everything (I love remasters if they're good but it is indicative of how far we've fallen and how it's just a safe choice.) Like a lot of other anons have pointed out Western games were either really good or pretty shit, whereas a lot of Japanese games were just good. I think it's because Jap games were more iterative(Final Fantasy for example), gradually building systems on each game, expanding off other games like DQ. Whereas Western games were definitely more exploratory creating more genres of games, and doing weird/risky stuff(I mean we did have SIMS , and the Sports games in the west which were pretty iterative but it felt like it was definitely less so outside of those genres). I think those were general trends in the 90s, I don't think that's the case nowadays or was ever 100% the case even in the 90's.
>>15686383
I'm sorry but your first statement just reeks of being a contrarian and hating everything for the sake of hating everything. I get your point that a lot of times RPGS sacrifice gameplay for story, which I'm actually okay with to an extent. (FF8 for example took it to far, where the gameplay was so bad and counter-intuitive that it hurt the game overall) But there are tons of examples where they don't or barely do(IE the story is fantastic and the gameplay is still great, good, or at least passable/somewhat engaging (Tactics). I'm not just talking old shit either, I played Radiant Historia a little while back and the story was pretty damn engaging and if you put the difficulty up to hard so was the gameplay. It's basic nostalgia turn based combat but the new mechanics they added on of positioning your enemies for combos were actually pretty innovative and made combat much more engaging and fun.
0d8166 No.15686481
>>15686358
>China was established in the 200BC
You mean the original China was, the idea of Chinese continuity is propaganda, the land we now call modern China has been through multiple civil wars, conquests, and changes of hand since then. Modern China superficially resembles the China of old at best
a19256 No.15686486
I just found out that the leader designer/writer of System Shock II is Jewish. Fuck my life.
f2fc6f No.15686497
>>15686481
Modern china of course has fuck all to do with that ancient china, but until the communists came china was governed by the same principles and the same methods. That's a continuity.
0acea0 No.15686518
>>15686486
>Just learning about Ken Levine
He also worked on Thief: Dark Project. But he wasn't in a top position for that.
edbce0 No.15686520
>>15686458
>I'm sorry but your first statement just reeks of being a contrarian and hating everything for the sake of hating everything.
I meant to say the gameplay mechanics present make them terrible video games. Not imply the games themselves are terrible for being RPGs, just that they are not organic video games. They are hybrids.
>I get your point that a lot of times RPGS sacrifice gameplay for story, which I'm actually okay with to an extent.
Whether you were ok with it wasn't what my point was about. Sacrificing gameplay is immediately discrediting the idea of making a video game, thus making the overall work fight against itself.
For example, the simplest explanation for why you add a cutscene is because you either don't trust the player to stick to your important story or you don't trust your mechanics to tell the story well. It's a cop out technique that for some reason has become a norm, and all it does is take the player out of the game.
>But there are tons of examples where they don't or barely do(IE the story is fantastic and the gameplay is still great, good, or at least passable/somewhat engaging (Tactics). I'm not just talking old shit either, I played Radiant Historia a little while back and the story was pretty damn engaging and if you put the difficulty up to hard so was the gameplay.
I never once implied that these games weren't good for their gaming quality. My point was that we have never seen a 100% pure video game that was narrative driven. It's always a hybrid, no matter how much of the gameplay mechanics you enjoyed.
>I played Radiant Historia a little while back and the story was pretty damn engaging and if you put the difficulty up to hard so was the gameplay. It's basic nostalgia turn based combat but the new mechanics they added on of positioning your enemies for combos were actually pretty innovative and made combat much more engaging and fun.
I don't get the relevance of this part to my point. I also enjoy games that have story cutscenes. The gist of my post is that we don't have any pure video games that attempt to maximise the potential of the art of video game making whatsoever. That is a crying shame.
98520a No.15686538
>>15686481
I don't know enough about Chinese history to have a strong opinion on this. I have tried to study it, but I just found it so full of short periods of treachery and then long stretches of nothing happening and somehow even the treachery was boring and just a bunch eunuchs being hysterical. But your post reminded me of this (pic). Also maybe it's just from watching anime or something but i was able to digest Japanese names, whereas for Chinese names I was occasionally mixing them up.
a19256 No.15686540
>>15686518
Yeah, makes sense why Bioshock turned out the way it did.
4436f8 No.15686554
>>15654251
The Elder Scrolls series still can't be topped by any RPG / action adventure game whatsoever. It's baffling how I can't stop playing Oblivion, it's such an immersing game with an offbeat but interesting world, cute characters, and lots of unexpected plot twists in it's quests. I never thought a game could combine the charm of a JRPG and the freedom of a CRPG.
83b19d No.15686581
>>15686540
Especially Bioshock Infinite. You go around shooting all the rayciss police and frying them with plasmids. The main enemy is a version of you whose main difference is he was baptized. I can see Jewish mothers buying Bioshock Infinite for their kids saying "oy vey, now don't you convert to Christianity, or you'll become a supervillain with a flying city".
However there were a couple of (possibly unintentional) redpills in the game. We're supposed to sympathize with the niggers and the irish, but it turns out they're all convicted criminals who were brought to the city for cheap labour by the wealthy industrialist Mr. ((((Fink)))). And what do they do? They turn to communism and wreck the place. There's a lesson here to be learned.
b62b5e No.15686582
>>15686486
It's time to re-evaluate your taste in video games.
a19256 No.15686599
>>15686582
Not really no, its one game and I recently played through System Shock 1 and 2. I found myself enjoy 1 much more then 2 and I am okay with that.
98520a No.15686617
>>15686520
Ah sorry, I only read the top bit of your post at first, apologies. I also know the idea of sacrificing gameplay for story is not a popular one, but I'm okay with it to an extent mainly in RPGS because while I obviously don't want the gameplay to be busywork or worse, I care more about getting a thought provoking experience. It may sound kinda corny but it's why I don't think ff7 is that over-rated, there were a lot of story related concepts in that game that brought me to where I am today and helped shape my view of the world. I think there's some real redpills in that game but I could write way too much on that. I mean in the context of an RPG, if I'm playing an FPS or something, I just want to shoot shit and I want the gameplay to be top notch.
That's actually a really good point though I can't think of any RPG where you aren't spoon-fed pieces of the narrative through cutscenes. I think it's because you have to occasionally take away control from the character in order to tell a story that is written by another person because if the player is allowed to make infinite choices there are just too many branching paths that would need to be covered, and if you let them retain control but limit their options you wind up with a Mass Effect or Skyrim type thing where it's just the illusion of control. I never beat Skyrim but I did play it for about 50 hours and the only cutscene I remember was the initial one. It felt great at first having so much freedom, but then I quickly realized it was a hollow world where your actions mostly didn't matter.
3f43a9 No.15686618
>>15686518
He just wrote flavor text pretty much. Thank god.
4436f8 No.15686722
>>15686617
Rather than open choices, Elder Scrolls games emphasize on free will. You should treat them as nonlinear games with linear plot, not as linear games with branching plot. It sounds weird but I feel that emphasis on choices in RPGs leads to branching linearity rather than true freedom.
37fe3e No.15687253
>>15672721
Maybe not now, but it was Westerners who were making games like Quake, System Shock, and Deus Ex, While Japs were still cranking out the same basic kinds of games they had been making since the 8-bit era. JRPGs didn't really change for a long time, for example.
4436f8 No.15687674
>>15687253
>Maybe not now
Even now, though. Aside from MGSV (very barely) and Gravity Rush (very barely, too) I don't see any new japanese dev trying to push the technology. As much as a scam they probably are, Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous, and Numale Sky types of games are the most cutting edge nowadays. Doom 2016 ran at perfect 60 fps on consoles despite it's highly detailed graphics. RDR2 is graphics whoring of the highest degree.
3b61f1 No.15688148
>>15685995
>Baldur’s Gate
>Diablo
>Fallout
>Planescape Torment
A whole bunch of fucking trash, next time try some good Western RPGs, they actually do exist you know.
3b61f1 No.15688174
>>15686023
>SOTN
Symphony of the Night is a half-assed mess of bad pacing, piss-easiness, and meandering design. At the very least Descent and Starcraft are better than it.
3f8108 No.15688182
>>15686421
A fucking kike? Oy vey.
3b61f1 No.15688183
>>15686060
>System Shock is better then Super Metroid
Now that's a good one!
3b61f1 No.15688187
>>15686104
La-Mulana
Cave Story
Uh…
edc4ac No.15688195
>>15654251
>Western classics - Arcanum
>>15654318
>as much depth as, Arcanum
Treating Arcanum as anything other than a curiosity for RPG connoisseurs. It did some things like no other RPG before it but 80% of the game was an unpolished, unbalanced mess.
5c195d No.15688196
>>15656594
>gameplay wise
They're 100% identical except the 3DS version looks like shit and has a shit mobile trash style mini game instead of the target shooting mini game that PS4 version has.
5c195d No.15688203
>>15672119
It actually doesn't. It only works that way in the very beginning of the game, and then forces you to choose one style or the other early on.
a62728 No.15688308
>>15687253
>but it was Westerners who were making FPS series, FPS series and FPS series in a market that was over-saturated with FPS games in general.
Which of those introduced anything new?
Quake is just a standard FPS, System shock is a sci-fi Ultima Underworld and Deus Ex is pretty much System Shock with more open level design.
638791 No.15688330
i always found it funny how strategy rpgs seem more common from japan given the wests love of board games.
theres plenty of turn based strategy games and rpgs but for whatever reason turn based strategy games with rpg elements are just rare as hell.
638791 No.15688332
>>15688330
>turn based strategy games with rpg elements are just rare as hell.
i should say and rpgs with strategy elements
02e3eb No.15688477
>>15688330
I figured that if you want to make a strategy game, in the west you just make a strategy game, and in the east you make a strategy RPG.
4436f8 No.15688715
>>15688330
I think most isometric RPG's in the west have tun based strategy combat, or real time combat where you can sort out your plans while pausing the game.
4d837d No.15688763
>>15686383
>>15686520
shmups and shooting games? Those genres are the most pure gameplay of all video games.
918790 No.15688833
>>15686520
You're loking for shooting games, the most consistently good genre.
68f8fa No.15688932
>>15686421
Sure, Baer invented the game console, but computer games had existed long before that.
aaebf0 No.15690089
>>15656436
The first was absolutely terrible and tedious. The second was leagues better in every aspect and worth playing
aaebf0 No.15690102
>>15656762
> Anglo means American
Time to go back to studying English and lurking English forums, Pablo
94b49c No.15690139
are there ANY nip RTS games out there?
9c7330 No.15690171
>>15690139
Hundred Swords for Dreamcast/PC is one that was actually translated. There's also Grim Grimoire for a 2D RTS.
edbce0 No.15690180
>>15688763
>Those genres are the most pure gameplay of all video games.
There should be more examples in other genres too.
>>15688833
Dubs of truth. Knew I was forgetting something.
918790 No.15690205
>>15690139
Yeah, they invented the genre.
3d4097 No.15690356
>>15690139
Ogre Battle 64, Herzog Zwei and Ogre Battle:March of the Black Queen come to mind
14ae7a No.15690431
>>15690205
Herzog Zwei is credited for inventing it by a bunch of hipster faggots and indeed people involved with Dune II outright cites Herzog Zwei as inspiration but Europe and Japan had been developing strategy games toward an RTS formula naturally since the early 80's. They even released similar games a year apart from each other. If Japan didn't put a game out then Europe certainly would have, and Herzog Zwei is not why Dune II has it's resource management.
Dune II's defining features is entirely thanks to the book Dune.
598222 No.15695355
>>15690431
>Herzog Zwei is not why Dune II has it's resource management.
Yeah, game developers add in features to their own games that make it more challenging, all the while clearly being influenced by another game. Doom isn't in 2.5D like Duke Nukem and there sure as shit would have been a game that would have revolutionized the market and had 2.5D graphics if Duke didn't, but it was clearly inspired by Doom in the first place and even if Doom hadn't been made, there would be Wolfenstein to go off of.
14ae7a No.15695422
>>15695355
>Doom isn't in 2.5D like Duke Nukem
>2.5D
You don't know fuck all what 2.5D even means and you missed my point. Dune II has the resource management system it does because of Dune, you can't have a Dune strategy game without the spice. if it wasn't a Dune adaptation then it'd resemble the other RTS-like games before Zwei ever showed up.
2ecef4 No.15704344
>>15654274
Geography is not a genre.