[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / random / 93 / biohzrd / hkacade / hkpnd / tct / utd / uy / yebalnia ]

/shousa/ - Motoko, Masamune and More

Increase the Floof!

Email
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
Archive
* = required field[▶Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webp,webm, mp4, mov, swf, pdf
Max filesize is16 MB.
Max image dimensions are15000 x15000.
You may upload5 per post.


Increase the Floof

File: b9e8e1f5b7cde9c⋯.jpg (158.77 KB,736x1000,92:125,7b838d3f23aa4092609392d6e5….jpg)

 No.1439

In order to get this sorted once and for all, just what the fuck is going on with the metaphysical/deep/philosophy parts of GITS?

I get that Motoko and 2501 merge to become a new entity but how does this become a spiritual thing?

____________________________
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1440

File: 0488a75e7fd5806⋯.png (99.96 KB,377x341,377:341,thonking noises.png)

If you’re talking about the manga, the mystical aspect is pretty explicit, it’s just buried under so much dialog that it’s hard to pinpoint on first reading, but, with a little knowledge of the sequel and of Orion, you can piece it out: during her near-death experience, Motoko meets 2501’s actual spirit, it’s (presumably) not a virtually-generated image, it’s an actual ESP thing, and since channelers are occasionally referred to in a serious context, it stands to reason that Motoko is some kind of channeler (at least in this instance).

It’s later explained that all that stuff works because there’s a psycho-electrical thingie called The Net which is basically God and connects everything since the beginning of time. Which of course causes a lot of confusion to a modern-day reader to whom «the net » just means « the internet ». But no, it’s actually God and by merging wth 2501 (who’s aware of it), Motoko essentially gained psychic powers, including the ability to manifest copies of herself, also with psychic powers, but with a messed-up memory. We know 2501 can copy herself because she's a program, but Motoko's copying process is presented as a mystical experience so it's almost certainly magical stuff.

And her goal, apparently, is now to help The Net grow, for no clear reason. It’s just suggested that stuff will « calcify » if she doesn’t make more psychic lifeforms.

Cosmic growth good, stagnation bad, yadda yadda, not really explained, just an opportunity for Shirow to point out functional similarities between all sorts of systems while jerking off his mythology boner, leading to some New Age stuff about being one with the cosmos and also a lesbian. Same type of thing that pops up in a lot of 90s scifi. The main bits of philosophy in this are «hey isn’t it funny how society and memories kind of behave like living things?» and « what if taoism was legit? »

Now Oshii on the other hand adds a bunch of other mythological components from other traditions (including the Bibble) and muddles it up by never presenting the supernatural stuff as 100% legit. As a result the focus is shifted away from cosmology, and placed onto existential topics, to create more of a psychological horror atmosphere, because we’re just never sure if all that mystical imagery is for real or if the characters are fucking up, and what exactly is at stake there, cause there’s no clear ontological foundation for the setting, and not enough characterization to be able to tell if something is amiss or goofed up after Motoko’s fusion, or to be able to tell how much it would matter. But there is a lot of questioning, so there’s no telling what should be taken at face value and what should be dismissed as an illusion.

As far as I can tell, the mystical stuff is probably not there for its own sake, otherwise it would be less ambiguous, it’s more about showing off the process through which an individual gains/loses faith. Like in a lot of Oshii movies.

If there’s a message there beyond « even in the future, people can still end up becoming religious », I haven’t found it. Because even though the mythological references are pretty strong, they don’t add up to a single clear thesis when taken into the broader context of the movie and Oshii’s works. There’s also stuff about love and maturity in there, and possibly about fiction in general, but again it’s so vague that you can come up with like nine contradictory interpretations of it.

Of course, it doesn’t help that the nitty-gritty of the script wasn’t written by Oshii himself, so I dunno how much of it comes down to an authorial intent to maintain doubt, and how much of it was just poor communication. And I haven’t read enough interviews to be able to sort it out. If you can quote him saying something definitive on this topic it'd be helpful

TL;DR: in the manga it’s explicitly magical shamanistic stuff, in the movie it’s left vague and communicated mostly through imagery and cultural references

also, nice tiddies on dat gremlin

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1478

File: 7172709d3f93cc3⋯.jpeg (153.57 KB,762x1200,127:200,1d4cb8e0e65a3c7f2c8ac804b….jpeg)

I honestly think that Shirow's reputation for philosophy and religious discussion is heavily over emphasised. It's certainly there, but it's not really the focus for the most part in his works; indeed, I'd argue it's not really there in a fair few of his stuff to a meaningful degree. Appleseed lacks a lot of the spiritualism aside from adding some worldbuilding here and there, and it's main focus; freedom versus safety, responsibility on an individual/national level or grander scheme, and the issues of delegating political power to technocratic entities is mostly over and done with by volume 3. Dominion doesn't really touch on it either, aside from a 'robots are people too' and some variation of 'pollution bad'. Black Magic also isn't really focused enough to have such considerations. There's some debate over the role of peoples in society and 'technology/magic isn't good or bad depends who's using it'. But not really present in any major manner.

Ghost in the Shell is the one everyone cites as being the techo-philosophical one, but again, while it does come up here and there it's mostly pretty simplistic and not really the focus until you get to the end, and honestly it feels pretty incongruous in a way when you consider the work as a whole. Shirow does do a good job in making 2501 and Motoko's conversation feel natural and not just an interruption.

Now Orion is an exception, but I don't think that's because Shirow wanted to really make it a theological treatise. It's more because he uses Buddhist relgiious principles essentially as the science fiction backing for how/why things work. It becomes a bit more important as the comic goes on, but a lot of it is essentially no more meaningful than someone in Star Trek going on about tachyons. Though it is far better put together. He also likes throwing shit in there, and I'm not sure if this is a translation flourish or accurate.

The big exception is GITS 2.0 but i

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1479

File: 97b9012855466b1⋯.png (111.87 KB,331x358,331:358,Seska Goes Boom.png)

>>1478

… but I haven't got round to rereading it yet to really look at how Shirow approaches things.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1482

>>1478

>Shirow does do a good job in making 2501 and Motoko's conversation feel natural and not just an interruption.

It's achieved by making Motoko literally unable to escape 2501 so it's not entirely natural, but that situation doesn't come out of nowhere and it's not presented as massively important; which is a bit of a missed opportunity but, as you said, it's not the main focus.

In many ways it feels like Shirow going "oh man I can't wait till Orion gets published check out these cool concepts I read about!" rather than trying to deliver some wisdom (as in, knowledge that matters)

A more focused and rigorous writer would probably have found a way to structure the story around a paranormal mystery for S9 to uncover (perhaps about the channeling agency and its possible involvement in the Gavel situation) and would have made 2501's revelations about cosmology and spirituality a lot more plot-relevant.

Because, as it stands, 2501's usefulness stops when she reveals that S6 and the foreign affairs ministry are doing illegal shit. Everything else would have to be rooted in much more tangible concerns in order to generate drama.

And I guess that's sort of what Shirow was going for with 2.0 but it's such a confusing mess that it might as well be about farming ostriches.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1484

>>1478

Also I think the reason why he gets that reputation is because he actually uses technical/academic terms when he brings up big ideas. Not specifically philosophical terms or ideas, of course, he can't even be assed to define "ghost", and most of his assertions are framed in a fictional context that's wildly different from actual reality. But since it's technical and abstract, it still feels like philosophy.

When you look at, say, Trigun (the series), you can also see philosophical debates in it (about morality in this case) but since none of the characters bring up moral terminology, it doesn't register as "philosophy" in most viewers' mind.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1485

>>1482

The way to do it would be to connect 2501 to various crimes outside of the chapters she appears in and to have them related to some wider issues; a burst of cult activity, feelings of dread or perhaps a religious sublime sensation amongst certain hackers. But perhaps that's a bit too cliche. It also would change what the comic was really about and instead frame it around this spiritual context which honestly GITS would suffer for. It is, at the heart of things, an episodic take on things and to have it focused on a single specific thing throughout would be to the detrement of the other stories we see in it.

>>1484

That's quite a good point; he does have a habit of using an academic term when he could have phrased a lot of his stuff in more mundane language. While he obviously is well read, the more I revist it, I also get the feeling that he was making things a bit technical and complex for their own sake. Not necessarily in a bad way, I think he was just having fun with it. However when this is filtered through limited access to works of the time, an english translation which means we ultimately aren't getting the exact stuff (though I know that these translations are viewed as very good) and there's some obfuscation there, especially back in the 90s when these comics first got Western publishing in markets that really hadn't seen such things before.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1488

>>1485

That's the issue, yeah, the idea that the Tao is real and there are wizards working for the government is such a massively important concept that it sort of makes everything else seem trivial by comparison. And Shirow just sort of drops it there like it's no big deal.

Same as how the first chapter introduced the idea of brainwashed war orphans in the government and then did nothing with it.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1490

>>1488

That at least works well in a contained story; it shows that there's been a war large enough to have a whole plant of orphans, it shows the inhumanity of many in the setting (forcing young boys to program and have cybernetic implants after losng their parents to war), displays the tech of the setting and shows how Section 9 operates, as well as the environment in which they exist, where the government is so divided that one part is trying to stop this, having had no idea it was a government facility and the other is taking advantage and mistreating/killing children for fun and profit. We don't need to focus on it as it's just another day in post WW4 Japan, and we see other stuff in the same vein throughout the comic; the ghost dubbed young girls, brainwashed dustbin men, etc.

That's, as you say, not quite on the same level as there being real life spiritual energy and the government frequently uses priestesses and wizards to address world threatening psychic/spiritual threats. You can't really have that exist, get in the spotlight, and then go on to do a relatively normal cyberpunk police story without it feeling out of place.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1492

>>1490

Works well in a contained story AND it also helps set the stage for the rest of the comic i meant.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1497

File: 93c5cbad981631e⋯.png (1.08 MB,1008x842,504:421,HACKING IN PROGRESS.png)

>>1490

we deus ex now

ALL BANKS……………….HACKED

ILLUMINATI……………….HACKED

AREA 51……………………HACKED

STATUE OF LIBERTY….HACKED

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1499

File: 0bef58e58700ef5⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image,15.61 KB,400x400,1:1,48934_100000516654285_2109….jpg)

Oshii tried to focus on the spiritual mystery stuff, but he wasn't the right man for the job.

THIS is the right man for the job

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1500

File: 3457acea9f09670⋯.jpg (19.82 KB,204x196,51:49,Motoko Kusanagi Cheertoko.jpg)

>>1497

Number 1. That's terror.

Number 2. That's terror.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1501

>>1499

But in a Neil Breen film Neil Breen is always the hero.

What would he do, put on a wig and pretend to be Motoko? Or would he serve as Motoko's spirit guide as he tries to defeat 2501 and bring about a new age of humanity, guiding Japan to a breentopia?

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1503

>>1501

>Or would he serve as Motoko's spirit guide as he tries to defeat 2501 and bring about a new age of humanity, guiding Japan to a breentopia?

Yes, her ghost, whispering to her.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1504

File: 246872cacd1cbe2⋯.png (42.08 KB,171x185,171:185,Motoko Blank.png)

>>1503

Oh fuq.

Of course the film would be focued on Breen and all the things that he's doing while ranting at Motoko about how he needs to reform and take down the new world order and replace it with the new breen order.

It also makes sense now about how Motoko can be so good at so many things; she's got Breen, the world's greatest hacker and secret agent, and the messiah on her side.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1505

Or perhaps he could be Aramabreen?

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1508

>>1505

If Motoko is perceiving Aramaki acting and speaking like Breen no wonder she's a bit unhinged.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1509

File: e208cddaf74cd60⋯.jpg (114.68 KB,1280x720,16:9,ooga.jpg)

>>1508

he does have a bit of an apeface

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1510

File: 287757dd7ca9bac⋯.jpg (54.29 KB,567x442,567:442,snow-monkey-group.jpg)

>>1509

Aramaki is more like one of them Japanese monkeys that hangs out in hot springs though.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1511

>>1510

I don't wana see Aramaki hang out in the hot springs even if he's with his soviet girlfriend!

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1512

File: 4ab88c9e0b0589d⋯.png (913.59 KB,928x592,58:37,dbde9n0-df452f99-a7f0-4a88….png)

>>1511

A little bit of old man skin is worth it to see that Com Bloc cyborg stripped down.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1513

>>1512

Where does she fit into things? Both in terms of the thread subject and more importantly, the Breenverse?

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1534

File: 4dc184fed4842f9⋯.png (1.25 MB,1454x850,727:425,skost.png)

>>1499

Skost in the Sack

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1535

>>1534

Spook in the Ute.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1536

>>1535

Skelly in the telly.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

 No.1722

>>1513

Lingering threats of the Cold War and hangups over sexuality?

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.



[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Random][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / random / 93 / biohzrd / hkacade / hkpnd / tct / utd / uy / yebalnia ]