/v/ - Video Games

The ball items in brawl that released confetti like it was a party or something with multiple items, that and people think of Mario Party or Mario Kart when they see Mario in games not completely revolving around Mario.

Why do you care though?

Because it's not actually a good fighting game, it's just something you play when your friends are over because it's easy enough for anyone to pick up and play like a party.

>>15140908

Just would like to know why Smash is the only fighting series where people tell players of the older titles to fuck off, yet you don't see the same thing for people who keep dragging out Street Fighter 2/3, Soul Calibur 1/2, KoF98/2002, and so on.

>>15140927

Melee did it right, but it built off of brawl for the future titles instead.

>>15140927

Well that's easy, one because it's Nintendo, two because Melee players have been character assassinated in every single way possible most of what people claim about Melee players is 100% true but I digress

>>15140898

A perfect example of how a "competetive" community can spring up around something, twist the intentions and completely ruin it. The same thing happened to Dark Souls and is why Dark Souls 3 is filled with nofun in terms of build variety.

>>15140898

It always was, and it always will be a party game. The more Jewtendo distance itself from the cancer of the (((FGC))) and (((toruneyfags))), the better.

>meleefags still seething

>>15140898

Tourneyfags on both ends. Non-smash tourneyfags don't want their genre associated with Nintendo characters since their egos can't handle their esport being associated with things kids like and Smash tourneyfags mostly the melee crowd need validation that their game about fighting is a fighting game because they've dumped the entirety of their childhood into a single game and senpai needs to notice them for whatever reason. vid related, skip to 39:14 to listen to this tourneyfag stroke his inflated ego.

It's just salty Street Fighter faggots. They do it to air dashing games too by calling them "anime fighters".

iirc Sakurai actually called it one when people complained about Brawl.

>>15141045

That's not melee though

>>15141018

It can't be both because "party game" isn't a genre. It's just like when those pretentious Metroid Prime PR guys try to claim their shooter isn't an FPS by calling it a "first-person adventure".

>>15140934

>most of what people claim about Melee players is 100% true but I digress

That's something I've been wondering, why don't the hosts of these events tell the contestants to clean themselves up and/or act with courtesy? And, if they refuse to do that, then tell them they cannot participate.

>>15141148

money and views

>>15141148

Odds are that those sort of people make up a critical mass of the melee scene, so you end up with no event from those policies instead of players cleaning up their act.

>>15140934

That's a character suicide, not an assassination.

>>15141147

>when you ban major parts of the game it can become another genre

Battletoads is a fighting game because you can ignore the enemies and just fight the other player.

>>15141163

But you can't actually accomplish anything by doing that, whereas Smash allows options for different groups

>>15141155

>so you end up with no event from those policies instead of players cleaning up their act.

If that's their attitude, then there probably shouldn't be an event. It's not demanding that they become a multi-millionaire Chad with a harem of girls waiting at home. It's just asking them to be the littlest bit respectful towards…anyone.

>>15141170

You can beat your opponent, which is the point of a fighting game. It is 100% a fighting game, so long as you ignore a bunch of key parts of the game. Just like Smash Bros.

>>15141172

That's what the SJWs ask of us.

>>15141183

The game doesn't register it as anything, though

Sakurai called it a party game in his Famitsu column. I assume that's where it started from.

>>15141190

It registers it as a death. Then it resets both of you so you can start again. Just like a fighting game.

>>15141210

What do you think fighting games do when one player dies? It resets both players so they can start again, just like Battletoads.

>>15141221

But by that logic, any game with friendly fire constitutes a fighting game

>>15141229

Which is my point. Ignoring major parts of the game so that you can play it like a different type of game does not make it that type of game. Meleefags and Smash Brosfags in general have to NO ITEMS FINAL DESTINATION FOX ONLY just so they can pretend it's a fighting game, because it's not.

>>15141183

How is Smash Bros. not a fighting game if you use items?

>>15141240

But the game isn't built around items or wacky stage hazards, it's built around the characters, as they're the core component and essential to making Smash work. When you take away the party elements, then it's a fighting game

>>15141255

How is it not a fighting game when the "party elements" are present?

>>15141263

You answered your own question

>>15140920

>not actually a good fighting game

Why's that?

@above

Because fighting games by definition have no RNG. Its like how Roguelikes cant be 3d

>>15141272

It's not a fighting game because you don't fight the way I want to.

>>15141278

>by definition

Oh boy, here we go

>>15141267

so does Test your luck turn mortal combat from a fighting game to a party game

>>15141278

stun in third strike is RNG

Shingo's super in 98 is RNG

>>15141278

Street Fighter 2 confirmed party game.

http://sonichurricane.com/articles/sf2randomness.html

From bitter Capcucks after Smash took away the spotlight from Street Fighter as most played fighting game and got two fighting games at EVO.

>>15141332

>2 people

>A party

Your birthday must of been pretty sad

Nintendo doesn't make games to be taken seriously

>>15141342

>must of been

"must have been"

>>15141332

Didn't the game also have a stun feature that was completely random?

>>15141359

I hate how numales are starting to wear circle glasses. I bought a pair of those a few years ago because I wanted to stay far away from hipster shit, but now they're starting to associate that design with them as well.

Fuck it all.

>>15141221

>Every fighting game is actually Battletoads

Wowie

>>15142767

I'm okay with this.

>>15141255

>When you take away the party elements, then it's a fighting game

Exactly. When you change the game, it's something else. When you ignore the enemies in Battletoads, it's a fighting game.

>>15143098

>Ignore the enemies in an FPS

>It becomes Gone Home

>Ignore the oponent in Street Fighter

>It becomes a platformer

>Ignore stats on RPG

>It becomes ARPG

>Ignore Base Building in RTS

>It becomes RTT

>Ignore Micro in RTS

>It becomes Grand Strategy

You know, that argument is actually interesting to apply to a lot of other things.

I'm gonna remember that to trigger some mellee fags.

"Melee isn't a fighting game" is such an old low quality bait. The only reason people keep posting it is because retards that probably haven't played competitive melee in their lives keep responding to it.

>>15143137

It's because "Competitive Melee" has to remove so many key features of the game that they're essentially playing a mod. It's not the same game anymore when you have to make so many extra rules to bar people from playing it the way it's intended. And yes I know it's intended because NO ITEMS FINAL DESTINATION FOX ONLY isn't default.

>>15143174

>use in-game settings to change the way the game is played

>playing a mod

>>15143242

>Remove items (on by default)

>Remove random stage selection, only play one our of 25+ levels ever

>Only play as non-banned, upper-teir characters (Maybe 4 or 5 out of at least 20)

but no it's totally how it is intended to be played in truth

>>15143242

>"WE CAN ONLY PLAY ON THESE STAGES WITH THESE SETTINGS"

Every game is a racing game if you're a speedrunner.

>>15143369

Smash is a platformer

>>15143347

Because tourneyfags never bitched that Final Destination was the only stage they could play on so much that they added a literal FINAL DESTINATION ONLY mode to the fourth game.

>>15143376

FD only is a meme, most competitive Smash games use stages with Battlefield layouts or minimal hazards like Smashville. Omega mode was most likely added as a way for people to enjoy stages without having to deal with hazards since Smash 4 ramped up them up way more than previous titles did, especially with stage bosses

>thinking tourneyfags were the reason Smash 4 included omega mode

that would imply Ninty takes minority outcry into consideration

It's a retarded argument, since all fighting games are party games by definition.

Party game = designed for local multiplayer, primarily

When you get down to it, the FGC are just a band of posturing niggers who got mad that a silly kid's game without an obtuse control scheme was being enjoyed in their vicinity, and intruding on their perceived aura of seriousness and hardcore competition (no one actually thinks they're as cool as they do). That's the basis of this whole debate.

>Where did the myth com from stating that this was a party game?

the devs.

>>15143427

Could be worse

It could be competitive TF2

>>15140898

>Fox

Fucking cancer.

>the FGC actually think learning unnecessarily unintuitive control schemes makes them cool

No other genre has this problem. When I pick up a modern shooter, it's not going to control like Jet Force Gemini. The FGC are like those parents who grew up poor, and don't let their kids have new clothes and decent food and shit, because they never got it, and "they have to learn".

>>15140898

Because fightanfags can't accept a game that isn't a SF2 clone into their favorite genre.

The game is closer to most fighting games than it is to any party game.

It's like saying Mario Kart isn't a racing game because it has wacky items and mechanics in it.

>>15143466

I'm horrible at fighting games, but learning the controls isn't the reason. If anything, it's most of the fun. It's playing with tryhard tourneyfags that kills the fun.

>>15143491

I'd say there's a distinction to be made between kart racers and other racers. This is more like saying Twisted Metal is a racing game because you control cars.

>>15143574

I can do the controls, and I have gotten borderline competent at fighting games in the past. I just don't want to. It's annoying to pick up a game after a couple of months and have to struggle to remember how the characters all work again. It's a layer of tedium I can't be bothered with.

>>15143574

>I'd say there's a distinction to be made between kart racers and other racers.

That's not incorrect to say. I'd say it's just a racing game with some party elements added to it, tough, it doesn't stop being a racing game because of that, it just stops being a conventional one.

Twisted Metal is a whole different case because there you're not even racing, it just uses the controls and "character interaction" from racing games. Kind of like Portal uses FPS's but it's not an FPS at all. In Mario Kart you're still racing and in Smash you're still fighting.

You can slap your balls in different, sophisticated fashions and call it a martial art. But I wouldn't recommend advertising it to the public. People might think you are autistic.

>>15143656

>fighting games are a martial art

Here we observe the inflated ego of the FGC. You're just playing video games like everyone else, nigga.

>>15143656

Can I slap your balls, with my tongue?

>>15143652

Lots of games have you race. Doesn't make them racing games. Lots of games have you fight. Doesn't make them fighting games. Kart Racers are a different thing than Racing Sims, and the same way, Smash Bros is a Platform Fighter, which is a different thing than Fighting Games.

>>15143693

you're just mad you couldn't catch the metroid :^)

>>15143693

Then Mortal Kombat X is a dungeom crawler.

>>15143707

Am I the only person who loved Tobal No. 1? The Quest mode was a great mix of dungeon crawler with fighting game. Also, I really liked the RTS mode in Soul Calibur III.

The difference here is that those are extra modes. Meleefags have to literally go to the options menu and disable key parts of the game until it is entirely different and no fun just so they can pretend it's a fighting game.

>>15143687

>Kart Racers are a different thing than Racing Sims

And they all fall under the umbrella term of racing games

>>15143693

>implying no one has ever whipped out Street Fighter at a party

>>15143687

Having racing in a game or fighting as some minor parts of a game is different than having the fighting or racing as the main focus of the game.

You can have sub-genres or labels like "Kart Racers", "Racing Sims" and "Platform Fighters" all you want. They're still gonna be racing and fighting games. Same thing with JRPGs and ARPG differing from standard RPGs, but still being RPGs.

>>15143723

Optional settings that you can turn off aren't key parts of the game, though.

>>15143723

It's a fighting game with items and stage hazards, that you have the option to turn off if you're that way inclined.

>>15143728

You can always go to higher and higher levels and use wider and wider umbrellas. They're still different genres. You'd have a much harder time arguing things like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are different genres, even if the fans can easily explain how they're very different games.

>>15143736

>Having racing in a game or fighting as some minor parts of a game is different than having the fighting or racing as the main focus of the game.

My point exactly. And the main focus of Super Smash Bros is very different from the way tourneyfags play it.

>Optional settings that you can turn off aren't key parts of the game, though.

When they're on by default and they're the standard way to play the game, yes, they are. Lots of games have modes where you can give yourself infinite health or whatever. Doesn't mean that removing health limits isn't changing a key part of the game.

>>15143771

They're different sub-genres. They're still both racing games.

>>15143774

And racing games and car combat games are both sub-genres of driving games. It just depends how far you want to abstract things for your argument.

>>15143780

That's correct too. So, at what point is Mario Kart not a racing game?

its a party game because it has low skill cap and players can die in "funny ways" which isnt really that possible using examples like sf. i always was a party game, only people too shitty to pick up real fighting games tried to act cool and made meele their savior and defend it in autistic fashion

>>15143795

The problem is you're trying to define party game as a genre, when all a party game is is a game that people will commonly play at a party.

Halo, Smash Bros, Guitar Hero, Monopoly, Wii Sports. All party games. Obviously not the same genre.

>>15143804

The one where Poyo screams in the face of a grill is funny too

>>15143771

>And the main focus of Super Smash Bros is very different from the way tourneyfags play it.

>implying the focus isn't to outfight your opponents with or without items

full retard

>When they're on by default and they're the standard way to play the game, yes, they are.

I guess Street Fighter Stops being a fighter if you turn off the timer, then.

>>15143780

>It just depends how far you want to abstract things for your argument.

>facts are now "abstracting things" if they're against your logic

If your logic goes against facts, it means your logic is wrong, not that someone bended reality to make those facts.

>>15143804

>makes retarded post

>gets retarded posts in response

>"lol u all retarded"

like pottery

>>15143804

I don't think you are walking back having to roll out "testicular ninjutsu is the logical conclusion of your argument" as a serious statement.

>>15143808

I'm not trying to define anything, i just stated what makes a game "party game". There is no problem whatsoever

>>15143816

Okay, but Street Fighter is a party game too, so the term means nothing.

>>15143819

by your train of thought any couch multiplayer can be a party game

i feel like party game is something that is just more "laid back" experience you can play while being tipsy with your friends, not tryhard, well defined shit like sf.

sf is just 1v1 fight of skill, smash can have items, more than 2 players on board, team wars or ffa.

It's a less serious and more fun experience (for people who dont play the game often)

>>15143837

>any couch multiplayer can be a party game

That's what I'm saying, yes. It's not a genre.

And people do play casual Street Fighter with their friends, you don't need to be competitive level to mash some buttons and have fun.

>>15143843

Someone dislikes Smash. Nigger calls them a melee fag. The power of educated blacks.

>>15143844

I listed reasons why smash is more of party game than sf

>>15143786

Oh it is. And Gran Turismo is the same genre as Twisted Metal.

>>15143813

>>implying the focus isn't to outfight your opponents with or without items

No, it's with items and on a variety of fun stages. That's why they're all on by default and you have to go out of your way to purposely remove all the fun from the game if you want to be a tourneyfag.

>I guess Street Fighter Stops being a fighter if you turn off the timer, then.

Notice you can only list one relatively minor thing, compared to barring yourself from nearly every stage, when the stages are also a major part of the game, and barring yourself from items, which strongly change how you play the game.

Tourneyfags play entirely differently than everyone else in order to pretend Smash Bros is a fighting game. If you put a regular player into a Street Fighter tournament, he'll lose, but he'll be playing the same basic stuff he always plays. If you put a regular player into a Smash Bros tournament, he'll wonder where all the items and stages went, because they're such an obvious and integral part of the game. It completely changes how you play.

I also didn't say abstraction was bending reality or anything. If you want to define the games more and more broadly in order to fit them under the same umbrella terms, then fine, you can. That's exactly my point. Mario Kart is a racing game but obviously it's not the same type of game people talk about when the talk about Gran Turismo. Call Smash Bros a fighting game if you want, but it will never be the same type of game people talk about when they talk about Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat or Guilty Gear or King of Fighters or Tekken or Soul Calibur or countless other examples. And even there you have distinctions, like 2D fighters vs 3D fighters, but Smash Bros falls far outside even the umbrella that encompasses both of those types.

It's like SJWs trying to say racism is "prejudice + power." It's not the word that's at issue, it's the meaning behind it. Call your game a fighting game if you want, but it won't make it the same type of game that people currently refer to when they use the term fighting game. Your autism is only going to force people to use a new term to refer to real fighting games, and then they'll make tournaments for whatever that term is, and Smash Bros won't be there either, because it's not the same type of game.

>>15143855

But that's subjective, and it's still not a genre.

>>15143856

>Gran Turismo is the same genre as Twisted Metal.

They could fall under a larger banner of driving game, but Twisted Metal is not a racing game.

>>15143866

>They could fall under a larger banner of driving game, but Twisted Metal is not a racing game.

>I didn't read the rest of the post

You can take the word fighting game. All you're doing is changing it, because when people say it they aren't thinking of things like Smash Bros. Calling Smash Bros a fighting game doesn't make it one, it just changes the definition of fighting game, so you're demanding people make up new terms for old genres just to soothe Meleefags' autism. When people say fighting game, they mean Street Fighter type. Back in the '80s people called Beat em' Ups fighting games, because that's what they're about, fighting. So I suppose Double Dragon is a fighting game now. No. Because "Fighting Game" isn't a pure literal term that encompasses any game that has fighting in it. It has a specific meaning that already covers a large genre of games, and Smash Bros is outside it.

>>15143902

>because when people say it they aren't thinking of things like Smash Bros.

Maybe you're not, but I sure am.

>>15143902

Well, if Smash Bros isn't a fighting game, it's going to need a genre, since party game is not one, and you'll have to define exactly what the boundaries of the fighting game genre is, and if more traditional fighting games with stage hazards, simplified control schemes, and other features people associate with Smash Bros also get the kick.

>>15143918

I've heard the term Platform Fighter before, including in this thread. Take any new term you want, but if you tell someone a game is a fighting game, they're gonna expect something from Street Fighter to Soul Calibur, and not something like Smash Bros.

>>15143924

At what point did being "tourney viable" become a prerequisite? Aren't there a lot of poorly balanced fighting games out there that are not tourney viable?

>>15143931

Platform fighter even sounds like a sub-genre of fighting games.

>>15143946

Call it what you want. But when people say "fighting game" they're referring to an established genre with lots of games, and Smash Bros is very unlike all of them. Might as well call Grand Theft Auto a platformer because you can jump in it.

>>15143963

And that's a problem with fighting game fans and their autism. People will accept that Quake and Call of Duty are different sub-genres, but there's no argument about whether they both count as FPS.

>>15143970

Is tourney play a prerequisite of the fighting game genre?, and if so are poorly balanced fighting games not fighting games?

>Show me the other games played at tourneys where they have to enforce strict rules on how the game must be played

You could start by looking at every single game played in any sort of large scale tournament setting.

>>15143973

Quake and Call of Duty are much more alike than Smash Bros and Street Fighter.

>>15143985

Okay, what about Stranger's Wrath, Super Hot, Red Steel 2?

>>15143997

Haven't played them. Don't have an opinion.

If items disqualify your game from the fighting game genre, is Final Fight Revenge a fighting game?

If stage hazards disqualify your game from the fighting game genre, is Injustice a fighting game?

If simple controls disqualify your game from the fighting game genre, is Rising Thunder a fighting game?

You have to figure this shit out.

>>15144028

Anyone can instantly look at all those games you listed and see they're the same type of game, then look at Smash Bros and see it's a different type of game. If you just went and showed clips to random people on the street, they wouldn't know the other games you listed, but they'd call them all fighting games, and still say Smash Bros is something different.

The combination of huge stages with four to eight player emphasis with complex stage layouts and emphasis on many different types of items plus the very different control scheme all add up to make it a very different type of game.

>>15144043

What if a more traditional fighting game had large stages?

>>15144053

If you ask me, I'd say the stages are the biggest factor. If you took Street Fighter and put it in Smash Bros stages, it would play very, very differently. Especially if you put four to eight player emphasis. People talk about the items but I'd say it's only the third most important factor.

>>15144067

You could in theory make a Street Fighter game that allowed four players, though it would be a mess. Would it still be a fighting game at that point?

>>15141189

>EVO had mario kart

Did it ever have F-Zero?

>>15144071

If it was four players in the same type of stages, it would be interesting to see. Probably wouldn't play anything close to how it plays now since automatically facing your opponent would go out the window. Of course Smash Bros has this, platforming stages, and heavy emphasis on items. Personally I think the controls aren't an issue, and I don't think anyone else really thinks that either. It's just the way Meleefags try to justify to themselves why people say they're not playing a real fighting game.

>>15144053

Then it would probably have severe balance issues as a result. The restrictive space in a fighting game means that the characters are forced into close quarters at pretty much all times. Even zoning characters are practically within arm's reach at all times.

>>15144083

But you could in theory make that game, right? I think there were some Dragonball fighters like that on the SNES. So, once you take that step, are you still a fighting game or not. That's the boundary that needs to be defined.

>>15144028

>>15144053

This is really pathetic.

You can't actually make the argument on why smash isn't a party game so now you are trying to muddy the waters on what criteria is used to constitute a real fighting game.

>>15144082

Literally a brawler game at that point.

>>15144092

It is a party game, but party game is not a genre.

And if 1v1, small flat stage is what matters, then Final Destination tourneyplay IS a fighting game?

>>15144088

It's not the large stages that makes Smash Bros different, it's the complex stages. That's why they always play on Final Destination (or maybe Battlefield, the second most simple stage). To remove the complexity, even though the stages are one of the best parts of the game.

>>15144092

>You can't actually make the argument on why smash isn't a party game so now you are trying to muddy the waters on what criteria is used to constitute a real fighting game.

This is literally all they have. If they call Smash Bros a fighting game, it doesn't make it any closer to Street Fighter and the like that people actually refer to when they say fighting game. So all they're doing is destroying the definition.

>Literally a brawler game at that point.

You make an interesting point that Smash Bros really functions more like a beat em up than a fighting game, except the goal isn't to get to the end of a stage. It feels like it has roots more in the vs mode of Double Dragon than it does in Street Fighter.

>>15144097

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=party+game+genre

You are fucking stupid.

>>15144109

>If they call Smash Bros a fighting game, it doesn't make it any closer to Street Fighter

We've been over these arguments, man. Mario, and Prince of Persia are both platformers. You can have different sub-genres, while existing under a larger genre umbrella.

>>15144105

No because it still has vastly different movement. But yes it brings it closer, which is exactly the point. 1V1 NO ITEMS FINAL DESTINATION FOX ONLY is very far from the way the game is normally played. But they have to stretch it as far as possible in order to even come close to saying it's a fighting game.

>>15144111

It means nothing. It's like calling a game fun. Not a genre.

>>15144118

Well that leads us down a whole other road. Super Monkey Ball is not a billiards game, but I would argue that Monkey Billiards mode is. So, can games contain other genres without being that genre primarily?

>>15144116

Sure, but Fighting Game refers to something quite specific. When Smash Bros fags want to call it a fighting game, the actual effect is simply saying that they want there to be a more specific term for Street Fighter clones. But that isn't what they really want. What they really want is for FGC to not make fun of them for their bing bing wahoo. Instead of just realizing FGC are fags anyway and not giving a shit what their game is called.

>>15144131

>Such games include the Mario Party series, Crash Bash, and Rayman Raving Rabbids. Versus multiplayer games are not generally considered to be party games.

Pfffffffftt.

>>15144118

>is very far from the way the game is normally played

I think you underestimate how much time has been put into melee by competitive players. At this point I'm sure their collective time spent surpasses casual play which would make it the "normal" way to play.

>>15144126

>A genre doesn't exist because it completely undermines my argument

sure kid.

>>15144148

Well, according to Wikipedia, it means Mario Party-likes. So not Smash Bros.

>>15144126

>So, can games contain other genres without being that genre primarily?

Yes, definitely. Still, even with Meleefags' most desperate attempt to jury-rig Smash Bros into being a fighting game, it doesn't quite make it. Also, what they have isn't a mode, it's tweaking a series of options in a specific way and telling each other to nerf themselves and only play the way they want to play. It's very different from something like Soul Calibur III having an RTS mode. Brawl had Subspace Emissary, which was a different type of genre than the main game. Too bad neither type of genre in Brawl was a fighting game.

>>15144143

>this is what tourneyfags actually believe

No, the millions of hours spent by little kids on some of the best selling games of all time is not outdone by a couple dozen autists. I bet you think "competitive Pokemon" players aren't a tiny minority, too.

>>15144128

Personally, I just have a special brand of autism that can't stand it when genre labels are poorly defined and make no sense.

I don't care what the FGC think. Most of them are black.

>>15144160

Then we have to figure out what Smash Bros is. Is it a platformer?

>>15144135

>>15144154

I deleted that post because on I didn't think a wikipedia link would actually stand up to scrutiny also because smash isn't actually mentioned.

My bad

>>15144171

It's quite a unique game, which I'd say is a compliment. I don't know if it fits into any established genre. I'd say it's closer to a beat-em-up with emphasis on platforming, which happens to have a goal other than making it to the end of a stage. Since very few games are that much like it, I wouldn't say it goes in a genre. Platform fighter being the most used term I've heard so far is the one I'd go with, though.

>>15144183

Alright, I give up. I don't know what the fuck Smash Bros is.

>>15144185

Moving both players to a different but relatively similar fighting stage before being able to play again is something many fighting games have done over the years. This is very different from having a series of platforms that each player can move freely between, regardless of the other player's movements.

It's not the large stages that makes Smash Bros different, it's the layouts, the number of players, the movements, and the items.

The smash games are platforming brawler beatumups you can have 8 players ffs

>legit fighting games though.

Only if you don't know what "Fighting game" means. If you consider games like soul caliber and street fighter to be fighting games then how do you consider something that's almost completely different mechanically to be in same genre?

Yu Yu Hakusho: Makyou Toitsusen was a 4-player fightan, five years before Smash Bros.

>>15144256

Because Mario and Prince of Persia are both platformers.

>>15144266

Those aren't fighting games.

I've never played smash before, but I'm dogshit at fighting games.

Does it have those circle inputs? Where you have to move the joystick while pressing a button? I fucking hate that shit.

>>15144269

Right. Only the fighting game genre has this debate around it, which is what's weird to me.

>>15144272

no. You have A and B, and sometimes you hold a direction while pressing one of those.

>>15144279

>Only the fighting game genre has this debate around it

Roguelikes have a similar debate, despite the fact that the genre is very well and very clearly defined.

>>15144284

Well, that's more a case of new people not knowing the distinction between "like" and "lite". Even seasoned fighting game fans can't seem to articulate exactly what a fighting game is and why Smash is not one.

>>15144279

Why are you so desperate to have smash be considered a legitimate fighting game?

It's a platforming brawler that gets erroneously labeled as a fighting game either as a result of colloquialism or by ignorant people not actually knowing what a fighting game actually is.

>>15140940

Ok, what?

No no no no no. What the fuck are you on about? From software is almost COMPLETELY removed from the pvp community for Souls Games. 2 is the only one that received nerfs regularly to attempt game balance. 3 nerfed most things for PVE EXPERIENCE and I'm not even fucking kidding, I wish I was.

>>15140898

If playing it competitively requires making illegal 90% of the game, then it's not a competitive game. By design it's a casual party game.

>>15144314

I don't care. I just find all of this genre arguing annoyingly arbitrary, and I want to see if I can get to the bottom of it.

I don't think there's an answer at this point. I think it's fucked.

>>15144325

Well I'm curious too, how two games like street fighter and smash could be considered to be the exact same genre when they play much differently mechanically.

I think much of it stems from smash players wanting the same respect as people like sonicfox and flipchamp, etc. They can only achieve that if smash is considered a 100% legit fighting game on par with what the "Greats" play.

>>15144359

Because Mario Kart and Gran Turismo are both racing games.

>>15144266

Prince of Persia and it's similar shit rotoscoped games should be in a genre of their own. They're obviously not the same type of game as Mario or Sonic.

>>15144283

I wouldn't say Sonic Battle is quite the same thing either. Though I would say it's closer to Smash Bros than it is to a fighting game. I tried those Digimon games for GBA and would say they're the same type of thing as Smash Bros, though. In fact, I'd say PlayStation All-Star Stars: Battle Royale takes more from those Digimon games than from Smash Bros, and that's obviously the same genre as Smash Bros.

>>15144311

Yes they can. Because it plays entirely different from every other game that anyone claims is a fighting game.

>>15144387

>Because it plays entirely different from every other game that anyone claims is a fighting game.

That's all people can say though. "It feels different". They can't seem to lay out what the actual parameters of the genre are. I want to know that.

>>15144283

Ever thought that The Outfoxies is pretty much an arena version of Elevator Action Returns? They feel so similar, you could assume they are related, but they're not.

>>15140908

Because before the faggots that turned it into Fox Only Final Destination No Items it was a 4 player N64 game, which was basically purpose built for inviting friends to stay over on Friday night and talk shit while eating pizza

Why do smash faggots need constant validation about their game if it really is a fighting game?

>>15144394

People already pointed out many things in this thread. You're just deliberately ignoring them. The complex stage designs with heavy emphasis on platforming, the emphasis on more than two simultaneous players, the emphasis on items, and the very different movement mechanics (to facilitate the platforming).

>>15144436

But you can't decide if a Street Fighter game that did those things would still count.

>>15144438

I can. If it did all of those things it certainly wouldn't count. You try to muddy the waters by saying one thing at a time, and by slightly changing what is said (we say "large complex stages," you say "large stages"). It has nothing to do with the characters. I'd say it also has next to nothing to do with the controls. If you put those things in a Street Fighter game it would no longer be a fighting game, it would be whatever Smash Bros is. Digimon Battle Spirit isn't a fighting game either.

>>15144466

But when did having a competitive scene become entangled with simply being a part of a genre?

>>15144359

>I think much of it stems from smash players wanting the same respect as people like sonicfox and flipchamp, etc.

Why the fuck would you want that. Arguing about Smash being a fighting game (it is, just not the SF-kind) should just be a semantics/definition thing.

>>15144500

Smash Bros is only a "fighting game" if you're a literal autist who doesn't understand that terms can have non-literal definitions. If you have difficulty thinking non-concretely, then you will have difficulty realizing that the term "Fighting Game" in this context has a specific meaning beyond the literal "game where you fight." Again, Digimon Battle Spirit is not a fighting game either.

>>15144488

I don't know. Perhaps Sakurai being upset over the leak of SSE's cutscenes and the criticism people level at Brawl had something to do with it. In the "Iwata Asks" article linked in the OP, you find him back in 2008 stating that he wanted to make an alternative to usual 1v1 fighting games that were clouding the market back in the latter half of the 90's, and that he only used Nintendo characters so that he could focus on making the game have good gameplay without feeling the need to establish anything some story behind the fights because of it being a console fighting game instead of an arcade title (Which didn't tend to have stories).

But then, two years later, you find him making a completely different statement:

>"I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

https://archive.fo/aX5R

>>15144539

>but Melee was just too difficult."

That is such fucking bullshit. Any child can pickup and play Melee, pretty much instantly.

>>15144550

>party-style platforming beat-em-up

This is hilarious to me. All of these gibberish terms people think up just to avoid calling it a fighting game.

So, are there other player versus player beat-em-ups?

Like, the "beating up other players" (as opposed to just AI enemies) part makes me think that Smash is a fighting game.

>>15144557

With your level of reading comprehension, I'm sure a lot of adult conversations sound like gibberish to you.

>>15144575

Whatever it is, it's definitely not a beat em up. Beat em up was always primarily player vs waves of AI.

>>15144575

>Hurr You fight other people therefore it's fighting game.

I wish I could just come into a thread, not read any of it and take a low iq shit and leave.

>>15144619

At the very least it is not a beat em up. You can't call it that. That's just ridiculous.

>>15144629

Kind of like calling smash a fighting game?

>>15144635

It's more a fighting game than it is a beat em up.

>>15144640

In that's not a fighting game at all? I'll concede that.

>>15144548

In fact, you have to be a hardcore turboautist to even tell the difference between the games. The only reason most people can tell the difference is because of the characters included and extra modes like Subspace Emissary.

>>15144557

Yes, it's a somewhat unique game with few others like it. But there are others like it. There should be a term for them. Platform fighter has been used but Smash Bros fags here are getting mad about it because it is an acknowledgement that their game isn't the same as Street Fighter. I don't know why they'd get mad about such a thing though.

>>15144575

Beat-em-ups almost always have a vs. mode. These vs. modes are very different from fighting games despite technically being 1v1 fights, because the mechanics of beat-em-ups it turns out are actually different from the mechanics of fighting games in some significant ways beyond simply fighting multiple AIs at the same time. However those still generally get closer to being a fighting game, at least a fighting game mode, because you don't have to autistically go through menus to play the game so differently from how it's usually played. You just pick that second or third option on the main menu.

>>15144645

If you concede that it's double not a beat em up at all.

autism is a renewable resource

>>15144652

I accept platform fighter, but that still sounds like a fighting game, like how a kart racer is still a racing game.

>>15144667

>I accept platform fighter, but that still sounds like a fighting game,

So what kind of fighting game do we call Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Touhou Hisoutensoku, Guilty Gear and such?

>>15144652

>Platform fighter has been used but Smash Bros fags here are getting mad about it because it is an acknowledgement that their game isn't the same as Street Fighter. I don't know why they'd get mad about such a thing though.

I have to agree. Believing that every fighting game has to mimic SF2 in some way is actually small minded. And, last I remember, a lot of fightingfags actually regret that SF2 became so popular because no every fighting game uses that title as a basis of what "defines" a fighting game rather than possible experimenting with what can be done.

>>15144667

I like the term too.

>>15144682

Street Fighter-likes

>>15144682

>Guilty Gear

Wasn't that the game that kicked off the term "Anime fighter"?

>>15144684

>…because now every…

Fixed

It's just a fighter. Quit being autistic about genres.

>>15144667

It is a "fighting game" if you're an overly literal autist who cannot comprehend non-concrete thinking. It's not a fighting game in the sense of what that term has come to mean in the sense of the name for a genre.

>>15144687

That's not an actual name. Those types of terms are what's used before an actual name is codified for them. FPS games were Doomclones, but now we have a different more accepted name. Street Fighter-likes have since been codified to fighting games. If you want a new term to catch on, it has to be better, not worse.

>>15144665

According to >>15144597 it's a spectrum and it's really so nebulous that any game where you fight things period can be considered a beat-em-up.

You should already be familiar with how a spectrum works, you're already on one after all.(48)

>>15144700

Genres are spectrums, though. Works can have elements of multiple genres, and be closer or further from one genre or another.

>>15144699

I still think it's a subset of the fighting game genre though. Seems to me Smash is to Street Fighter as Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo.

Street Fighter-like is a better name, in as much as it more accurately communicates what the sub-genre is.

>>15144705

I don't think any legitimate or accurate system of classification would fall under a spectrum especially one so ill defined by a gaming journalist.

>>15144720

I strongly think kart racers should be considered a separate type of game than racing sims, so I agree. But Street Fighter-like would be a proto-name. You'd be better off leaving things the way they are with the established genre and giving the less established genre its new name and accepting it, rather than trying to change the language to suit your tastes like some post-modernist propagandist liberal arts professor.

>>15144723

But they're not defined by journalists, they're defined by public consciousness. The public at large agrees on what terms mean over time, that's how terms have meaning. The public at large understands that Fighting Game means a game like Street Fighter and the countless other games like it, and not Smash Bros, which is a very different type of game.

>>15144745

I would say the entire reason we have this debate at all is because a lot of people look at Smash Bros and instantly think "fighting game" (I did when I was a kid). So there's your public consciousness. It's split down the middle.

>>15144423

/thread

>>15144745

The graph in question was quite literally put out by click-bait-y "games journalists". I'm not here to debate the progression of colloquial english based influenced by ignorant masses either. Theres a large percentage of people who are trying to muddy the waters when it comes to what constitutes a "Fighting game"

>>15144768

based on and* fucking phoneposting.

>>15144745

>The public at large understands that Fighting Game means a game like Street Fighter

Except if you were to ask the vast majority of gamers (aka the public at large) what a fighting game is they would say something like "it is a game where people fight each other". They might not even know what street fighter is much less use it as the basis of their definition. I can pretty much guarantee you that they wont start listing off things like "it has to be 1v1 and it can't have items and it can't have platforms" in the same way this conversation always goes.

>>15144773

maybe you should stop phoneposting, and post from a computer with a keyboard.

>>15144755

>I would say the entire reason we have this debate at all is because a lot of people look at Smash Bros and instantly think "fighting game" (I did when I was a kid). So there's your public consciousness. It's split down the middle.

I disagree. I think they look at it and think "Nintendo crossover." They probably don't think of a specific genre because platform fighters aren't popular. They wouldn't think of "fighting game" because by the time Smash Bros came out, fighting games were already strongly defined and had dozens of popular entries which all shared similar features and were all very different from Smash Bros.

>>15144768

I'm not talking about the graph though. All genres in all art forms exist on spectrums. Genres are just categories we create to help us find things that are similar to other things. If someone likes fighting games and asks for more fighting games, it'd be disingenuous to hand them Smash Bros instead of the dozens of actual fighting games you could hand them.

>>15144781

People on the street won't give detailed definitions just because they don't give a shit. If you hand them a list and ask them which ones are similar and which aren't, they'll all know Smash Bros is different though.

>>15144787

I'm on a late lunch break atm.

>>15144272

How do people like you even play video games? Is it also hard to walk and chew gum for you?

>>15144789

>People on the street won't give detailed definitions just because they don't give a shit.

So what you are saying is that it isn't the public at large but rather an autistic sub set that probably got beat by their friends that spent a bit of time learning how to wavedash.

>>15144812

I'm saying they won't give detailed definitions, not that they won't know. Just when doing street surveys you don't ask for detailed answers, you ask more specific questions to get your answers without having to make the person put too much effort and just walk away.

>>15144789

I find spectrums to be a problem when they are too large or the parameter are too ill defined.

There are things that perfectly exemplify a genre however and when something becomes much different from the standard, can it truly be considered to truly be the same genre or a sub genre requiring different classifications, but technically the same genre according to the layman who would argue it's the same because it exists on the same genre spectrum.

>>15144803

I can play every genre except fighting games. Something about fighting games fucks me all up.

>>15144899

It's the fact that there's a completely arbitrary barrier of entry. If first person shooters were fighting games, every gun would have different controls, and you'd have to spend hours in a training mode to learn how to fire them all.

>>15144916

That sounds like counter strike with bullet spray patterns.

>>15144916

It's not so much that "Every gun would have different controls" it's more so that 1. You have to learn how to use your gun(Ie knowing how to use special moves and cancels tech throws etc.) before you can even play any fighting game competently. With a shooter this isn't a problem as alot of people can still play the game(obviously not at a high level because mastery of shooters has a high skill ceiling aswell there just isn't this hard entry barrier like a fighting game)

Anyone who seriously thinks Smash is a competitive fighter needs to be gassed. They're the worst of the worst.

>>15145046

Why does it need to be competitive?

>>15144575

Guilty Gear Isuka

Smash's mechanics are legitimately a pretty good representation of fighting spirit, there's no set point at which damage will outright kill you, it just continually raises the skill floor for staying alive

>>15144283

>Sonic Battle

>Isometric

>Health

>No ring outs

>God Hand style complete moveset customization

>relate in gameplay and mechanics to Smash

>>15145084

B-but four players

>>15145441

>Hell, people joke about competitive Mario Party, why not make it a real thing?

https://www.speedrun.com/marioparty

>>15145540

Speedrunning doesn't count

>>15144079

No, because EVO are a bunch of niggers who hate true racing games, so no F-ZERO, no WipEout, no serious racing game for you, just mehro kratt.

>>15145595

Why wouldn't it.

>>15145663

It's not what I meant by "competitive" Mario Party. Speedrunning is trying to beat something as quickly as possible. I was talking more along the lines of turning it into something that could be legitimately played at tournaments.

I want someone to take the formula of Mario Party and turn it into e-sport bait.

>>15143686

>loser faggot

bet he's cooler than you.

He really shouldn't have worn sneakers though.

>>15145690

>Speedrunning is trying to beat something as quickly as possible

With the goal of trying to beat other peoples time, hence it's a competition which implies that speedrunning Mario Party is a competitive way to play the game. but yeah I understand that not exactly what you meant by competitive Mario Party

>I want someone to take the formula of Mario Party and turn it into e-sport bait.

It's so retarded the LoLfaggots would probably eat it up.

>>15145441

I see someone else watches game dungeon.

>>15140898

>Where did the myth com from stating that this was a party game?

It's literally Mario Party but instead of minigames it's just beating other characters. "Too many Mario characters" my ass.

>>15145690

>It's not what I meant by "competitive" Mario Party. Speedrunning is trying to beat something as quickly as possible. I was talking more along the lines of turning it into something that could be legitimately played at tournaments.

>I want someone to take the formula of Mario Party and turn it into e-sport bait.

You can race games, you know

>>15143693

And Tekken 3 had volleyball, while Tekken 5 also had bowling.

>>15146482

What game is he even from?

>>15148722

You have to be over 18 to post on this site

SMASH BROS CONFIRMED FOR BATTLE ROYALE

>>15141262

The funny thing is, melee has far more difficult input requirements than most fighting games.

Smash isn't a fighting game.

>>15148749

Is River City Ransom really that obscure? People usually bring it up when talking about must-play NES games and it's had tons of sequels and re-releases over the years

>>15148797

>Is River City Ransom really that obscure?

No. It's just that while people talk about it a lot, they have never actually played it.

>>15143731

Also this. For me all fighting games are party games.

>>15146384

Doom is literally Final Fantasy, but instead of a JRPG, it's just shooting things.

>>15140898

>Posting this fake video yet again

It's just TAS.

>>15149442

It's hard to make Brawl look fun when there's no weight, no wonder why it's a TAS.

>>15149688

A TAS with attack canceling.

>>15140898

Its a platform fighter

>>15149401

Any popular FPS is a shitty tf2 clone.

>>15144118

>"…1V1 NO ITEMS FINAL DESTINATION FOX ONLY is very far from the way the game is normally played…"

My best friend and I used to play like that on Smash for 3DS's local play. Matches were intense as fuck.

Why do smash fans make it something it isn't?!?!

>>15150283

You act as if 3DS is old or something. I want underage faggots to leave.

>>15150550

Anon I think it's already a 5 year old console.

>>15150550

I used to do it a couple of years ago.

Also I'm 27, nigger. Stop trying so hard.

>>15141131

Every "competitive" smashfag says that. I only said that because OP posted a different smash game though.