/tg/ - Traditional Games

>>407060

>x2 superior fencing swords

*razor swords

For The Darkest Hour in time of high adventure, i want to try to do a demo of fc in my flgs but what level characters would be good to throw at the players, assuming i print out cheat sheets for their feats and stuff? I was thinking level 7 just so the priest would have more options during the game.

>>415138

>>415186

Fantasy Craft has a mechanic where sometimes you can raise the limit on how many skill points you can put into a skill, if you do the whole pathfinder skill thing people won't be able to use that to specialize deeper in certain skills.

I think it is called "inspired X" where X is the skill. You'll find a lot of player races have it so it is probably going to come up.

I don't know why I saged this post >>415186

Didn't mean to.

>>415195

>Rather than just have them jot down 'Study: Flute' better to have them write down 'Study: Wind Instruments'.

That makes a lot of sense.

>Remember, a study isn't just the practical use of a thing, but its theoretical knowledge too.

I thought it was mostly/all theory rather than practice. I also considered using synergy bonuses for different uses of Impress, like Prestidigiation for appropriate instruments or Haggle/Sense Motive for some diplomatic uses.

>Defining or using elements of the types you are trying to articulate is where the Class abilities come into play. Trust the system.

Hmm. Maybe my players and I are stuck too much on building toward specific abilities instead of picking the options that seem right for the character idea we want.

>And yet they don't find Pathfinder - which we often pejoratively refer to as MATHfinder - tedious?

Not so much for typical character creation, which is sort of the entry point for most games.

>You are hereby required to report back with the game you run.

I'll make sure I do.

>Give us stories for god sakes, the assholes in this thread spend too much time theory-hammering out builds and talking about numbers. I stick around because I want to collect some twine for my ball of yarns.

Oops, some of that's me.

>>415196

That's exactly the kind of issue I was looking for. Thanks.

It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be much more expensive at character creation. If you have an Enlightened skill (Career Level +5) then you have to lose out on 2 other maxed skills instead of half of one at 1st level. Yikes.

Since we are still in Spellbound NeverEver time, what do you guys use to shore up the spell selection in Fantasy Craft?

>>415254

The spells were leaked? I've never seen that, do you have a link to it by chance? I would love to have those options to add to the game I'm trying to get started. Especially since its a lot of people coming over from your usual Pathfinder and 5E fare.

>>415298

Last link in the OP.

>>415330

>My recommendation is to hit them with a classic monster from D&D found in the Fantasy Craft bestiary that just cannot be defeated by conventional means - assuming you follow every special rule listed with the creature and all the rules that govern combat interactions with it.

Would it help to give them some kind of tag-along weak NPC who can show them the right stuff to do, or is it more appropriate to give them a Hint? I've short FC games with players who gave up after they found a monster's DR was eating most of their damage output. They thought it was a "supposed to lose" fight and when I tried to explain that there are other tracks to defeating an enemy and pointing to the combat actions, they weren't getting it (maybe I explained poorly).

>My other recommendation is to try and take all the conventional, recurring phenomena you find in a Standard D&D game and put that same situation or problem in Fantasy Craft, modified such that it requires a different solution than what they would expect.

The smart thing to do is work backward from the abilities the PCs have, isn't it? Finding a normal problem where their ability would be an elegant solution.

>I admit sometimes I think I'm the only fucking person who has game mastered Fantasy Craft at all but I am happy to be wrong.

I've GMed some one-shots and a couple short campaigns, also with players familiar with 3.x

>but the culture of players both in the past and some even in the present suffer from that recurring old testament mentality of GM vs Player roleplaying. You had to min-max just to make sure you got past the 1st level / you had to GM like an asshole because your players were themselves assholes.

I know that's not a problem with this group at least. Most of us have GM experience. Probably more that they tend to fall into habits instead of defaulting to creative thinking. Some of them I know have played the same archetype over and over.

>>415352

>It no longer becomes their triumph even if they were just following the advice of an NPC. You have stolen that.

The problem I run into is when players don't want to figure things out, and just want to hit stuff or cast spells or pick locks. Part of why I want to get them on FC is that they normally approach things that way even when an encounter is more suited to a different approach. They sometimes default to "put square peg in square hole" thinking and it doesn't occur to them to try other things. There's also going to be at least one new player and some players with FC experience, and I want to contrast how they respond.

>we know our players can be idiots but we love them anyway in spite or because of this, so there's nothing wrong with an advisor - but that advisor must not, and cannot, steal the spotlight from them

Yeah I was thinking like with the slime example, bringing the quest giver as a guide to the objective, making sure at least they have a lit torch, and have the slime avoid wherever there's torch fire. If they're too thick, I'd have the NPC bumble around near the slime to emphasize the reaction. Not enough? They drop the torch on the slime or something. Probably a decent early game adventure, since they won't have very valuable gear or much of it.

>And you didn't storytime in here?

I did, I think. Maybe a previous thread? It was like 2+ years ago.

>I'd invite them to try something out of the ordinary for them

Tried it with one of them before, and he immediately missed his old archetype.

>because if they step into a Fantasy Craft character thinking it'll operate the same way their usual character build will work they will learn that is not the case.

You can still do the basics, it's more that the toolbox of class abilities, feats, and tricks presents mechanics that they ignore in favor of "hit stuff," "cast a spell," etc since that tends to solve problems too and requires less effort for what they see as equal reward. I would think that giving enemies weaknesses would help, but it doesn't really. Just giving them a resistance or immunity wasn't enough to prompt a creative approach. I think I have to give them a square peg and square hole (other than "hit until dead") and give them very leading hints toward the way(s) to succeed. That and making sure I give action dice when they try something interesting even if it fails entirely. One of my players will try creative solutions until a couple don't go according to plan and then he gets discouraged.

>>415346

>Would it help to give them some kind of tag-along weak NPC who can show them the right stuff to do, or is it more appropriate to give them a Hint?

How about thinking of more natural ways to give them a hint instead? Like, describing how the monster reacts to the attacks or it's surroundings? If you throw in a few easy ones of those, like the skeletons or slime the other anon mentioned, then they'll either take the hint and think of different ways to defet enemies in future encounters. If that doesn't work then there's no real reason to have them encounter such monsters later one, even if you include such a helper NPC.

>>415330

>D&D's Ivory Tower design

Really it's not just the "system mastery", it's the way feats and skills work in 3.x that is to blame. Your character can only get a limited number of them so it's better to focus on your "main role" instead of having a more balanced character. And spellcasters tend to reinforce this attitude even more.

>>415330

>Skeletons and Slimes are excellent for this. Skeletons because they have Damage Immunity to Bows and Damage Defiance (half damage taken) to Swords - that's half the damage they receive after Damage Reduction sources apply - like whatever armor they are wearing.

That's not going to phase any decent D&D/PF player. Taking a bludgeoning backup weapon is melee 101 and even WotC themselves repeatedly recommended it in their "____ With Class" series of web articles.

>It's always a good idea, however, to have a second melee weapon available in case you lose your primary weapon or it proves ineffective. Make sure this weapon deals a different kind of damage from your primary weapon. If you normally use a longsword (a slashing weapon), for example, consider a morningstar (which deals both bludgeoning and piercing damage) as a backup.

In-fact, it's not unusual for newly created characters to pack an alchemical silver light mace, cold iron dagger and some lantern oil rigged as bombs in case of swarms.

>>415375

As much as I love FC, shit like that is hard to excuse. There's no fucking reason they should have made layout decisions like that, especially because they weren't amateurs and had a mountain of Spycraft books under their belts already.

>>415376

>How about thinking of more natural ways to give them a hint instead?

Tried it.

>describing how the monster reacts to the attacks

Would require them to try different things. Once I communicate that one thing doesn't work they assume they can't win.

> or it's surroundings?

My players usually feel cheated if I put the solution in the environment. I've never gotten a good response to what gets interpreted as "there's a big chandelier dangling above the monster, hint hint."

>If you throw in a few easy ones of those, like the skeletons or slime the other anon mentioned, then they'll either take the hint and think of different ways to defet enemies in future encounters.

I tried skeletons with some of these players and I had to tell them the mechanics when they didn't get "there's no flesh for your blade to slice, but the impact of the weapon still deals half damage." Then they were annoyed about that and the fact that most blunt weapons deal subdual damage, to which undead are immune. So unless you brought one of the lethal damage blunt weapons, it's either half damage from edged weapons or half damage and attack penalty to convert to lethal with most blunt weapons. I houserule that skeletons have achilles heel (blunt) now and feel like they probably should have had that to begin with.

>If that doesn't work then there's no real reason to have them encounter such monsters later one, even if you include such a helper NPC.

Sure but if you're not going to use what makes FC interesting what's the point? Damage types isn't even a FC thing. D&D has it. It's pretty universal. If all you want out of a game is whittling down a damage pool and describing how you make attacks, you can do that with one page of rules and a character on an index card.

>>415400

>>415376

My GM experience is that the players who were used to D&D were stuck enough in the D&D mindset they had trouble with the same concept using different mechanics (see the skeleton example above in this post). That's part of why I want the new player(s) to start with FC since it specifically doesn't teach narrow thinking and D&D's character build logic.

>>415402

>>415375

I always felt like they went for saving on page count over having a good layout. Which is weird because at the same time they insert a lot of pictures in a way that seems random.>Taking a bludgeoning backup weapon is melee 101 and even WotC themselves repeatedly recommended it

>>415411

>I've always felt like they were saving on page count over having a good layout.

Crafty-Games has specifically stated that this was the reason. They're a small company and at the time of first & second printing, Fantasy Craft was one of the largest books they put money down to publish.

I'm getting ready to run a play by post game, anyone have any experience or advice with this?

Speaking of layouts, what would any of you want from a redesigned character sheet? I want to fix a couple of things that have bothered my players in the past (e.g. move Lifestyle and money to the gear page), but I also don't want to miss any other potential improvements. I'll leave out the details for planned changes for now (in case they conflict with better suggestions), but the idea is that the new sheet would be organized clearly for ease of use, while still being usable for high-level PCs (avoid running out of space).

So whose dick I gotta suck to find a game for this thing

When is Spellbound?

>>415847

Current ETA looks like not actually that long. Maybe 2019 or 2020. >>415366

>As Scrye II, except that while projecting you may also cast spells up to Level 3 as if you’re located at your point of view.

>A bolt of lightning appears beneath your feet, carrying you to any location in the Area you can see. This

lightning cannot cause damage, nor may it penetrate objects or barriers, though it may thread between objects and

through openings if you can fit.

Does Scrye III+Ride the Lightning really make for a ghetto Dimension Door? Not that useful in Fantasy Craft since schools aren't restricted, but it seems neat in Spycraft 2.0 (Where Teleport doesn't exist)

Is fire damage really as retardedly broken as it seems?

>must make reflex save against damage or catch on fire

>if on fire, must spend entire turn trying to put it out if they don't make a will save against the same DC

>all your efforts trying to put it out are nullified at best if you're hit by more fire

>fire damage spells deal much more damage than a normal spell DC

At level 6 a Scorching Ray deals ~22.5 damage to a single target and if the whole party joins (throwing oil at the victim) the blaze just gets hotter and hotter.

>>415907

Scrye III can look a lot farther away (Remote: 1000 feet) than Ride the Lightning can take you (100 feet + 10 per CL, max 300 feet), but you might as well use Scrye I since casting a spell from your projected view doesn't help in this case. So that's a level 1 spell and a level 3 spell (DD is 4), and you have to be able to physically get there, meaning there must be a path you can fit through. You don't get to move "as the crow flies" like with DD either, and your path is limited to 110-300 feet instead of 1000.

So yeah, "ghetto Dimension Door" is apt. The reason to get this in FC is that you may not have access to level 4 spells. If your build has slow Circle of Power progression this might come in handy. E.g. a pure mage gets CoP4 at level 9. If you go into Rune Knight at level 5, you only get CoP3 at level 11.

>>415912

By the wording it's not exactly clear whether additional fire damage just adds to ongoing damage or provokes its own DCs, but yeah fire damage is supposed to be extreme. The downside is that it spreads to scenery and can quickly get out of control (and harm whoever uses it). I think it's supposed to be like the nuclear option.

The will save is actually to balance out the lethality though. The worse it is the more likely the mechanics force you to reduce the damage. Since it only gets worse by 1d6 on its own, losing 10 damage per round will always reduce it (although again, it's ambiguous by the wording whether you still add 1d6 per round if you are putting it out):

<Until put out, any fire — whether on a character or scenery — worsens by 1d6 damage per round.

<Putting out a fire by any means — water, blankets, etc. — decreases a fire’s damage by 10 points per round.

Does "until put out" mean "until it's gone" or "until you start taking the "put fire out" action? GM discretion - how safe do you want fire to be? Also, like the Chunky Salsa Rule, fire should be subject to logic. If a character jumps under water or otherwise removes any oxygen, it should go out immediately. With a fire spell this is actually explicit in the rules:

<Fire: This spell cannot be cast underwater. Also, any effect or item generated by the spell is suppressed when submerged.

If you're concerned about fire damage, here are some options:

<Give the monster a way to put out fires instantly (the trick being getting the damage enough they fail the Will save)

<Have the enemy kamikaze the party when on fire.

<Make sure fire spreads to the environment and threatens the party or allies (and their stuff).

<Have friendly NPCs get mad or hold the party accountable for property damage.

<Give a character Winter' Domain and rule that it also suppresses non-magical fire effects (which have a Caster Level + Spell Level of zero).

>>415946

>Scrye III can look a lot farther away (Remote: 1000 feet) than Ride the Lightning can take you (100 feet + 10 per CL, max 300 feet), but you might as well use Scrye I since casting a spell from your projected view doesn't help in this case.

Why doesn't "as if you’re located at your point of view." help?

>The downside is that it spreads to scenery and can quickly get out of control (and harm whoever uses it).

Meh, create water is on list and free. Not an issue at all if fighting in a cave, desert, stone castle or other stone structure (most tombs).

"Age (per category of difference)" is listed under the disguise skill. What category? I can't find any such thing.

>>415967

You know, that's re

>>415967

>Why doesn't "as if you’re located at your point of view." help?

You could interpret the rules so that it does, but strictly speaking, if the lightning appears where you're scrying (as if you were there) and not where you physically are, how are you going to ride it?

>Meh, create water is on list and free. Not an issue at all if fighting in a cave, desert, stone castle or other stone structure

True but if the fire takes hold in more than one spot you are liable to let it spread one place while putting it out another (and the book says it's -10 per round however you're putting it out, maybe you could grant a discretionary magic bonus to that). And you can always stick flammable cobwebs or slime on stone walls.

Can fittings get the fitted upgrade or just the combined armor?

>>415997

I knew the 3.5 rules, but was wondering if there was an official answer.

>>415994

Isn't getting rid of that stuff a bonus?

>>416012

>Can fittings get the fitted upgrade or just the combined armor?

You could houserule fittings can have upgrades for fun (I'd like some dwarven armor with elvish fittings please), but the rules say no. page 174, section Armor Upgrades, last paragraph:

<Upgrades may not be applied to fittings and may not decrease any armor penalty below 0.

>I knew the 3.5 rules, but was wondering if there was an official answer.

No official answer afaik. The crafty forums have a topic for this, they say the same. FC is an OGL game so importing rules from 3.x or OGL games is supposed to be part of the system anyway. Since age isn't factored into the point-buy system for species creation, it's de facto deemed not very relevant (unless a species has a type that doesn't age at all).

>Isn't getting rid of that stuff a bonus?

What, flammable clutter? It doesn't have to be difficult terrain or otherwise mechanically relevant, just some crap on the ceiling that can catch fire and possibly catch characters on fire as pieces fall off. Here, let me whip up a Trap (table 7.6 p339)

Falling Embers (35 XP)

If the party plays with fire too much, they may have to contend with this environmental hazard.

Mechanism: Falling object (bypass skill Search to determine where it will fall)

Difficulty: Simple DC 10 + 1/2 Threat Level, 2 Challenges

Concealment: Poor (1d20+5 Notice DC)

Target: Random party member

Effect: Fire damage (1d6 fire damage per 2 TL, Reflex 15 for 1/2 damage)

Any time fire would spread to something that might cause embers to fall and light up players, pull this on them. Roll Notice to determine if they see the danger and have someone roll Search to determine where not to stand. For extra fun, you can add the Cave-In effect if something load bearing burns. +20 XP and they have to spend time digging through the rubble. Of course, since this grants XP you may end up encouraging players to set everything on fire to boost their leveling. Enterprising players might even lure enemies to stand in the way.

This thread is past the limit, anyone making a new one?

What are the best advanced actions/tricks other than the attribute sub ones in the Adventure Companion and those that grant free attacks?

>>416243

Best is subjective. Depends on your build and campaign. E.g. Called Shot is essential if you're fighting armored knights all the time but worthless if you only fight creatures. Mix-Up is good if you're not much of a combatant, and customizable to your good moves. The first ones you should get are of course any prerequisites for other options you want.

>>416167

I'll make one in a bit. Post suggestions if you want me to add something to the OP.

Sorcerer gives me a bonus species feat and

>Each time you gain 1 or more ranks in the Spellcasting skill, you gain equal ranks in the Intimidate skill. This may not increase your Intimidate skill beyond its maximum rank.

I can spend that on Fire Brave and Fire Elder and get

>Each time you gain 1 or more ranks in the Intimidate skill, you also gain an equal number of ranks in the Spellcasting skill. This may not increase your Spellcasting skill beyond its maximum rank

This sounds like it causes an infinite loop where one skill point gets me capped ranks in spellcasting and intimidate.

>>416530

IMO the fair ruling is that either way lets you get all those points at half cost. Even with the infinite loop, you're talking 8 points for 1 point at 1st level and the normal 2 for 1 after that. Paired skills both way is rare enough that a generous GM might allow that.

>>416400

any new Spellbound leaks?

This board must be dead as a door nail since this thread was literally up when my last game died. Holy fuck, you ugys.

At least it's actually a fantasycraft thread.

I'm thinking up some grumpy dwarven caravan guards who will be an obstacle but not *necessarily* an opponent; the PCs have to talk, intimidate, sneak, or bluff their way past them. Or, you know, pick a fight and last until their employers come over and tell them to let the PCs in.

Is there a good NPC maker that includes equipment? IE, I want to be able to put armor on them and see it included in the defensive stats?