/pone/ - My Little Pony★

>Only in 2013 did they appear to reframe it with the "Nightmare Forces" influence.in the "Nightmare Rarity" comic arc. Reframing a Mind Rape as a Demonic Possession, or at least implying this.

The comics ran with Faust's original idea to reveal that Luna had been corrupted by a dark power. It was the show that deviated from the original plan after Faust left choosing instead to take the storybook opening literally wherein Luna became Nightmare Moon purely out of her own jealousy. Really, that made more sense just because Nightmare Moon did seem to be significantly more powerful than regular Luna. She also had a much wider variety of themed tricks at her disposal.

When you think about it, the later show canon opens gigantic plot holes in the pilot. If Luna was not channeling some malevolent magical entity, then how was she able to dethrone Celestia who was both expecting her and had all of Equestria at her disposal? More importantly, how would the Elements of Harmony blast the evil out of her if the evil had not been foreign to her? If they had been capable of just making the person who gets hit with the rainbow nice, then Discord would not have been trapped in stone in the first place.

>>293993 (OP)

I can't care for your horrible paragraphing, because your syntax and diction is unreadable. Fix your word order, you fucking chink chonk redditor.

>>293994

>how was she able to dethrone Celestia who was both expecting her and had all of Equestria at her disposal

Because Celestia is absolutely useless in a fight. Remember how she got her ass handed to her in a 1 on 1 fight with Chrysalis?

>how would the Elements of Harmony blast the evil out of her if the evil had not been foreign to her

The show has shown mindcontrolling magic to be fairly common and having shockingly little stigma attached to it. Both Twilight and Glimmer have been caught mindrapping groups of other ponies over petty shit, and both have gotten off with nothing but a stern talking to over it. Not even their victims seemed to care.

That such a thing could be used to simply rewrite luna's mind to make her emotionally balanced doesn't seem like that much of a stretch.

As for how the elements acted on discord, he is an interdimensional being from a realm of raw chaos with unimaginable power. Why would you expect the elements to affect him the same way they do ponies. For that matter, why would you assume the elements can only do one thing and not be used for a variety of different things by a skilled wielder?

>>294009

>Because Celestia is absolutely useless in a fight.

Let's not forget that she personally defeated Luna before. Also, Luna had been an element bearer at the time. If Celestia is weak, then Luna is even weaker.

>As for how the elements acted on discord

Then let's talk about what they did to Luna. One time they send her to the moon for a thousand years. The next time they make her nice. The only difference is…

>For that matter, why would you assume the elements can only do one thing and not be used for a variety of different things by a skilled wielder?

….the user. Celestia had used the elements before on more than one occasion. It is safe to assume that she understood how to use them properly when she fought with Nightmare Moon. Twilight and company, on the other hand, had never used them before and had no idea what they were doing. They were even surprised by the outcome. Why should a bunch of novices achieve a better result by flailing than an experienced operator who knew what she was doing?

>>294014

>And why would you assume Celestia is an expert with the elements?

Because she has used them at least three times. Apart from Discord and Nightmare Moon there was also Sombra.

>Hell, celestia left the elements behind in the old ruins instead of putting them somewhere safe after her battle with NMM.

Were those stones ever really the Elements? They did not seem to be necessary at all to their being summoned. What is interesting is that Nightmare Moon seemed to think that the stone elements were necessary. Now what does that tell you? It tells you that Luna did not have a good understanding of how they worked… which rather undermines my previous point about her repeated use of them being evidence of her understanding their function. That is unless Nightmare Moon's consciousness was not the same as Luna's. That would explain why Nightmare Moon was able to speak like everyone else while Luna reverted to her archaic patois. Well, that was a tangent.

In any case, the fact that Celestia did leave the stone elements behind when she moved the capitol to Canterlot tells us that she knew that the stones were unnecessary. That would mean that she did in fact understand how they work. That is further evidenced by the fact that she sent Twilight to Ponyville specifically to make friends. Celestia knew that it was friendship, not the stones, that made the elements function.

>And why is Twilight and co better at the elements than Celestia and Luna?

Twilight and friends did not use them better. They just got a better result. They were not expecting the elements to make Nightmare Moon good. All they were trying to do was defeat Nightmare Moon. They did not even know that she was Luna, although how Twilight managed to miss that detail in her book I don't know. Bad writing, Lauren.

>And you still didn't explain why the users intent doesn't matter.

You are the one who is making that mistake. We can assume that Celestia would have prefered to fix her sister instead of leaving her on the moon. We know that Twilight and friends had no particular interest in helping Luna, since they were unaware of who she was.

>Celestia has well documented fondness of simply banishing or imprisoning her foes.

Ah, the malevolent Celestia theory! Never mind that her machinations have resulted in a thousand-year paradise. Forget that her enemies have all been cackling supervillain caricatures.

>>294016

No you moron. Stop making shit up.

There is NOWHERE any information on the elements being used against Sombra.

That celestia could just pick up all 6 and use them against Luna who should have been bound to at least 3 of them, shows the elements weren't actually bound to luna and celestia the way they where to the mane 6. Combined with them being bound to the mane 6 AFTER the old rocks where destroyed by the someone who had wielded them before, shows that this is NOT something they had done before.

We don't need selfcrontradicting bullshit and made up fanon to explain this.

Seing as Celestia abandoned a lot of other valuable crap in that castle after the battle with NMM, like that inspiration manifestation book, her personal diary and everything else in the castle, she most likely abandoned it with everything inside, after the fight. Including the elements. This is why Twilight had to go to the castle to get them. Did you some how miss the first two episodes or something?

You want a fanon theory to explain it? Try CELESTIA WAS USING LUNA'S ELEMENTS TO BLAST NMM, THUS SHE COULD NOT HAVE USED THE ELEMENTS THE SAME WAY THE MANE 6 DO.

The mane 6 are all bound to their own element each, and none of them can use one of the others elements. Hell, for all we know, celestia might not even have realised that the elements where able to "fix" luna, and thus instead of opted for banishment.

>Twilight and friends did not use them better. They just got a better result

So they're not better at using them, they just get better results every fucking time they use them? Do you even read your own arguments? Thats like saying Person A is a better marksman than Person B, despite person B consistently hitting his targets better than person A. You could almost make a case for the dictionary definition of "being better at something" means consistently getting better results…

Are you high on something or are you just utterly fucking retarded?

>>294019

>Stop making shit up.

You mean shit like the whole "Tyrant Celestia" theory? You are losing the argument, and you are getting mad about it. Relax.

>That celestia could just pick up all 6 and use them against Luna who should have been bound to at least 3 of them

That shows that they stopped being bound to Luna leaving Celestia as their sole wielder. That only makes sense if Nightmare Moon is not Luna, which gets back to the original point..

>We don't need selfcrontradicting bullshit and made up fanon to explain this.

Post-Faust show canon is self-contradicting. The explainations that they put into Seasons Four and Five break the pilot. Your efforts to hammer that square peg into a round hole demonstrate that.

>Seing as Celestia abandoned a lot of other valuable crap in that castle after the battle with NMM, like that inspiration manifestation book, her personal diary and everything else in the castle, she most likely abandoned it with everything inside, after the fight.

That right there is the case in point. Celestia had a thousand years to move the capitol. It makes no sense that she would leave a bunch of super spells and personal effects in a ruin.

>Hell, for all we know, celestia might not even have realised that the elements where able to "fix" luna, and thus instead of opted for banishment.

We do know for certain that Twilight and her friends did not know that the elements could fix Luna.

>Thats like saying Person A is a better marksman than Person B, despite person B consistently hitting his targets better than person A.

Marksmanship is a skill. Whatever the reason may be that the Six get better results with the Elements of Harmony than Celestia did, we know that it is not relative skill. The Six had no prior experience with them and no idea what the outcome of their use would be. They just took a shot in the dark and got lucky. Celestia, on the other hand, knew exactly how they worked. If you notice she was not even the slightest bit surprised to find a weakened and repentent Luna on the ground after the rainbow niggerbeam hit Nightmare Moon. She had expected it.

>>293994

My guess is that NMM was practicing battle magic for a while before issuing the challenge. His much prep did Celestia have?

>>294009

Who is to say NMM was unbalanced? Good girls have righteous rages against villains and we don't call them unbalanced. It is only "unbalanced" if you think equal peace with Celestia is an option.

>>294011

Celestia had a thousand years to study the elements and learn to use them for mind control. All to herself. Back when the sisters shared them there would be no time or incentive for personal study.

Celestia viewed Luna as naturally submissive and obedient until she rebelled so she didn't think to explore this until after. Probably perfecting it on her subjects.

As for how Twily managed it: Celestia was grooming her for years as her apprentice. She probably cast all kinds of secret spells on her so that when she uses the elements this would happen.

As for why she did: personal risk. Why risk death yourself if a unicorn can beat your enemy for you?

>>294014

I need more stone ponies theory…

Another idea occurred to me. What if the effect of EoH is to harmonize the user with the target by moving them toward each other in power and personality?

This would explain how NMM grew in power. She absorbed Celestina's magic. This is why Celestia could not beat her next time.

This is also why a bunch if weak ponies had to use them. It lowers NMM's power level and moves her personality toward the Mane 6's.

This also explains how the Mane 6 grew in power. They absorbed some of NMM's power and emotions through harmonization. This is how Twilight could become a princess and how Rarity can go Nightmare. How Fluttershy can go Flutter bat. Why Dashy got her rainboom. Why AJ is strongest. Why Pinkie is a reality warmer losing her mind at tea parties.

>>294016

Celestia could not help her sister because using the EoH on NMM would only impart more of Celestia inside her. That would make her more power hungry.

NMM post-moon is more evil than NMM pre-moon because she absorbed Celestina's evil.

Twily and co using it neutered (fixed indeed) Luna by imparting their subservience (they all worship Celestia) into NMM. Only they could do that because the EoH "harmonize" user with target and make them more alike each other.

>>294021

I see no evidence we should assume elements were bound to either sister. NMM is the real Luna. EPs 3+ is lobotomied Luna.

Tyrant Celestia is a solid theory. It isn't made up. It is based on her millenium-jailing then contract mind raping someone who wants her job.

I see it wrong to say what the Mane 6 did was "fixing" her.

The word is multifaceted. Do you mean repair? Hurt? Neuter? I bekieve the latter two is what happened.

If the elements could just re-write someones personality then why didn't they work on Discord the three times they were used on him?

He was imprisoned for far longer than Nightmare Moon, and in her timeline he isn't around despite the fact that he would still likely escape. So it's unlikely he's stronger than Nightmare Moon.

>>294027

Discord's power is difficult to pin down. He can turn reality into a Brian Cosgrove cartoon, but somehow he is Tirek's bitch and gets cockblocked by a ward that the changeling queen can create. If we throw out "Keep Calm and Flutter On" and everything after it, Discord would seem to be the most powerful creature in their universe. His only weakness is that he cannot help but make a game out of everything he does which leaves him vulnerable to things that a sane person would see coming from a mile away.

>>293994

>More importantly, how would the Elements of Harmony blast the evil out of her if the evil had not been foreign to her?

What if the EoH just did something like the "make you nice by flashing nice memories across your brain" thing that Twilight did in RoH?

>>294040

>Implying Twilight didn't just rewrite her friends memories based on her own memories of them and that this is why they all became increasingly bowdlerised season 2 onwards, as twilight missed a lot of the subtle details and hidden depths of each of them in the process.

>>294040

So the Elements of Harmony are like that weird therapy in Clockwork Orange?

>>294077

You know exactly why we haven't seen it since, those designs are awful.

>>294076

Tireks first defeat was before Discord was turned into a lawn ornament, so the princess wouldn't have had the elements yet at the time they beat him. They only got the elements for beating discord after all.

Second time tirek was beaten, the elements had been returned to the tree and it was all that godawful friendship power the show promptly forget about after tirek was beaten and has never come up again. As >>294077 explained.

So Tirek was never actually shot with the rainbow laser.

>>294079

Did they actually expect to sell toys that look like that? Even little girls have standards.

>>294027

Rewrites may work better against ponies than dragonequii.

He was imprisoned longer because BOTH sisters teamed up to jail him. NMM was jailed at half power and she only got free a season earlier. Discord is clearly stronger.

>>294041

Fuck I guess this makes Twily a double Zatana.

>>294076

Centaur may be immune to rewrites lime draconeqi

>>294083

Or the. Nice details catch.

>>294092

>Even little girls have standards

Faust what are you doing on our board?

>>294317

MLP has proven time from time cynicism wins

>>294333

Hey we are not cynics. We just know that nothing is ever going to be good again.

>>294334

FiM has had a moral quandary from the outset. This is why Celestia is only logical villain for series finale as she reveals her Day Breaker true self once people rebel.

>>295372

Maybe three years ago. Now Twilight is the only logical big bad for the series finale.

That can work but only if that means Celestia/Daybreaker is midboss. Maybe going Nightmare Twilight is the only way Twily can match powers with her? Twilight resembles Dusk implies someone who walks the line before day becomes night…

Meaning once she goes through her dark phase and is redeemed she should change her name to Dawn Sparkle. Like Mrs. Cake.

>>295780

It would be poetic if, in the premier of the last season, Starlight Glimmer and the rest of the Six bannish Twilight when she goes nuts with the dark magic force that turns out once affected Luna. Or so they think. In the finale, Twilight escapes and traps them all forcing Celestia herself to go on an epic quest to rescue Starlight Glimmer and the Five. The series bookends with Celestia using a rainbow princess niggerbeam on Twilight after recovering the Elements of Harmony from the tree in the Everfree Forest. Now, that would be an appropriate series finale.

>>295784

Celestia cannot be redeemed. Series should end with Luna trapping her in sun.

>>295786

A sad ending? What show do you think this is?

>>295787

That is a safe ending not a sad one. It is the only redemption Celestia can have. She can create life and her destructive "worlds revolve around me" attitude final have a place.

>>295787

It doesn't have to be sad, just follow it up with a scene set 1000 years in the future when Luna is sending her price student off to find the elements of harmony in preparation for the return of Celestia. Cut to credits, the end.

Even a 6 year old would understand the concept of a repeating cycle with the roles reversed.

>>295803

Maybe, but that sounds like a bad Dr. Who episode

>>295803

Or… Luna actually has empathy and instead of being vengeful volunteers to lock herself in the sin with Celestia to keep her in check and so she won't have to be alone.

It should actually be Twi's sister in law mentoring someone now.

Yandere Tei: I thought I was your lil sis… Who is this you are babysittng instead?