/v/ - Video Games

>>14860318

>then this?

Then what?

>>14860324

As this boss battle

>>14860318

Can you describe it to someone who hasn't played the Arkham games?

>>14860326

>As this boss battle

Then as this boss battle… what?

>>14860332

You're intentionally being a cunt,aren't you?

>>14860329

Whenever you try to attack him,he'll disable or counter attack the way you attacked him,so you can't do it again.

>>14860338

Are you new to video games?

>>14860318

How old are you OP

>>14860348

Maybe i'm doing a bad job at explaining it then,it's very specific the way he hard counters you

>>14860338

You've never played a game where a boss fights back once you hit him? Lay off the mobile games and lurk 2 more years before posting again.

>>14860329

It's a gimmick fight. Basically Freeze can only be damaged by methods you normally use to takedown enemies in stealth sequences, except once you use a method he destroys it so it cannot be used again. For example if you attacked from a vent, he freezes the vents so that you can no longer enter them. You blow out a weak wall, he destroys all other weak walls in the area. To put it simply it's like the Driver tutorial where it's a stealth tutorial and you have to go through a checklist of takedowns to get through it.

It's an okay fight by virtue of it feeling somewhat challenging and satisfying and not being a stupidly easy joke like every other fight in the entire series.

>>14860362

Yeah i should have said "are there any bosses that prevent cheesing as well as this one"

>>14860362

Also IIRC if you play on new game plus you have to use every single takedown in the game. It was pretty fun

>>14860362

It only seems good by compariuson, the rest of the fights in arkham games are painfully mediocre.

>>14860422

I felt like the objective best fight was Deadshot's in Origins. If the games were more like that, I'd be remembering them fondly instead of wondering why I played them all.

>>14860443

I'm not seeing any examples of other bosses doing it better,is my point

>>14860357

>OP talks about how the Boss counters you so you can't repeat tactics

>this is apparently the same as saying "he fights back once you hit him"

You're a fucking idiot. And yeah that actually does sound interesting, most boss fights are built around doing the same shit over and over.

>>14860474

I'll need to recheck what games in Yakuza count but I do remember one of the fights in the underground in a tournament in Yakuza 1 that had a well developed AI. Game allows you to grab enemies, hit for free damage then toss the ground and stomp for free damage. Once he gets to half health however he will start punching immediately if you get within grapple distance and if you actually succeed he breaks out immediately. Then he will stop taking easy hits from kicking unless you time it perfectly and if you fuck up he knocks you to the ground instead. A boss with the preset gimmick "you must kill him in these specific ways and only one time each" isn't adaptive or "countering" you, he's just a gimmick fight where you go through a checklist.

Hell, any AI that gets more aggressive as the game goes on count as this.

In addition in pokemon SoulSilver some of the gym leaders had teams conductive to preventing simple type advantage by having moves/secondary typings cover their weakness. I know there's a memegraph around here somewhere pointing it out as well. You can still cheese by over leveling but I can't count on the fingers of one hand how many RPGs take over leveling into account.

>>14860474

Oh also, Kingdom Hearts II has the Revenge Value system where different moves that hit and do damage raises a secret counter where the boss will do a full retaliation move or something similar once it hits a certain number. So if you just mindlessly mash X the boss will break out of any hit stun eventually. If you want something that is literally designed to prevent cheesing by targeting a very specific game mechanic. That is a far better example. If you want to watch a very low quality video of a sperg explaining it here you go.

>>14860590

Yeah i've heard KH2 has interesting boss fights

>>14860324

>then this

>Ra's Al Ghul is the fight before

no, I'd Mr. Freeze was the better of the two, chronologically

>>14860362

so it's like [SPOILER] the boss taking apart your guns in the last fight in MGS3

Virgil on harder difficulties is a fucking menace in DMC3 I also like boss fights where your opponent is very similar to you but the "Shadow Dante" bossfight is gimmick shit but it could of been really good.

>>14861662

God hand remake when

>>14861667

Go fuck yourself with that monkey's paw shit. Leave God Hand alone. Many many things are better left alone.

I don't remember exactly but didn't Ninja Gaiden Black prevent people from cheesing by making a move less and less effective if you used it too much?

Like if you use that jump and dive attack to get past the first area of the game the enemies in the second area will start blocking it.

>>14861667

Hopefully never

How was that fight responsive or cunning? You're just not allowed to do the same thing twice.

>>14861859

That's the fucking definition of reactive you spastic moron. It reacted to your moves. It was maybe a gimmicky fight, but it was reactive.

>>14862697

If you're going to play that loosely with the intention of the word "reactive," then you're going to have to go and find me an example of a boss that never reacts to anything the player does.

>>14862716

>bulge your old eyes to see farther down the SCOPE

Kojima is an idiot.

>>14860473

This man is Destiny. He was investigated by the FBI for pedophilia and child pornography.

However the combat assessment is correct.

Alien Soldier

Shadow of the Colossus

Monhun P3rd

Phantasy Star P2

Metal Gear Rising

In Iji, the last boss AI responds to how well you dodge certain attacks. If you dodge an attack pattern, he uses it less. If you get hit by an attack pattern, he uses it more.

>>14861615

Not really,you can just wail on souls bosses then dodge out of the way.

In Megaman Legends 2 some bosses would change their attacks based on how close you were to them. For example; one boss would use wide spread shots to try to hit you when you got close and more closely grouped shots when you were further away.

Also the final boss would hit you with an attack that was impossible to dodge if you didn't bait her to attack a different area, it takes a while to realize that the boss is changing her firing pattern based on where you are standing because they didn't make very obvious.

Not the same thing, but it was pretty neat.

>>14860318

>cunning and responsive

>literally just limit the player to using a move once and that's it

It may seem cunning and responsive by Arkham games' standards but it's ultimately still a piss-easy fight. Mr. Freeze is easy as fuck to avoid, even on hardest difficulty, and the only major obstacle is that you might get bored of this shit long before you finally execute all 12 or however many stealth take-downs there are to defeat him.

Arkham Origins' may be the exception in that the boss fights could sometimes be genuinely challenging but it's debatable how much of that is according to plan and how much is the player wrestling with shitty gameplay design. And even then, fuck WB Montreal for having you fight Bane 3 FUCKING TIMES.

>>14863695

who the fuck would like boss battle where you get screwed mid-fight because enemy completely changes its tactics unpredictably

your arguments are sound but you know jack shit about how to make it even remotely enjoyable

>>14863704

>who the fuck would like boss battle where you get screwed mid-fight because enemy completely changes its tactics unpredictably

Where did I mention any of that? Can you even read?

The Mr. Freeze boss fight is shit because the challenge comes from forcing the player to jump through a bunch of tedious hoops and not think on their feet. Mr. Freeze is slow as shit, can be easily misdirected and his heat-seeking missiles take fucking forever to fire, meaning that you have ages to find somewhere to hide and then wait for 2 more minutes for them to actually find you. There's no actual danger that you might lose unless you literally walk up right in front of him and let him blast you continuously with his ice ray.

>>14863695

>having you fight Bane 3 FUCKING TIMES.

He's a persistent guy

>>14860318

Alien isolation?

>>14860473

>>14862837

>However the combat assessment is correct.

No, it really isn't. He's right at the start of the game, there's mostly only regular orcs even in the fortresses.

Later on, there's berserkers that directly counter dodging by shoving you down and causing some damage, as well as ranged orcs that will fuck you up if you don't prioritize them. I'm sure I'm also forgetting some other stuff as well since there's more to it.

There's also the Captains with their own strenghts, several of them will fuck you up if you just spam attack and dodge too.

The game is fairly simple and easy (to the point they had to pad it with so much secondary shit) but this Webm is fairly stupid and I wish people criticized the game for it's actual shortcomings, not for bitching that the start of the game is easy.

It makes as much sense as saying that DOOM is piss easy because you can just dodge fireballs and shoot your shotgun in the first 2 levels.

OP, you have to be at least 16 to post on boards that aren't NSFW. The borg from Elite Force adapted to your weaponry if you used one too much on them.

>>14861667

It doesn't need remade, what it needs is a sequel with 2 player co-op.

>>14863824

I don't think Berserkers counter dodging. They counter direct attack, any time you hit a berserker with a regular attack it will automatically parry and counter you, meaning mashing attack is suicide when berserkers are around. I don't think they do anything against dodging. There are also defenders which have shields, but they can pretty much be considered berserker-lite because the shields only counter regular attacks and don't function at all if your combo is over a certain number (berserkers don't give a shit about your combo).

I think only captains with certain traits counter dodging. Also in Shadow of War any captain will "adapt" after you try to dodge over him a number of times temporarily gaining the trait that counters it. Shadow of war captains can be pretty bullshit because of the adaptation mechanic because between that, class traits and immunities they can end up being completely unkillable.

>>14863870

>I don't think Berserkers counter dodging.

Right, I mixed them up with the defenders, those are the ones that throw you back if you dodge in their direction.

But basically, Berserkers and Defenders countered mashing attack and dodge respectively, they just show up a bit later.

The game was still easy since you could spam E to stun them or use executions to handle these 2 or any other of the multiple tools at your disposal, the chalenge was pretty void past mid-game.

However it was still fun to kill orcs in several different ways and doing a spectacle out of it. I just don't really like how they misrepresent the game this badly when the real issue is how the Nemesis system barely did anything while also being too tied to the main story as well.

>Also in Shadow of War any captain will "adapt"

I only pirated the first one, the second game took too much space for me to even bother, but it did seemed like they understood what people liked in the first game, what they complained about and they worked with that to make a better game.

Shame about the lore and dropboxes, though.

Bloody crow of cainhurst in Bloodborne.

>>14860318

>>14860362

Super Mario RPG:

Bowyer would disable one of your buttons (for attacks, special moves, items) depending on which one you used the most before he uses the disable attack.

Super Mario RPG came out in 1996.

I hated this boss so much it almost made me give up on the game. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the Arkham series gets so much praise. They're all mediocre at best.

Ganon in The Wind Waker is a pretty obvious example, since he learns to block more of your moves as the battle goes on, until he learns to block everything you can do and you have to shoot a light arrow at Zelda's mirror shield to bounce it back at Ganon.

>>14865597

Better then the alternative

>>14865912

>You are barred from fighting the boss in a normal manner

>The specific manner in which you are allowed to fight the boss is scripted

Yes. Yes, I think we agree, that's a gimmick fight.

I think we can all at least agree the worst kind of bosses are the ones where you just wait for them to be retarded otherwise they're invincible.

>>14865597

The correct term is puzzle bosses, and puzzle bosses are often just shit (outside of actual puzzle games). The reason being that puzzle bosses have to be beaten by solving some abstract challenge or puzzle which has absolutely nothing to do with the skills you've learned and applied throughout the game (f.e. most first-person shooter bosses). The hardest part is figuring out the solution, but after that the boss often becomes easy as piss and isn't that engaging to fight on replays because the challenge is reliant on figuring out the answer to a puzzle rather than reflexes, strategy, that kind of thing.

Mr. Freeze is kind of half-half, in that your game knowledge is well utilized, but in a completely constrained manner. Once you figure out the gimmick, you're just going through the motions on replays. It's a kind of fight which is only fun for one time. Because every possible takedown method is taken away one by one, it's not that the boss naturally becomes more wary of you pulling that shit again and thus becomes harder to do, it becomes ABSOLUTELY impossible, leaving the player only one or a very few limited possible means of attack which are heavily dictated by the boss.

>>14866050

If you think about it the fight just makes him look retarded which in turn makes defeating him not satisfying at all. From the very start he had the capability to completely cockblock you but he didn't because reasons. The real Mr. Freeze is such a paranoid perfectionist that he'd have all the convenient vents and grates frozen shut or filled with traps before you even got there.

>>14866095

>Quake has movement

>Quake has teleporters

>So Shub-Niggurath isn't a gimmick boss

>>14866250

>False equivalence

You have predator encounters during the whole game and you have to use the predators technique unless you're a casual. It's a vital part of the gameplay, since you're fighting him as you would fight the other predator encounters, except this one is a boss.

>>14860318

Than, not then.

>>14860374

just play a training level in a fighting game for the same experience.

>>14866095

>Implying predator encounters are not normal

theyre not, hence why you called the "predator encounters" instead of just saying "attack"

>>14871772

>You have predator encounters during the whole game

As opposed to teleporters in Quake, which never appear.

>you have to use the predators technique unless you're a casual

Now that you mention it, I do recall all of those levels in Quake I was able to get through without ever moving.

>It's a vital part of the gameplay

Completely unlike movement and teleportation, yes.

>except this one is a boss

Oh, Shub-Niggurath isn't a boss. Got it.

>>14872073

>without ever moving.

i sat in my chair the entire game tbh.

>>14872066

>They're not

>Any group of 3 or 4 armed guy though the city becomes a predator encounter

>Not normal

>>14872073

You make no sense, anon. Shub-Niggurath makes you use elements that appear in-game, but not all of them and not in the best way, if he is at fault of something is being the last boss. Mr. Freeze is not a last boss, and you do use every technique of an significant part of the game, ie predator encounters, something you do through the whole game.

There's literally no comparison between Mr. Freeze and Shub-Niggurath. So if Shub-Niggurath is a gimmick boss, Mr. Freeze is not.

>>14872073

there are people that dont know what a gimmick boss is because many of them have never played a boss that wasnt a gimmick boss. there are even idiots who argue that a boss you fight just like a regular enemy, but its harder isnt a "true" boss at all.

games like Furi are boss rush games that entirely gimmick bosses. "you can only attack in this prescribed way or it does no damage"

new games often dont have boss battles, and if they do, theyre gimmick bosses. especially the kind of people dumb enough to play a batman game, one of the most brain dead AAA gaming experiences available.

>>14872130

>>They're not

>>Any group of 3 or 4 armed guy though the city becomes a predator encounter

>>Not normal

so predator encounters are just regular enemy encounters? but you feel the need to call them predator encounters because youre a massive fucking faggot?

>>14872164

only new action games are like that, usually cinematic ones.

every boss in the souls series is a true boss fight. mega man, mario, etc etc etc.

im not talking about weak points, im talking about boss battles that force you down a certain path to attack. if you cant use your normal attacks to damage the boss, then its not a true boss battle. if it forces you to only use certain methods.

>>14872136

I dare to say all bosses in the Arkham games are Gimmick except Mr. Freeze because you actually use what you normally do while playing.

Also, nice leddit spacing, faggot.

>>14872159

Holy shit, so you don't know a single shit about the game and you are still talking shit? There are 2 ways of taking regular enemies in the arkham games, free-flow encounters when they fight you with melee or predator encounters when they are armed. Both are equally big part of the game, because they are both the main way to take enemies.

Go and be a faggot somewhere else, probably Reddit judging by your spacing.

>>14872164

>>14872231

I agree with him, but he is still a faggot for talking shit about shit he doesn't even know.

By his definition, then not even battles in games like Crash are truly boss battles because you're forced to fight the enemy in certain ways. That's completely retarded, specially in games where boss fights are separate from the main game, like in Crash itself.

>>14872289

its called paragraphs, nigger. i like how you went out of your way to make a nice wall of text though, newfriend. dont worry, you'll fit in eventually.

>>14872289

>free-flow encounters when they fight you with melee or predator encounters when they are armed

so you cant just attack a guy if he has a gun? the game hardblocks you from it? instead of just making "predator faggotry" the most viable method?

why do you play such casual AAA cinematic trash?

>crash

crash bosses as much as i remember are not gimmick bosses. i dont even know how you come to that conclusion.

>>14872386

megaman doesnt have gimmick bosses. metal slug doesnt have gimmick bosses. super metroid doesnt have gimmick bosses. are those button mashers? or do you just not understand what a gimmick boss battle is?

>>14863796

That's pretty much what he said. Trolls keep trying to spin it as him being a pedo and reporting him to the FBI en masse, though

>>14872415

>its called paragraphs, nigger

A paragraph is not a single line of text, faggot. You leave lines even without changing the subject, and if you thin k what I wrote is a wall of text you sure don't belong in here. Go back.

>so you cant just attack a guy if he has a gun? the game hardblocks you from it?

The same way you can melee take an armed guy you can go predatory in a melee guy. You know why there's no limitation? Because they are both part of the main way to take enemies. As for Mr. Freeze, you can, in fact, melee hit him once, because it's part of the game.

>instead of just making "predator faggotry" the most viable method?

You have to run out of methods to take him down, including melee.

>crash bosses as much as i remember are not gimmick bosses

By your definition, the only way you could be Tiny, for example, is just simply run to him and jump on him, while you have to just run away from him until he falls, and the worst of all is Ripper Roo, or even that Crocodile thing.

>>14872130

>Shub-Niggurath makes you use elements that appear in-game, but not all of them and not in the best way

The entire fight itself is fighting a handful of Shamblers and Vores in a barebones layout compared to the preceding levels, and then figuring out that you can telefrag Shub-Niggurath since it is completely invulnerable otherwise and doesn't do anything else anyways. It doesn't test you on your exploration skills, it doesn't particularly test you on your movement skills, it doesn't test you on your weapon management skills (you will only use the shotgun against the fish and the SNG/RL against the Shamblers/Vores), and it doesn't really test you on anything which other normal levels didn't do a better job at.

The only remaining challenge is figuring out the puzzle and figuring out that telefragging is a thing, which is never required or (intentionally) alluded to in the other levels. It's something you're more likely to learn from having played the multiplayer. By no means is that a good recipe for a FPS boss fight, let alone a final boss fight. If Shub-Niggurath was just a regular bulletsponge it would have been your regular shitty FPS boss fight just like most of 'em in the genre, but hiding the vulnerability away in some abstract puzzle is what transforms this fight from a shitty boss fight to a shitty puzzle boss fight.

D'sparil in Heretic isn't something I consider an actually good boss fight, but it's got way more naturally challenging things going on, such as spawning additional enemies which spam bullets, firing projectiles which rebound off walls, and constantly teleporting around the arena forcing you to keep moving (which he does more the lower his health gets).

>>14872192

Furi bosses are gimmick bosses (after all, each boss DOES bring his own gimmick in the sense that their gimmick never reappears again later in the game), just not with the negative connotation you think they deserve. There's nothing wrong with bosses challenging only a smaller part of your moveset, it makes sense that they'd limit every other element which isn't directly being challenged. Some boss fights are more heavy-handed with what attacks are 'allowed' or not. This only becomes a problem when there is literally only one way of dealing with the boss, and the challenge is largely derived from figuring this solution out rather than actually executing it or using multiple facets of your moveset to your advantage.

A defining feature of a good boss fight is that there's good ways and EXCELLENT ways to beat a boss. Good ways usually requiring you to just survive and excellent involving you killing the boss in record time without even a single scratch. This is also why The Line in Furi is the worst boss in the entire game. Per phase you can only either use melee or use your gun, but never both at the same time, while the parts where time is frozen and you can only melee your way out don't completely take place in the pie slice combat phase where the melee combat is more expanded. What you end up with is a boss fight where there's only one viable strategy with no room for improvement because you can't use all your tools at once, so there's very little speedkill potential here, placing the onus less on creative application of your moves but instead rigid optimization. That is where you get into puzzle boss theory.

>>14872498

I don't really disagree with you or the other anon on that, but you do have to fight Shamblers and Vored. My problem is that there's literally no comparison between it and Mr. Freeze.

>>14872501

It's fun. It's more of a Rhythm game in my opinion, and even though the game is really easy, the real challenge is getting to real high combos or sneaking into enemies in the hardest and most point effective ways.

>>14872628

strangely enough, they keep updating it every time they add a new class, demon hunters screen's turn completely black when he casts their spell or whatever, monk and dk does stuff too but I don't remember

>>14872628

shaman call is the fucking worst u end up having totems heall the boss and if u push it to phase 3 while shaman call is up the totems will heal the skeletons

>>14872724

>i dont maximize my window, nigger brain.

You should, then you'd realize how much of a leddit spacing waste of a faggot you are.

>a gimmick boss since he pigeonholes you into specific attacks

You have all attacks from the beggining and they go reducing them one by one. You're FORCED to use everything you know about predatory encounters.

>Comparing 3D fighters with Arkham games

Jesus, just kill yourself.

>>14873331

>You're FORCED to use everything you know about predatory encounters.

>You're FORCED to fight in a very specific manner to beat the boss

>But this doesn't make it a gimmick boss

At this point I have to wonder if you're actually just ignorant.