/pnd/ - Politics, News, Debate

>>299585

Homer, knowing of these people, later included a

mention of them in his Odyssey, yet the events which that epic is based upon are from

a much earlier period (the Trojan War ended around 1185 B.C.), and placing the Homer, knowing of these people, later included a

mention of them in his Odyssey, yet the events which that epic is based upon are from

a much earlier period (the Trojan War ended around 1185 B.C.), and placing the Homer, knowing of these people, later included a

mention of them in his Odyssey, yet the events which that epic is based upon are from

a much earlier period (the Trojan War ended around 1185 B.C.), and placing the Kimmerians in that era, as the Tragic poets also do, is anachronistic, and an error on

Homer’s part which later writers followed.

Subsequent waves of nomadic tribes from Asia became familiar to the Greeks,

and these were generally called by the name Scythians. Herodotus tells us that Sakae

is the name which the Persians “ give to all Scythians ”, yet later the Greeks retain the

name Sakae, also often written Sakans by English translators, for only some of the

Scythians, and distinguish others by names such as Massagetae, Arimaspi, Däae, Asii,

Tocharians, Sacarauli, et al. (cf. Herodotus, The Histories, 4:11, 48; 7:64; Diodorus

Siculus, Library of History, 2.43.1-5; Strabo, Geography, 7.3.9 and 11.8.2). While

Herodotus and later writers distinguished Kimmerians and Scythians (but Homer never

mentioned either Scythians or Sakae), note that they all wrote long after the Greeks

became acquainted with the Kimmerians, and after the Persians came to power in the

east, the Assyrians and their Akkadian language having faded into obscurity.

Yet the Persians themselves did not distinguish the Kimmerians from the

Scythians, for in the multi-lingual inscriptions which they left to posterity, it is evident

that these peoples were one and the same. For instance, in an Akkadian inscription of

the Persian king Xerxes, there are mentioned “ the Amyrgian Cimmerians ” and “ the

Cimmerians (wearing) pointed caps ”. A note accompanying the translation of this

inscription which appears in Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament,

edited by James B. Pritchard, Princeton University Press [hereinafter ANET], p. 316,

tells us that in the Persian and Elamite versions of this same text these “ Cimmerians ”

are called “ Sakans ”. The Akkadian language was the lingua franca of the Near East

during the earlier Assyrian and Babylonian empires (ANET, pp. 103, 198), before it was

supplanted by Aramaic in the time of the Persian empire. Surely the Greeks of Homer’s

time must have been familiar with it. The obvious conclusion here is that Kimmerian is

from the Akkadian word for those people whom the Persians called Sakae, and whom

the Greeks called Scythians, and that all of these names identify the same group of

people, although they had divided into various sub-tribes. The first of these people to

come into Europe, in Assyrian times, the Greeks called by the Akkadian name. Later, in

Persian times, the Greeks called subsequent waves of these people (or perhaps even

descendants of those first tribes) – as well as those who remained in Asia – by the

Persian name Sakae, or by the name Scythian. The Greeks may have learned the

name Scythian from the people themselves, since one possible etymology for the word,

from the Hebrew word succoth or tent, is quite plausible and well describes the

Scythian mode of life, while also being consistent with classical accounts of Scythian

origins. This would also explain how the word Scythian appears in a fragment which is

attributed to Hesiod, who was regarded by later Greeks to have been a contemporary

of Homer. Yet whether the work in question was Hesiod’s, and the dating of Hesiod

himself, are both problematical.

>>299587

Again, noting the names on this particular Akkadian inscription of the Persians,

“ the Amyrgian Cimmerians ” and “ the Cimmerians (wearing) pointed caps ”, to this we

must compare the language used by Herodotus, who discussing certain of the nations

allied with Persia in Xerxes’ invasion of Greece, wrote of the “ Amyrgian Scythians ” and said that “ The Sacae, or Scyths, were clad in trousers, and had on their heads tall

stiff caps rising to a point ” (The Histories, 7.64). In a footnote at this passage in his

edition of Herodotus, George Rawlinson noted that: “ According to Hellanicus, the word

‘ Amyrgian ’ was strictly a geographical title, Amyrgium being the name of the plain in

which these Scythians dwelt.” Indeed the Cimmerians were but an early migration of

the Scythians, or Sakae, into Europe.

While Homer never mentioned Scythians, Strabo offers a protracted argument

that he knew about them, since he used the epithets “ Hippemolgi ” (mare-milkers),

“ Galactophagi ” (milk-fed) and “ Abii ” (those without a living or having a simple

lifestyle), for which see his Geography 7.3.2, 6, 7 and 9. In places he cites the use of

these epithets for Scythians by both Aeschylus and Hesiod (in an otherwise lost

fragment) to make his point. Yet Strabo also admits that Homer may have been

referencing Thracians, who were said by others to have also led a lifestyle which

beckoned such epithets (cf. Geography 7.3.2, 3, 4), where he cites Poseidonius. While

Strabo wavers in this matter, and seems to want to believe that Homer indeed knew of

the Scythians, he also seems to concede that in the environment of the more rugged

north such a lifestyle, where men live off of their flocks rather than from agriculture, is

quite natural (Geography 7.3.8, 9; 7.4.6). Yet while Homer may surely have meant

other northern tribes by his use of such epithets, such as the Thracians or other Slavs,

and later poets simply transferred the epithets to the Scythians, the argument is rather

irrelevant. Once it is realized that the Kimmerians were simply Scythians by their

Akkadian name, something that later Greeks did not explain and probably did not

realize, it is sure that Homer did know the Scythians: that first wave of Kimmerians from

Asia who destroyed Phrygia, threatened all of Lydia and Ionia, and then crossed into

Europe to inhabit the lands north of Thrace. Seeing then that the Kimmerians and

Sakae, or Scythians, are one and the same in eastern inscriptions, and that the Greeks

employed at the first the Akkadian name for these people, and only later the Persian

name (names well documented in eastern inscriptions before these people were known

in the west), the fact that the Scythians originated in Asia, as Diodorus Siculus relates

(Library of History, 2.43.1-5), is certainly validated.

Writing of a period some time before his own, Herodotus says that the

Kimmerians were dispossessed of their Eastern European lands by the Scythians, and

relates a tale wherein the Kimmerians had fled into Asia (meaning Anatolia, or Asia

Minor, where Phrygia, Lydia and Ionia were located) to escape them, at which point the

Scythians, in pursuit, missed them and poured into Media (The Histories, 4:12).

Herodotus takes this story from the earlier poet Aristeas, and like his forebear, is

evidently seeking to account for the appearance of these peoples in the Greek world,

Anatolia and the Near East. Strabo tells us that “ Aristeas was a Proconnesian – the

author of the Arimaspian Epic, as it is called – a charlatan if there ever was one ”

(Geography, 13.1.16), and does us a service since the account given by Herodotus is

impossible. Diodorus Siculus gives us a much more credible account of Scythian

origins.

>>299588

This would also explain how the word Scythian appears in a fragment which is

attributed to Hesiod, who was regarded by later Greeks to have been a contemporary

of Homer. Yet whether the work in question was Hesiod’s, and the dating of Hesiod

himself, are both problematical.

Again, noting the names on this particular Akkadian inscription of the Persians,

“ the Amyrgian Cimmerians ” and “ the Cimmerians (wearing) pointed caps ”, to this we

must compare the language used by Herodotus, who discussing certain of the nations

allied with Persia in Xerxes’ invasion of Greece, wrote of the “ Amyrgian Scythians ” and said that “ The Sacae, or Scyths, were clad in trousers, and had on their heads tall

stiff caps rising to a point ” (The Histories, 7.64). In a footnote at this passage in his

edition of Herodotus, George Rawlinson noted that: “ According to Hellanicus, the word

‘ Amyrgian ’ was strictly a geographical title, Amyrgium being the name of the plain in

which these Scythians dwelt.” Indeed the Cimmerians were but an early migration of

the Scythians, or Sakae, into Europe.

While Homer never mentioned Scythians, Strabo offers a protracted argument

that he knew about them, since he used the epithets “ Hippemolgi ” (mare-milkers),

“ Galactophagi ” (milk-fed) and “ Abii ” (those without a living or having a simple

lifestyle), for which see his Geography 7.3.2, 6, 7 and 9. In places he cites the use of

these epithets for Scythians by both Aeschylus and Hesiod (in an otherwise lost

fragment) to make his point. Yet Strabo also admits that Homer may have been

referencing Thracians, who were said by others to have also led a lifestyle which

beckoned such epithets (cf. Geography 7.3.2, 3, 4), where he cites Poseidonius. While

Strabo wavers in this matter, and seems to want to believe that Homer indeed knew of

the Scythians, he also seems to concede that in the environment of the more rugged

north such a lifestyle, where men live off of their flocks rather than from agriculture, is

quite natural (Geography 7.3.8, 9; 7.4.6). Yet while Homer may surely have meant

other northern tribes by his use of such epithets, such as the Thracians or other Slavs,

and later poets simply transferred the epithets to the Scythians, the argument is rather

irrelevant. Once it is realized that the Kimmerians were simply Scythians by their

Akkadian name, something that later Greeks did not explain and probably did not

realize, it is sure that Homer did know the Scythians: that first wave of Kimmerians from

Asia who destroyed Phrygia, threatened all of Lydia and Ionia, and then crossed into

Europe to inhabit the lands north of Thrace. Seeing then that the Kimmerians and

Sakae, or Scythians, are one and the same in eastern inscriptions, and that the Greeks

employed at the first the Akkadian name for these people, and only later the Persian

name (names well documented in eastern inscriptions before these people were known

in the west), the fact that the Scythians originated in Asia, as Diodorus Siculus relates

(Library of History, 2.43.1-5), is certainly validated.

Writing of a period some time before his own, Herodotus says that the

Kimmerians were dispossessed of their Eastern European lands by the Scythians, and

relates a tale wherein the Kimmerians had fled into Asia (meaning Anatolia, or Asia

Minor, where Phrygia, Lydia and Ionia were located) to escape them, at which point the

Scythians, in pursuit, missed them and poured into Media (The Histories, 4:12).

Herodotus takes this story from the earlier poet Aristeas, and like his forebear, is

evidently seeking to account for the appearance of these peoples in the Greek world,

Anatolia and the Near East. Strabo tells us that “ Aristeas was a Proconnesian – the

author of the Arimaspian Epic, as it is called – a charlatan if there ever was one ”

(Geography, 13.1.16), and does us a service since the account given by Herodotus is

impossible. Diodorus Siculus gives us a much more credible account of Scythian

origins.

He relates their humble beginnings along the Araxes river in northern Media,

explaining the origins of the various Scythian tribes from this common source, and their spread northward and to both the east as far as India and the west as far as the region

of Europe north of Greece and Thrace (Library of History, 2.43.1-5). These migrations

can be corroborated in many other sources, both historical and archaeological.

Diodorus’ account is fully cohesive with accounts from the east, such as the ancient

Assyrian tablets uncovered by archaeologists in the 19th century, and the testimony of

Flavius Josephus in his Wars and Antiquities (for which see my earlier essay related to

this subject, Classical Records of the Origins of the Scythians, Parthians & Related

Tribes). Contrary to the tale of Herodotus’ cited above, from other sources (notably

Strabo, Geography 1.3.21) we learn that Scythians, led by a certain king Madys, had

driven the Kimmerians (none of the Greek writers realized that the Kimmerians were

Scythians) out of Anatolia some time after Phrygia had been destroyed. The presence

of a town named Sagalassus in northern Pisidia may well be evidence of Scythians in

the region. The “ saga ”, or “ saka ”, sound occurs frequently in names associated with

Scythians, such as Arsaces, Massagetae, Sacarauli, Sacasene, et al. Strabo, in his

Geography mentions both Sagalassus and its people, the Sagalasseis, several times.

Rather than the Scythians chasing the Kimmerians into Anatolia from the north, as

Herodotus alleged, it is much more evident, and may be said with certainty, that

Scythians – among them the Kimmerians – had migrated through Anatolia from the

east.

Writing of his own time, Herodotus mentions Celtica, yet seeming not to know it

by the exact location (i.e., from the Pyrenees to the Rhine) which later writers describe,

he is somewhat inaccurate. Herodotus states: “ This latter river [the Ister, or Danube]

has its source in the country of the Celts near the city Pyrêné, and runs through the

middle of Europe, dividing it into two portions. The Celts live beyond the pillars of

Heracles, and border on the Cynesians, who dwell at the extreme west of Europe. Thus

the Ister flows through the whole of Europe before it finally empties itself into the

Euxine [Black Sea] at Istria, one of the colonies of the Milesians ” (The Histories, 2:33).

Of course, the Danube runs through most of Europe, but doesn’t have its sources

nearly as far west as Iberia. Also by “ the city Pyrêné ” the Pyrenees mountains may

instead have been meant, something being misconstrued in communication. Yet from

this we see that Herodotus knew of Kelts dwelling in the west, near the sources of the

Danube (which would actually be just north of modern Switzerland) and in Iberia. Later

in his history (4:49) Herodotus calls the Cynesians “ Cynêtes ” instead, and Rawlinson

notes that nothing else is known of these people.

The Germanic tribes dwelling north of the Danube were originally called by the

later Greek writers by the name Galatae. Strabo, who lived circa 63 B.C. to 25 A.D.,

says that “… the Germans, who, though they vary slightly from the Celtic stock in that

they are wilder, taller, and have yellower hair, are in all other respects similar, for build,

habits, and modes of life they are such as I have said the Celti are. And I also think that

it was for this reason that the Romans assigned to them the name ‘ Germani,’ as

though they wished to indicate thereby that they were ‘ genuine ’ Galatae, for in the

language of the Romans ‘ germani ’ means ‘ genuine ’” (Geography 7.1.2)

The Loeb

Classical Library edition of Strabo, translated by H.L. Jones, offers the following footnote at this passage: “ So also Julius Caesar, Tacitus, Pliny and the ancient writers

in general regarded the Germans as Celts (Gauls). Dr. Richard Braungart has recently

published a large work in two volumes in which he ably defends his thesis that the Boii,

Vindelici, Rhaeti, Norici, Taurisci, and other tribes, as shown by their agricultural

implements and contrivances, were originally, not Celts, but Germans, and in all

probability, the ancestors of all Germans (Sudgermanen, Heidelberg, 1914).” And

while I certainly have disagreements with Braungart, the fact that Germans were to the

Greeks Galatae (Latin: Gauls) is clear. Diodorus Siculus describes the Galatae who

dwell beyond (east of) the Rhine as tall and blond with very white skin, and says that

they drank beer made from barley and the water in which they washed their

honeycombs, which seems to describe an ancient form of mead (Library of History

5.26.2; 5.28.1). These Galatae used chariots, and wore what seems to be a type of

tartan (5.29.1; 5.30.1).

Yet the name Kelt seems not to have originally belonged to the Galatae.

Describing the inhabitants of what is now southern France, in the region of modern

Narbonne, Strabo says of these people that “… the men of former times named [them]

‘ Celtae ’; and it was from the Celtae, I think, that the Galatae as a whole were by the

Greeks called ‘ Celti ’ – on account of the fame of the Celtae, or it may also be that the

Massiliotes, as well as other Greek neighbors, contributed to this result, on account of

their proximity ” (Geography 4.1.14). With this the earlier Diodorus Siculus, whose

writing brings us to about 36 B.C. (since he describes the transition of Tauromenium in

Sicily to a Roman colony) agrees, stating: “ And now it will be useful to draw a

distinction which is unknown to many: The peoples who dwell in the interior above

Massalia, those on the slopes of the Alps, and those on this side the Pyrenees

mountains are called Celts, whereas the peoples who are established above this land

of Celtica in the parts which stretch to the north, both along the ocean and along the

Hercynian Mountain, and all the peoples who come after these, as far as Scythia, are

known as Gauls [Greek: Galatae]; the Romans, however, include all these nations

together under a single name, calling them one and all Gauls [Greek: Galatae] ”

(Library of History, 5.32.1). So it is evident that Kelts and Galatae were at one time

distinct. Herodotus knew of the Kelts, but did not use the term Galatae, yet at an early

time the terms became synonymous to the Greeks and Romans. Polybius, who wrote

up to about 146 B.C., over a hundred years before Diodorus Siculus, was already using

the terms Kelts and Galatae synonymously, even in the same paragraph (i.e. The

Histories, 2.17.3-5; 2.33.1-5). Throughout his own writings even Diodorus uses the two

terms interchangeably, and also often in the same paragraphs (i.e. 14.113-117), while

on other occasions he distinguishes between them (i.e. 25.13.1). Diodorus never used

the term German, but called the tribes that dwelt east of the Rhine – some of which he

mentioned by their individual names – Galatae also, where he tells of Julius Caesar’s

conquests there (Library of History, 5.25.4).

>>299593

Massalia (or often Massilia, the modern Marseilles) was an early Ionian

(Phocian, Ionians from Phocis) Greek settlement in Keltica and in proximity to the Kelts.

Massalia is mentioned by Herodotus (i.e. The Histories, 5:9) and was founded circa 600 B.C. It is most likely that Herodotus learned about the Kelts only from these Phocian

Greeks, who had founded Massalia and other western colonies with much resistance

from the rival Phoenicians and Etruscans (c.f. The Encyclopedia of World History, 6th

ed. Houghton - Mifflin Co., 2001, pp. 60-62). While I cannot presently determine with

confidence whether Kelts were already inhabiting the southern parts of France when

the Phocians founded their colonies – and it appears that they may not have been –

they certainly were there by Herodotus’ time (circa 440 B.C.), and so the Greeks and

Romans surely must have been familiar with the Kelts around Marseilles well before the

Galatae invaded Italy. Yet where the Galatae first appeared in northern Italy late in the

5th century B.C., Livy, the Roman historian, in his account calls them a “ strange race,

new settlers ” (History of Rome, 5.17.6-10). A short time later, after conquering the

Etruscans, these Galatae nearly destroyed Rome, circa 390 B.C. Yet, as Strabo attests

that the Romans do, the Kelts about Massilia, like those who invaded Rome, are called

“ Gauls ” by Livy as he relates the much earlier founding of that city (5.34.8). If the

Romans were familiar with the Kelts around Massalia when that city was founded, and

the Galatae were Kelts, how could Livy consider the Galatae who appeared in northern

Italy 200 years later a “ strange race ”? And while Herodotus mentioned the Kelts,

Kimmerians and Scythians of Europe, he never used the term Galatae, and may well

have been ignorant of it. According to the 9th edition of the Liddell & Scott GreekEnglish Lexicon, the term Galatae does not appear until the 4th century B.C., where it is

found in a fragment attributed to Aristotle. So with all of this, we see some confusion in

the application of the names Kelt and Gaul, or Galatae, from the earliest times.

There is one possible solution to the paradox concerning the application of these

names as described by the early historians, which I shall take liberty to propose here.

The Phoenicians were of the same origins as the German tribes, for which see my

earlier essays Classical And Biblical Records Identifying the Phoenicians; Herodotus,

Scythians, Persians & Prophecy; and Classical Records Of The Origins Of The

Scythians, Parthians & Related Tribes, along with subsequent portions of this current

essay which shall endeavor to establish that German origins are found with the

Kimmerians and Scythians. The Phoenicians, as described by the Greek tragic poets

and others, such as the Roman Virgil, were fair and blond, and they settled the coasts

and river valleys of Western Europe for several centuries before the arrival of the

Greeks in that region. So it is plausible that with these people lies the origin of the

original Celtae, and that these are people often identified as “ proto-Celts ” by modern

archaeologists, at least on many of the occasions where “ proto-Celts ” are identified,

and that once becoming known to the Greeks and Romans, the other tribes appearing

to the north were also called by the same name, having been imagined to be related,

as in truth they actually were.

>>299594

A Phoenician presence on the coasts as well as the

interiors of Iberia and Britain, where they mined metals such as tin and silver, can be

established as having existed long before the Greeks and Romans began writing of

Celti, Galatae, and Gauls. Perhaps coincidentally, the smaller island northwest of

Malta, south of Sicily, which was colonized by the Phoenicians, Diodorus Siculus calls

Gaulos (the modern Gozo) in his Library of History at 5.12.4. While this hypothesis may be conjectural, it does agree with the testimonies of Strabo regarding the names Celtae

and Celti, and of Diodorus regarding Celts and Galatae, cited above. What all of this

has to do with the Kimmerians and the Scythians shall hopefully become evident in the parts of this essay which follow.

Fin. Part 1 of 6

SOURCE: https://christogenea.org/essays/classical-records-and-german-origins-part-one

https://christogenea.org/essays/classical-records-and-german-origins-part-one

>>299595

Edom = Adom = Adam (check strongs)…he who sold his inheritance and gave up being made in the image of God so that he could be made in the image of men. I like the Christogenea guys…though they banned me last time because I refused to listen to that kike Paul or even acknowledge him, preferring Jesus words alone (living a kike free lifestyle if I can).

Mark. 8 Verse 36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Where does she wander, I wonder…lol

>>300101

if you believe that Jesus and the Israelites were not kikes, then why do you believe Paul is a 'kike', who said in Romans 11:1 “I am of the tribe of Benjamin.” and proceeded to preach a message in tangent with that of the ministry of Christ. I'm confused as to why you would believe Christian identity in general but then not extend that same Christian Identity logic to Paul. There is an entire series explaining how Paul is not a kike & how his writing fits in with the rest of the new testament https://christogenea.org/podcasts/paul-bashers