a8b834 No.157123
It really irritates me that whenever you talk to Christians online about forgiving enemies, they always assume the enemy is sinning, is misguided, doesn't know what they're doing, is wrong, you have done nothing to deserve their treatment etc. I think the people who not only assume the enemies are like this but also are totally incapable of imagining it might be different, have very little own experience of enemies. The fact of the matter is very often enemies think they are doing God's work punishing you. Some of these idiots say well if they did nothing wrong, or they didn't break the law, or you broke the law and they enforced the law etc then they aren't your enemies and so there is nothing to forgive. This is really a very naive worldview.
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f5d921 No.157127
Many Christians do okay with the being innocent as doves thing, but fall short when it comes to being wise as serpents.
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ce572d No.157135
Arguing with Christians is a fucking waste of time. You might just as well argue with schitzophrenics. They both believe in imaginary demons and ghosts that they worship.
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647dc3 No.157146
>>157123
Your average Christian hasn't even read the Bible. They get spoon fed what they want to hear from old faggots who don't pay taxes, just so they can feel righteous.
I don't really blame them though, ignorance really is bliss.
Theologians generally have higher quality discussions, even with illiterate niggers.
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0b808a No.157196
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ce572d No.157219
>>157196
I don't know where you get the idea that the OP is "blogging" here somewhow. He raises a legitimate psychological/philosophical issue that has certain political consequences in our current situation, given that so many on the right and the left are basing their political stances on their fundamental religious beliefs.
You're a wee bit too trigger happy on the censoriousness here, I think.
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ce572d No.157222
>>157123
I think the thing about Christians and their forgiveness is how quick they are to publicly forgive some asshole for the crime they've committed, often a terrible one. It's the worst most disgusting form of "virtue signalling" there is I think.
Seeing some evil shit smirking with sadistic cynical glee as some dopey relative forgives him WITHOUT THE SCUM EVER HAVING APOLOGIZED OR DONE ANY PENNANCE is utterly insane. For that alone I want to spit on Christians and Christianity.
Seeing Amy Biehl's mommy running around in public hugging her daughter's savage murderers with a big toothpaste smile on her stupid fat face makes me wonder if those evil shitskins aren't boning that idiotic grinning cunt up her fat cellulite ass.
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0b808a No.157223
>>157219
>a legitimate psychological/philosophical issue that has certain political consequences in our current situation
The only issue here is the incorrect contextualization. Objective physical truth exists and is codified as natural law. There is truth which underpins all existence and all social interaction. There’s failure on the part of both parties here: first, the person who assumes that wrong (objective) was done out of misunderstanding or lack of knowledge; second, the person doing the (objective) wrong thinking that they’re right.
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ce572d No.157226
>>157223
>Objective physical truth exists
And Christians implicity deny this in their fundamental belief system. Christianity is nothing more than a ghost story; a man is murdered unjustly and his ghost comes back to haunt the living and promise eternal vengeance at some unspecified future date. He is able to do this because he is in fact the human manifestation in the flesh of the creator of the entire universe. In fact he claims to be the Logos itself, that is the fundamental rational scheme behind the entire physical world. When ever I read that assertion in the Bible it always makes me ask; "Orly? so why didn't you tell us all about non Euclidian geometries or about how DNA strands wrap around dimers or about how gravity can simultaneously travel at the speed of light and be instantaneous over a distance while you were here instead of mixing mud with your saliva and using it to cure some supposed blind person?
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2cf627 No.157240
>>157223
>The only issue here is the incorrect contextualization. Objective physical truth exists and is codified as natural law. There is truth which underpins all existence and all social interaction. There’s failure on the part of both parties here: first, the person who assumes that wrong (objective) was done out of misunderstanding or lack of knowledge; second, the person doing the (objective) wrong thinking that they’re right.
I don't really understand what you're saying and how it relates to what I said in the OP but you seem to be coming from the same perspective as those Christians I was talking about. There might be objective right and wrong but when the Bible talks about forgiving the enemy does this objective right and wrong really have any bearing on that? It might because apparently even though the Bible says to forgive and not avenge, this is really an empty statement because when it's the state punishing it's totally fine, even though it's a form of vengeance. However I think maybe the objective right and wrong doesn't have any bearing on forgiving enemies, because as I said why can't you have enemies who think they are doing what's right, or even who are objectively doing what's right? I don't see how an enemy must necessarily be sinning or committing crime. When you are jealous of someone that someone is a sort of enemy. To me enemy seems to be mostly defined by your own mind, not by something outside of you such as law, whether manmade law or "God's law". It seems relevant that a Buddhist nun said in the West we think some amount of anger is sane while in Buddhism any amount of anger is a mental sickness. I also think these Christians I was talking to made a logical fallacy. They said if you have broken the law and someone was enforcing the law by punishing you they aren't your enemies and you have no right to be angry at them. What does that even mean? It's implying that you do have a right to be angry at someone who is a legitimate enemy by breaking a law. But the enemies are the ones you are supposed to forgive according to the Bible, and you're not forgiving them if you are angry at them. So you have a right to be angry at them but at the same time you shouldn't be angry at them? No, this seems to stem from a lack of enlightenment about the true nature of things, and Buddhism might be getting closer to that, and there are people who believe most of the message of the big religions is the same anyway, just expressed differently. When she was talking about the idea in the West that might not be what Jesus meant but rather a sign the predominant "religion" in the West currently is something else.
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2cf627 No.157241
Most people view the criminal and the state as being in a sort of objective wrong vs right relationship. But I view it more as being a might is right relationship. What about organized crime? Someone said the mafia groups are remnants of old aristocracies who are trying to cling on to the kingdoms they used to be. The top dog defines who's a criminal and who isn't. What about war? How is the criminal really any different from the enemy in a war? And if it weren't for the invention of the radar, the stealth airplane would never have been invented.
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ce572d No.157250
>>157241
Nor would the computers we have on our desks. They were created and miniaturized to provide guidance systems for ICBMs.
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d81e89 No.157251
Christianity is about a personal relationship with God and a path to heaven, it is NOT a prescription for how to run a whole society. Jesus was expected to return within the lifetimes of the desciples. There was no long-term plan.
When you see it as a set of instructions for a personal path to salvation, the rediculousness of using it to constitute a society becomes obvious.
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df659d No.157260
>>157250
Ok but do you see the greater point I was trying to make with that statement but which I was too tired to elaborate on?
>>157251
Ok but you aren't really addressing the topic
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0b808a No.157263
>>157226
>And Christians implicity deny this in their fundamental belief system.
In what way? All the doctrine hinges around there being a singular good and a myriad bad. That’s the opposite of jewish communist dialectic.
>it always makes me ask; "Orly? so why didn't you tell us all about non Euclidian geometries or about how DNA strands wrap around dimers or about how gravity can simultaneously travel at the speed of light and be instantaneous over a distance
1. Because what’s some Bronze Age retard going to know about that or understand it? They couldn’t even comprehend electromagnetism if you showed it to them.
2. Christianity says a lot about healthy social order and interaction that has been scientifically quantified in the last century or so.
3. I do, however, think it’s goddamn interesting that the order of creation in Genesis fits the secular understanding of the formation of the solar system and the rise of life on Earth.
>>157240
>when the Bible talks about forgiving the enemy does this objective right and wrong really have any bearing on that?
Forgiveness in Christian doctrine has been grossly perverted these days (guess by ✡whom✡) such that people think it means something it doesn’t. Particularly the “turn the other cheek” bit is utterly wrong. Christian forgiveness means to let go of petty, personal bickering or wrongs–ONLY WHERE SUCH WRONGS DO NOT COINCIDE WITH SIN.
>why can't you have enemies who think they are doing what's right, or even who are objectively doing what's right?
If they’re doing what is objectively right, how, then, are they enemies?
>I don't see how an enemy must necessarily be sinning or committing crime.
To the latter, of course; jews have made it legal to do anything they want, and what they want is always objectively wrong. In that case, it’s not a “crime” only insofar as it’s not ~locally~ illegal. To the former, sin is sin for a reason, and that reason can be quantified humanistically. It’s a sin to ~let~ your society collapse through inaction. It’s a sin to ~let~ your history be erased. This bullshit of “tolerance” doesn’t show up anywhere in the New Testament.
>When you are jealous of someone that someone is a sort of enemy.
Envious, but sort of.
>To me enemy seems to be mostly defined by your own mind, not by something outside of you such as law, whether manmade law or "God's law."
We (here) try to be better than that. We understand that truth exists, and that anyone outside of it is our enemy.
>It seems relevant that a Buddhist nun said in the West we think some amount of anger is sane while in Buddhism any amount of anger is a mental sickness.
Buddhism, I think, is an even further extreme in the “tolerance” the OP is discussing. And Christianity–actual Christianity–doesn’t put up with that shit.
>“Thus evil may be found in anger, when one is angry more or less than right reason demands. But if one is angry in accordance with right reason, one's anger is deserving of praise.” ~ St. Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologiae, Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 158
>I also think these Christians I was talking to made a logical fallacy. They said if you have broken the law and someone was enforcing the law by punishing you they aren't your enemies and you have no right to be angry at them.
Not just a logical fallacy, a theological fallacy. They’re heretics. You’re absolutely right.
>So you have a right to be angry at them but at the same time you shouldn't be angry at them?
I won’t defend someone stupid enough to say what you claim they said above, but I’ll redirect your question at the pink quote above. I’ll also add some more, because they accurately reflect the frame of mind of Jesus himself when combatting jews.
<“Hate is your soul’s immune system. And, by extension, your nation’s.” ~ Anonymous
<“True love is eventually measured by your willingness and ability to become a monster in order to protect those you love. You will do the unthinkable. What people so far could not even have imagined or dare not hope. You will do what cannot be discussed later.” ~ Kai Murros; National Revolution in England; 2005
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5a8a43 No.157333
>>157263
>If they’re doing what is objectively right, how, then, are they enemies?
You are saying exactly what those people said who I talked about in the OP. You have exactly the worldview I said they have. Firstly you can have enemies for a million reasons that have nothing to do with them sinning or committing crime, if this is hard for you to imagine you have no experience of life and/or is dumb as fuck. I brought up war as an example, there are no laws in war. Someone is trying to put you down at school. Whatever. Secondly as I said I think what is an enemy is defined by your mind. If you hate somebody that person is an enemy, period.
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ce572d No.157338
>>157251
>>157251
Somebody should have told that to the hordes of crazy ex nuns, recently freed from their convents by Luther, that converged on Munster, and took it over to banish all laws of men and eradicate all private property, under the sole authority of the law of God as enumerated by Jesus in the gospels. What a catastrophe that was. They wound up eating their own babies.
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5a8a43 No.157346
>>157263
>Christian forgiveness means to let go of petty, personal bickering or wrongs–ONLY WHERE SUCH WRONGS DO NOT COINCIDE WITH SIN.
>If they’re doing what is objectively right, how, then, are they enemies?
And you are also making the same logical fallacy as those other people I talked to. At first you're saying forgiving of enemies in the Bible is about people who haven't sinned. Literally next fucking sentence you're saying how are people who haven't sinned enemies? Are you fucking retarded?
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5a8a43 No.157347
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4deb13 No.157351
>>157123
>>157127
>>157135
>>157146
>>157196
Lmao 8ch is so obviously owned ans astroturfed by freemasons. Kys faggots.
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0b808a No.157358
>>157333
>Firstly you can have enemies for a million reasons that have nothing to do with them sinning or committing crime
This was never in question.
>I think what is an enemy is defined by your mind.
Sure. But objective truth exists, so people who hold themselves to a standard of what we call humanity will find enemies in those who claim truth doesn’t exist.
>If you hate somebody that person is an enemy, period.
The point is that we have to be better than petty bullshit.
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5a8a43 No.157361
>>157358
No the point is that who is an enemy isn't defined by law or anything else outside of you. If you are put in prison the police and judge etc might be your enemy, regardless of who did wrong and who did right. If you are in the military the soldiers of the opponent country are enemies, doesn't matter if you are invading or defending, doesn't matter if you think you are spreading the right type of politics or simply want more land.
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ce572d No.157417
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78dae0 No.157436
>>157222
You aren't wrong. This whole forgive your enemies shit started around the late 1800s from you guessed jewish "priest" and this when they started bringing in the jews are our friends even though jews want to genocide White People. The whole kiss the ass of evil pushed in Christianity was so people would trust jews.
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0b808a No.157451
>>157361
>truth doesn’t exist
Okay, your point is objectively wrong and there’s literally no point. I was right to sage.
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3d6105 No.157479
>>157451
That's not what I said, imbecile
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922da5 No.157712
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5a6169 No.157751
>>157123
> they always assume the enemy is sinning
They are. So are you. So am I. We are all sinners sinning every hour of every day. That's from the Bible and if you can't wrap your head around that from the beginning, you shouldn't have killed another thread to make this one.
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673af2 No.157755
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0b808a No.157786
>>157479
It’s exactly what you said. Truth exists outside the self. It’s objective and not defined by situational or emotional contexts. Anyone can believe a lie or be driven by emotion; that doesn’t make what they do “right” unless it’s in line with objective truth.
>>157712
Sage.
>>157755
Great argument.
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7cd1de No.157800
>>157786
You clearly didn't read the OP
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800fdf No.157804
Often there are assumptions about how Christians are or what they believe. At times the absurdity is laughable about some common misconception. No there's not a man in the clouds. Yes they do believe in Science, it's really possible. There's more that is projected upon modern Christian types than what they're capable of or responsible for.
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cf7c61 No.157805
>>157804
>a bloo-bloo-bloo the single largest group, the literal global majorty, is soooo oppressed
stfu cuck. If you believed in science, then you wouldn't believe a sky fairy impregnated a teenager to become flesh god.
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bbfd87 No.157821
>>157123
What makes you think this is the place to voice this opinion? It's clear you're trying to disrupt things here.
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0b808a No.157824
>>157805
>strawmans the entire premise
>strawmans all statistics
>has absolutely no fucking argument at all
That’s cute. Tip harder.
>>157800
Did. Feel free to deny objective truth on any other website, please.
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530486 No.157891
>>157824
Damn you are stupid. You don't understand a fucking thing I've said.
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530486 No.157896
I'm charged with crime and have trial soon. The people that were there that day are my enemies. Doesn't matter if I'm guilty. Someone said if you're guilty and they enforced the law then they aren't your enemies and you have no right to be angry at them. As I said this is a retarded statement and a logical fallacy because it implies if someone is a legitimate enemy by breaking some law then you do have a right to be angry at them, but you are supposed to forgive your enemies. It makes no sense to say that who is an enemy is defined by law or anything else outside of you. Who is an enemy is whoever your mind says is an enemy.
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239f1f No.158158
Turns out people are just as stupid here as they are on reddit.
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