/tg/ - Traditional Games

>>415501

>remember an open source Qt5 VT

https://github.com/Rolisteam/rolisteam

>see license

Oh

>>415512

nvm I'm retarded, it's in the COPYING.txt not the COPYRIGHT file

I am a dev. I would gladly work on something. But I imagine it is a pretty big fucking task. What's the absolute minimum you would want? I am thinking a virtual table, networked, with the GM capable of hiding and revealing certain aspects? To me, this absolute bar minimum is something as simple as a network drive, or maybe OneNote or similar. Am I missing something? Because it seems like everything you need for a VT already exists.

>>415518

To be fair I was thinking of cobbling shit together out of a ton of libraries.

Basically I was thinking Roll20, but in a standalone application, and with some kind of embedded scripting language so people can customise it.

Tabletop simulator? >>415501

>>415524

To what end though? Like, do you want Roll20? It already exists.

>>415528

Roll20 is shit, though. Customizing any aspect of any system is extremely difficult, and it is clear it wasn't built with digital-only tabletop systems, since all the functions their "scripting" language provides are not enough to automatize or keep track of the grittier aspects of the system (no automatic movement/range radius functionality yet is a fucking disgrace). It is also laggy as shit, and the map making tools are terrible.

You're being too vague. Put together a design doc or a realistic list of goals then head to /agdg/.

>>415524

You just described Maptool. What's wrong with it?

>>415540

Anon. It sounds like you want a videogame. A VT should be able to feature hand drawn maps and tokens you can just move. It might not even need grid coordinates. I dont think you need a scripting language or anything like that, why do you even need to automate, just have a fucking spreadsheet if you really need.

>>415555

It's got contributor covenant

>>415564

>powerful automatization is bad

Anon, it sounds all you want is a collaborative drawing board.

>>415567

The vast majority of RPGs don't require any severe automation to begin with. They're made to be played with paper and pencil after all. The only place that most shared drawing apps and sites fall short is lack of dice and no easy way to handling character sheets that can be easily edited and moved out of sight as necessary.

>>415576

>The vast majority of RPGs don't require any severe automation to begin with.

80s RPG with a thousand silly rules and tables would like to have a word with you. Stuff like difficulty modifier suggestion tables for rolls, reminders/tracking of several buffs or combat stages, automated chargen (which is already a thing in many modern RPG, even with specific desktop programs), range checks, random loot tables... computers were made to replace spreadsheets and automatize menial tasks, after all. No need to get overzealous about giving the GM more tools to create his own adventures, and not just recycle stuff found on the web.

>>415587

Unless you're talking about FATAL, you are grossly exaggerating the difficulty of playing such games. Not to mention how absurd it is to painstakingly program all the contents of every book into a VTT just to save you the difficulty of writing down a page number or screencapping a PDF. It's like suggesting we should build a spaceship to cross the street.

>>415591

You clearly never played games online and you cant understand how coders think and why they do what they do. Imagine driving a car instead of walking, how absurd is that? You have legs, you should just walk.

>>415591

>you are grossly exaggerating the difficulty of playing such games

Not at all. If you want to ignore half of the rules for simplicity's sake, of course they are, but if you want to play them properly, you need reminders for edge cases. I would know, I play old games almost exclusively, and the amount of tables and small modifiers that should be applied for proper balance is so big I usually forget about half of them per roll.

>Not to mention how absurd it is to painstakingly program all the contents of every book into a VTT just to save you the difficulty of writing down a page number or screencapping a PDF

Unironically, mods will fix it. That's more or less what happened with Roll20 outside of the official D&D subsystems they have, but the program is terribly limited. Imagine how would it work with a proper mod API. Or rather don't, and check out the crazy scripted shit people put in the Tabletop Sim workshop.

>>401654

Some of this stuff has been brought up before, and there's been some listed programs that do decently for handling character sheets, pdfs, various bonuses and whatnot. Sounds like we've picked up a few new members, so I'd like to point out the rules, and to familiarize yourselves with the catalog to prevent too many repeated topics from occurring. OpenRPG works pretty well, albeit it's annoying the process of installing all the libraries in the correct order before the programs works correctly.

>>415595

>I would know, I play old games almost exclusively, and the amount of tables and small modifiers that should be applied for proper balance is so big I usually forget about half of them per roll.

What system and would you care to provide an example?

>>415599

I remember using OpenRPG a long time ago. It was pretty decent when you got the hang of it.

>>415601

The one I play the most is Cyberpunk 2020. While most rolls are usually your stat + your skill + the result of the dice, characters become overpowered as fuck (we are talking a single PC finishing a fight in the first turn, kind of like that scene in Blade Runner 2049) if you don't factor in the difficulty modifiers table. Target difficulty for mid range shooting is 15, but it is extremely easy to optimize a character to get a +20 to their shooting rolls, even more if we take implants into account. If said character is carrying an AR, they could, for example, easily kill 4 opponents.

>Ripperjack the Minmaxer gets ambushed by 4 cops armed with SMG and some light armor.

>Ripperjack the Minmaxer knows he is good. Fuck if he is good. He has +10 Combat Sense (that's +10 to INIT, and a lot of starting cash), +10 REF, +10 to Rifles, and a funny set of implants which give him +2 to INIT and +3 to his Rifles, with his Rifle giving him another +1 to accuracy, and his Laser Sight another +1. We are not taking his Adrenal Booster nor REF drugs into account (both require one turn to quick in) since the cops took him by surprise. This gives him +22 to INIT, and +25 to Rifles. Base. This is all in the base manual; you don't want to know what kind of stuff you can find in the splatbooks. Again, this is easy as shit to achieve, and any person could do it with a minimum knowledge of the game, with the vanilla rules.

>The cops are relatively close to him. By close, I mean they are between 100 and 200 meters from him. This means the target difficulty is 15. To calculate this, you have to check the distance between both of them (150 m), find the full range rating of the weapon that is being fired (400 m for AR), then check the firing distances table, and divide the full range by the appropriate amount (in this case, it fits within the 1/4 full range) to find the base difficulty. This is manageable by an average GM.

>Ripperjack the Minmaxer knows he can set his AR to burst mode to save bullets, and to get a +3 to his accuracy check. This is manageable by a... okay, I want to say an average player, but considering the average player, this is starting to get into rules lawyer player tier territory. This makes for a total of +28.

>Let's also say he wants to take no chances, and decides to quickdraw. Quickdraw gives him +3 to INIT, but -3 to his rolls. This gives him a total of +25 INIT.

>He targets all four guys in the same turn. He can do this. CP2020's RAW say you take a -3 to for each subsequent action after your first one, but this was later corrected in other books, simply because it is a no brainer to take further actions otherwise. The correct rules state that characters get -3 to each action taken during their turn for each extra action they take. Ripperjack then gets a -9 modifier to his attacks. This is manageable by an average GM as well.

>Cyberpunk 2020's rules state that burst fire, on success, hits for 1d6/2 bullets. Since we are rounding down, most of the time we will be hitting 2 bullets.

>Cyberpunk 2020's rules also state that aiming to the head is a -4 to hit (technically, a +4 to difficulty, but that's just being pedantic). A headshot doubles damage. This can be managed by an average GM as well, but it is starting to get unwieldy. Of course, Ripperjack is going to do that.

>Ripperjack shoots the shit out of the cops because he goes first. His final modifier is +15, for a target difficulty of +15. Unless he rolls a 1, he will kill all those cops in the first round.

>>415608 (cont.)

This makes it seem Cyberpunk 2020 is bullshit. And it is, and it's not even as bullshit as Cyberpunk 2013, but let's take a closer look to rules to see if the encounter should be somewhat harder:

>The difficulty modifiers table says:

<The cops are actually moving into position, so they are not static. That is not relevant for the roll, except one of the cops is actually an ex-military murderborg, and so he has REF 12. A target with REF 12 gets a -4 to hit .

<The cops broke and entered the room by putting some microexplosives in the door. This caused a lot of debris and dust to cloud the air. According to the book, this is a -3 to hit.

<There is not enough light. According to a table outside of the GM screen, this is also a -3 to hit. Yes, I fucking had to check a different page to get this one modifier.

<Ripperjack hasn't slept for two days, and it's taking a toll on his mind and body. This is a -4.

Applying the modifiers above, the total target difficulty would be a 25, except for the ex-military cop, which would have a target difficulty of 29. Ripperjack has a 10% chance (rolling a 10) of hitting the cops. He wouldn't have a chance to hit the special cop. Now, this looks more balanced, but we had to check two different tables for modifier suggestions. Roll20, the "baseline" program for VT, does not even have GM screen functionalities. You have to implement them yourself via shitty notes, or using a different website or program.

>Cops are wearing body armor. In fact, they are wearing helmets with a SP of 12. For each bullet that hits them, you must subtract 12 to the damage dealt. Most of them have BODY 8, which means you will also have to subtract an additional -3 to damage (Body Type Modifier, another table that you have to calculate at character creation), but if you reduce damage to 0 or below using the BTM, you always take at least 1 DMG.

>The murdercop actually has skinweave, which means he is layering armor. There is a table that explains how to add up armor, because they do not just get summed, as that would be too easy. According to this, since the difference between his standard grade armor with SP 12 and his SP 12 skinweave is between 0 and 4, he would have +5 to SP, added to his base +12 SP of the highest armor value he has, for a total of +17 SP. He is also bulkier than the rest, with BODY 14, so that means it is -5 to his BTM (or not, since the exact numbers for BTM are scattered across the manual, and the rules for BODY >10 are ambiguous).

>Let's say the cops manage to take a beating and survive despite the odds. Each bullet that goes through their armor will reduce the SP of their armor by 1. You have to calculate this for each bullet, consecutively. This may sound easy with just 2 bullets, but when you are calculating 20 shots from a full auto rifle, it stops being so funny.

>Woops, Ripperjack has fumbled one of his shots. We have to roll in the fumble table to see what happens. Did you know each weapon has a Reliability rating that gives a modifier to the rolls against this table?

>One of the cops has managed to take cover. It's a small, tactically placed wooden crate full of metal scrap. Let's say this has a SP of 14. According to the rules, you have to check the fucking armor layering table to determine the effective SP of the cover. Let's say the cop taking cover is the murdercop: his new base armor is the crate, so 14, and we have to reapply the 12 of his armor (+5 to that 14, or 19), and then the 12 SP skinweave (which is no longer in the 0 to 4 range of 19, so it now falls in the +4 territory, or 23 effective SP)

>One of the cops decides to activate his Sandevistan. This will give him a boost to his INIT for the following turns. He will probably die earlier, but you have to track that shit.

>You don't fucking want to know how many times you will have to perform divisions if Ripperjack decides to use his armor piercing bullets.

And, despite all of this, the game manages to be very enjoyable, because I happily ignore half of the rules. Because I can't fucking remember them, and because I can't be assed. Still, all of these rules make sense, and thus, it would be nice to apply them, but no human can do it in a timely manner. Which is why automating them would be neat. I would also like to add the autism above was written before the authors even imagined VT, so they definitely thought they were making a tabletop RPG and not a videogame.

>hurr Cyberpunk 2020 is just a shit game

A not so blatant, but still good example, is oWoD's roll system. I remember it took me around 20 seconds to check the result of a roll of 8 dice. And I wasn't even maxed out. Don't even want to imagine how it is to play Exalted in paper.

I think when you're play a tabletop RPG online you need more automation. When playing in person and it's not my turn I can have a side conversation with the player next to me and we can entertain ourselves. But playing online, only one person can talk at a time. So when another player's turn drags on it gets annoying. It's super nice to have things Just Work so the game can get moving.

>>415501

What's wrong with Roll20? The interface I mean, obviously we all know what's wrong with the community.

>>416178

I've been wondering this myself...