No.11735
I'm currently studying to become a welder and it's really mindkilling interracting with actually religious people. I share a welding machine at the course with a sunni and it's actually mindblowing how many times he tries to motte and bailey me and is suprised how I don't fall for it.
It's been months and he hasn't said a single thing which I feel is actually honest and the funny thing is from a value standpoint there's no difference between him and a christian conservative so far except that he doesn't eat pig.
I think it's a good thing that unironical religion is dying and that all his children are getting swallowed up by western culture.
____________________________
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No.11736
the joke is that you are more mindkilled than that guy
can you share some of the motte and bailey arguments he uses
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No.11741
Sure.
>says that the christian kuffar are wrong and that they should realize that because there are more muslims in the world and they can't be wrong
>I say that there are actually more christians and maybe he should think about it
>he says he's entitled to his own belief and so is everyone
>keeps complaining about how he is treated here, says back in his country religious minorities don't face this type of discrimination
>I say that can't possibly be true but don't follow up
>one day passes, some fun interraction between him and someone from bangladesh who is a shia
>"ha, back in my country we beat them like dogs"
>what about that whole discourse yesterday
>ohh no I mean discrimination in an opportunity sense, *leaves*
>one day I join in while he was talking to some animal rights vegan nut and I actually make a point on how they are talking about different notions of consciousness and that will get them nowhere, enumerate definitions till they agree on one and then add in how many ways we are similar to animals and for how many mental activities you don't actually need consciousness
>he looks at me wierd, says human are not animals and that I'm crazy and that humans have actual control
>don't add anything since I'm not interested
>we get coffee later that day
>see 2 young kinda lewd emo grils with skimpy clothing
>he notices my lust (this sounds like autism but I got horny, one of them looked like my highschool gf)
>start rambling on how women should be covered because men have animalistic desires
>say I can control myself since I'm not actually an animal and smile
>he says something and arab and that I'm cheeky
>says I'll suffer in hell for drinking beer
>say I don't actually believe in hell how would that make me change my behaviour so I don't sin according to his belief and how can that even be a sin for me
>says it's actually bad and I should stop doing
>say I'm informed and that I even was an alcoholic at some point in my life, explain to him what a chesterson fence is and why he is kinda actually right
( I was alcoholic while on ssri )
>well the profet said this and he was never wrong and that bringing up the image of hell is meant to help people
>ok
This was just the last week.
He's extremly polemic for that matter.
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No.11746
Lol, that's pretty funny. 2-digit IQ normies are a riot. Thanks for sharing.
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No.11747
>>11746
>contrived rationalisations of bizarre beliefs are a low IQ thing
I guarantee you have several living in your head right now.
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No.11748
>>11747
>dat 'hollier than you' attitude
of course he has, and so do I but not on that level and intensity and I don't know about him but I will change my mind when presented with appropriate evidence and charity in argumentation that people like him receive on a daily basis.
When he heard I'm an atheist he basically assumed I'm a fucking immature retard and a degenerate (I know I'm setting up a nice retort for you but those some of the words he used). "What you don't believe in anything ? HAHAHHA What is wrong with you". Imagine how much better I would have felt if I was really true to my right wing inclinations and I would have just scoffed, mentally noted he is a fucking mudslim or just fucking said it like other people in the course.
I don't even consider myself better than him in all ways. Evolutionary he's winning since he has like 7 kids and I'm anti-natalistic in thought.
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No.11749
>>11748
Dude, "evolutionary victory" is basically nonsense.
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No.11750
>>11748
All of that is easily compatible with intelligence. It's even compatible with a fair amount of rationality, depending on how extreme the environment that shaped those ideas was.
That doesn't invalidate anything you said, of course. But >>11746 is really bad. If your takeaway from the whole rationality thing is "boy, I sure am glad I'm rational, unlike those 2-digit IQ normies" than you've gone off the rails completely.
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No.11751
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No.11752
>>11750
> If your takeaway from the whole rationality thing is "boy, I sure am glad I'm rational, unlike those 2-digit IQ normies" than you've gone off the rails completely.
Above all this is an imageboard, this is imageboard behaviour.
"2-digit IQ normies are a riot."
Everyone though this at some point in their life even me even though I assume I'm somehow 3 digit even though I've never taken an iq test in my life. Also there are plenty of 3 digit really religious people. I don't feel like that post was really bad.
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No.11753
>>11751
Because evolution is not a game you can win.
Can I say that you have lost in the game of death simply because you are still alive? Can I say that you have lost in the game of being a cat simply for being a human? Do these make any sense at all? Then why do you believe that "evolutionary victory" exists?
If praying mantises could develop any civilization I'm sure that's what they would have used to trick their males into voluntarily becoming meals..together with religion and romantic movies. Yeah, "By letting a girl eat you alive you are in fact winning in the game of evolution which is more important than life!" would have been a thing..sigh.
That's fucking similar to ISIS.
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No.11754
>>11751
Why evolution is inherently anti-male and why all men should go their own way
Many people have rightfully pointed out that Western societies are misandric. However many haven't figured out the actual source of this phenomenon. Misandry isn't something women or the Freemasonry invented in the 19th Century. Instead it is something as ancient as sexual reproduction itself. Nor is misandry restricted to any particular culture or cluster of cultures or even particular species. Male animals have been suffering from the misandry of nature for a long time long before the emergence of humanity. We should always keep the plight of male praying mantises in our mind for their pointless sufferings so that we can avoid their fate.
Evolution is an interesting process. It heavily selects for traits that favors reproduction to traits benefitial to the well-being of an organism but harmful to reproduction. Hence evolution tends to cause organisms that attempt to reproduce at any cost including sacrificing their own lives to be much more common than organisms that prefer their own well-being to reproduction. Since almost all organisms eventually die it causes the world to be filled with crazy breeders, those that breed at any cost. Many organisms die after reproducing once and can in fact live longer had they chosen not to have sex. Yet they still have sex and die anyway. Some particularly absurd animals such as male praying mantises even get themselves eaten by their partners voluntarily. Evolution selects for these highly pathological, almost ISIS-like traits while saner animals go extinct. The problem of evolution favoring reproduction at any cost is as ancient as evolution and the history of organisms itself. Even asexual reproduction is as bad as sexual reproduction. When sexuality evolved, sexual reproduction causes infertile organisms to be the most disposable, followed by fertile males and finally fertile females. This is why the history of misandry is as old as the history of male animals.
Since the true cause of misandry is known we can easily deduce that there is no way to curb it other than standing up to evolution itself through transhumanism or cloning. Sexual reproduction of any kind must be avoided. Sex bots and legal porn are always good precisely because they can remove sexual urges. Sexual urges are what your genes use to try to trick you to reproduce. Hence don't let them overcome you. Unlike male praying mantises you are a human and hence can overcome the power of evolution. It's time to end this problem once and for all by GTOW!
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No.11755
>11753
>Can I say that you have lost in the game of death simply because you are still alive?
That is a wierd phrasing but I guess you can say if you're coming from a nihilistic perspective. It's also nothing similar to how I put it.
It all comes down to the notion that "a sexual organism wins evolutionary if he achieves maximum sexual fitness" and if you agree with that.
>Can I say that you have lost in the game of being a cat simply for being a human?
Can I say that you have lost the game of good analogies by making shitty analogies?
>If praying mantises could develop any civilization
ok
>I'm sure that's what they would have used to trick their males into voluntarily becoming meals..together with religion and romantic movies. Yeah, "By letting a girl eat you alive you are in fact winning in the game of evolution which is more important than life!" would have been a thing..sigh.
Just imagine those polyamorous situatioins. Do lesbins couples eat eachother ? Wouldn't the species die after males start being gay ? Would females still be opressed for most of their history ? Can trans-praying mantises actually change sexual role ?
>That's fucking similar to ISIS.
I'm more intrigued why you think ( I assume ) life is so important and how do you define it.
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No.11757
>>11741
How is any of that motte and baileying you?
I also feel you haven't properly described how reactions or surprise to your reactions.
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No.11759
>>11747
>>11750
You guys, come live up on the meta-contrarian level with me.
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No.11760
>>11757
he's essentially proposing an aggresive idea idea and when confronted he's falling back to a more acceptable one
>I also feel you haven't properly described how reactions or surprise to your reactions.
I don't undertand. Tell me where you would want to expand if you're interested.
>>11754
Ok I've read that.
>sex bots and legal porn
>legal porn
We can literally solve all those problems by enslaving women. Who wrote that shit ?
What is GTOW ?
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No.11762
>>11748
>>11753
>Because evolution is not a game you can win.
He obviously didn't mean literally evolutionarily. He meant that he thinks one day he's going to be a minority and muslims are going to be a majority.
If every muslim has 3.5 kids and every atheist has 0 kids then it's obvious what society will look like in 1 or 2 generations.
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No.11764
>>11760
The more Muslims and humans are not animals arguments were just hypocrisy, the religious minorities argument was moving the goalposts and I don't even know what the alcohol thing was besides him being an idiot.
>I don't undertand. Tell me where you would want to expand if you're interested.
How you could tell he was taken aback by you not falling for the initial lie or calling him out on hypocrisy.
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No.11768
>>11762
Agreed. That's a much more legit concern than the "evolutionary success" woo.
>>11760
I wrote it. This is the post I made on r/MGTOW.
You seem to believe that enslaving all women can solve this problem. Well, in this case the problem is alleviated. However I doubt that it is feasible. Evolution destroys male unity and pushes men to kill each other for stupid reasons, especially sex.
A much more feasible approach is deliberate lowering of the gender ratio to 1:5 or even 1:100 by cloning women.
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No.11769
>>11754
>Many organisms die after reproducing once and can in fact live longer had they chosen not to have sex.
Stars can in fact live longer should they choose not to supernova.
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No.11770
>>11769
Stars can not control whether they become supernovae because they aren't conscious. Humans can.
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No.11771
>>11770
Many organisms have no control whether they have sex. Humans uniquely can.
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No.11772
>>11771
Yes. I guess it is an "evolutionary bug" but at the same time it is a feature to selfish people.
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No.11773
>>11771
>uniquely
Even male praying mantises sometimes choose to avoid mating with hungry females, and any species with courtship rituals has a lot of choice involved. What are you talking about?
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No.11774
>>11773
>sometimes choose
No. They don't.
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No.11775
>>11774
Are you using some sort of zany definition of "choose" without explaining? If so, just say so.
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No.11776
>>11775
That depends, do you consider >>11770 a zany definition of "choose"? Same answer.
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No.11777
>>11776
So is your position that it's not a Real Choice unless there's consciousness? That seems really arbitrary.
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No.11778
>>11777
So your position is a star going supernova is making a Real Choice? That seems really retarded.
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No.11779
>>11778
No, because there is no significantpossibility of something else happening, and because it's not the output of a computational process.
A praying mantis may or may not end up mating, depending on the output of a computation. That's choice.
You could predict it in advance if you know all the initial details exactly, but that seems to be true of everything that's considered to be choice.
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No.11780
>>11779
>No, because there is no significantpossibility of something else happening,
Yes there is. It could not nova yet.
>and because it's not the output of a computational process.
What's the difference between the computations in a mantis's biology and a star's physics?
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No.11781
>>11780
Stars don't just choose not to explode, for a start.
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No.11782
>>11781
Mantises don't just choose not to mate.
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No.11783
>>11768
>A much more feasible approach is deliberate lowering of the gender ratio to 1:5 or even 1:100 by cloning women.
I can vision what you are saying but I'm having a hard time believing men are killing eachother only because of sex.
For starters what about power ?
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No.11784
>>11782
They do so, according to >>11773 at least. Unless you claim he is lying or mistaken, which I concede is a possibillity
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No.11785
>>11784
He's using your zany definition of "choose" from >>11779
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No.11829
there's literally nothing wrong with being religious
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No.11832
>>11746
Op here,
I have a feeling that people who don't have this sentiment don't have to interract with individuals they actually consider part of this group.
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No.11833
>>11832
It's more that I don't think you need to actually be below 50th percentile to have those kinds of beliefs, and that it's dangerous to conflate irrationality with low intelligence to that degree.
I've met someone with a Phd in physics who was religious to the point of questioning evolution, in a 50%-atheist country in western Europe, not even the US.
If irrational beliefs implied low intelligence, then high intelligence would imply rational beliefs. But it doesn't, and it's dangerous to think it does.
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No.11836
>>11829
Except for, y'know, being wrong.
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No.11839
>>11833
At what point does irrational thought become stupidity and viceversa. You're too charitable.
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No.11840
>>11839
They're correlated, but distinct. The way I'm using the words, rationality is about accurate epistemics, and intelligence is about the elusive g factor or something in that direction. You can have the second without the first, especially if your environment pressures you to adopt irrational beliefs.
I don't know whether this particular person is intelligent, but there are intelligent people with similarly irrational beliefs, by the meaning of intelligence implied by the word "IQ".
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No.11841
>>11836
gonna need proof there pal, as in a specific citation that objectively and unquestionably demonstrates your truth claim. thanks
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No.11844
>>11841
>show me 100% proof of a negative
Irrationalists get the fuck off my board
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No.11845
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No.11847
>>11845
Contains a generalisable argument for believing false things because they are false, but of course it does, this is the philosophical argument equivalent of a joke mathematical "proof" that 1 = 0.
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No.11954
>>11844
[out-group with """negative""" trait] please stay out!
woah get a load of this dogmatic religious zealot, we got a Sequences Thumper ova heah
there's literally nothing wrong with "irrationality", read from counter-enlightenment thinkers mx. smoothbrain
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No.11956
>>11954
(In an extremely big brain voice) Bad things are actually good
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No.11958
>>11956
*folds brain* things i dont like or understand are bad!!
Read Hamann's Metacritique, you're embarrassing yourself
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No.11959
>>11958
Can you elaborate? A quick two-sentence summary? Instrumental rationality means "making good decisions".
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No.11975
>>11845
Great meme, thanks.
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