/mu/ - Music

For a while I thought Dragonforce was made up of japs, so I was surprised to see that it actually originates from England

Rosenfeld is one I can think of. Jap speed metal is odd, mix of crust punk and hair metal aesthetic with national socialist shit thrown in. It works I guess you could say.

Does stuff like Sabbat count?

>>98904

More black/thrash than anything

>>98955

Well, but it started with Bathory style, which is more speed/thrash than truly black.

>>98964

More like the later black metal bands moved away from the roots of the style by experimenting and put a different twist on it while continuing to use the name Venom gave to their own sound. It's pretty much identical to what happened with Possessed and death metal.

>>98969

But first wave black metal is just raw speed/thrash. Pretty sure that it didn't call itself black metal.

Same with Possessed, just because they did a demo called Death Metal and had a rather violent sound, they're retroactively called death metal. Personally, I find Pleasure to Kill way more important in the history of death.

In the end, you've got to differenciate proto-X and X.

>>98987

>But first wave black metal is just raw speed/thrash. Pretty sure that it didn't call itself black metal.

That's how Venom defined it, and they created the term. The Norwegian scene got the term from them and was clearly full of Venom fans (Varg Vikernes being an exception; he claimed he wore that Venom shirt just because it said "Black Metal" on it). While the sound is distinct from the later bands, a lot of the genre hallmarks were already there in early Venom, like use of pseudonyms, the lo-fi recording, the overtly satanic presentation, and even the way they'd present themselves brandishing medieval weapons in publicity photos.

Bathory was the other main influence (besides what Tom G. Warrior and friends had been putting out), and they clearly were closer to the more intense, treble-heavy sound of the Norwegian bands. And although Quorthon claimed that Venom weren't an influence on his music, that seems really doubtful:

http://www.morbidcurse.com/article6.html

>Same with Possessed, just because they did a demo called Death Metal and had a rather violent sound, they're retroactively called death metal.

Chuck Schuldiner himself gave credit to Possessed for inventing death metal. Kam Lee recalled being blown away by them during their Mantas days and inspiring their sound. Jeff Becerra supposedly even used the term "death metal" for a school assignment back in 1983, which would predate his band's demo tape and that Hellhammer split release by a year or so.

These bands weren't given these labels retroactively; it's the other way around. Bands in any given musical style will inevitably take things in a different direction from the musicians who influenced them, so revisionists take this as an invitation to retroactively exclude bands who were previously recognized as pioneers in their genre.

>>99000

You didn't get the point. Possessed invented the term death metal and helped shape its sound, but ultimately wasn't what the label "Death metal" meant after its sense was fully constructed and its use widespread.

You can say the same with black metal even if Venom is arguable closer to the end result. But I think the second wave was more influenced by the harshness of stuff like early Sodom, Tormentor and INRI. Venom's sound is just too damn mellow, almost Saint Vitus like to be considered black metal, to me.

>>99001

He got your point, you're just posting bullshit.

>>99001

Idk man, even a lot of later bands emulated that original Venom sound.

>>99001

>You didn't get the point. Possessed invented the term death metal and helped shape its sound, but ultimately wasn't what the label "Death metal" meant after its sense was fully constructed and its use widespread.

What does "death metal" mean, then? The Latin-inspired jazz fusion sound of Atheist? Terrorizer's deathgrind style? The more melodic stuff from Arch Enemy, At the Gates, and later Carcass? Even Death's albums closer to the end don't sound all that much like Scream Bloody Gore.

If a band creates both the name and basic template for a style of music and the other leading contenders for the title of first band to play x style credit them as their inspiration, I think it's safe to consider them part of the genre.

>But I think the second wave was more influenced by the harshness of stuff like early Sodom, Tormentor and INRI.

That stuff was either influenced directly by Venom or influenced by bands following in Venom's footsteps (like Bathory and Celtic Frost).

>Venom's sound is just too damn mellow, almost Saint Vitus like to be considered black metal, to me.

They weren't as intense as the bands who followed them, but Welcome to Hell really laid the foundation for extreme metal. That's why everyone from Metallica and Slayer in the U.S. to the members of the Teutonic thrash scene like Kreator, Sodom, and Destruction were fans of theirs in addition to the black metal guys.

>>99044

>What does "death metal" mean, then? The Latin-inspired jazz fusion sound of Atheist? Terrorizer's deathgrind style? The more melodic stuff from Arch Enemy, At the Gates, and later Carcass? Even Death's albums closer to the end don't sound all that much like Scream Bloody Gore.

You're not being honest here, but if I must choose the most representative one, it'd be Scream Bloody Gore, indeed. It's plain, but that's the point.

>influenced

>followed Venom's footsteps

>laid the foundation

I mean, reread your post, m8. How does that mean that Venom is black metal? Of course it's the root of it, but that's not an argument.

To be honest, the first wave of black metal is just a bullshit concept to label dirty speed/thrash and give more cred to the real genre (look, it has an old history!): there's only one black metal genre that's distinct from speed/thrash and that's the second wave. And the third wave is an even more retarded concept; it's just experimental and mostly bad black metal.

Are you gonna say that Meshuggah is djent because it spawned the abomination, too?

>>99061

>You're not being honest here, but if I must choose the most representative one, it'd be Scream Bloody Gore, indeed. It's plain, but that's the point.

The point is that musicians are always going to take things in a different direction from the bands who influenced them. Musical styles are never static. That doesn't mean earlier artists should be excluded further down the road because they don't fit into a narrow revisionist conception of what a particular style is supposed to be. Possessed were already recognized as a death metal band before Scream Bloody Gore came out, and, as mentioned before, were credited by the Death guys for their sound.

>I mean, reread your post, m8. How does that mean that Venom is black metal? Of course it's the root of it, but that's not an argument

>To be honest, the first wave of black metal is just a bullshit concept to label dirty speed/thrash and give more cred to the real genre (look, it has an old history!): there's only one black metal genre that's distinct from speed/thrash and that's the second wave. And the third wave is an even more retarded concept; it's just experimental and mostly bad black metal.

Venom not only came up with the term, but were hugely influential on the later bands who described themselves as black metal. It's not like Venom's black style was something completely unrelated to the what later bands played (the way the "deathrock" of Christian Death and .45 Grave had nothing to do with the teenage tragedy songs that were called "death rock" long before them). There's a clear line of influence that extends back to Venom from the later bands. When the post-Venom bands called themselves "black metal," they were doing it with Venom in mind.

>Are you gonna say that Meshuggah is djent because it spawned the abomination, too?

That's a different case in that they never coined the term "djent" or called themselves that in the first place. You could argue that they are (in the same sense that the early heavy metal bands didn't call themselves "heavy metal"), but I don't know enough about that scene to say one way or the other. It sounds like calling Black Sabbath a doom metal band.

>>99061

>Are you gonna say that Meshuggah is djent because it spawned the abomination, too?

Actually, yes. He might not, but I definitely would. Would be tough to classify them otherwise.

>>99065

Death metal (and music genres, in general) doesn't change, that's why you have the experimental/avant-guarde labels (and all the mixes like doom/death, black/death, etc…). It's simply death metal with something added. And that's why I chose SBG: you can easily view it as a base that has some stuff changed/added.

>rest of your post

You're just repeating yourself, now. Influence != Part of; even if it's the main influence.

I have another argument too, take Dark Angel which can be considererd as Possessed on steroid and demonstrably nearer to death metal than Possessed on every account. Did you ever heard someone call it death metal? No, for everyone (probably you too), it's just violent thrash, but not death.

Black Sabbath isn't doom metal, Possessed isn't death and Venom isn't black.

>>99068

Something is not X because you can't easily classify it. To most people, Meshuggah is death metal with some other stuff mixed in (thrash, fusion, a little doom).

>>99076

>Something is not X because you can't easily classify it. To most people, Meshuggah is death metal with some other stuff mixed in (thrash, fusion, a little doom).

Except they're closer to Djent than they are death metal. The only reason not to call them Djent is because they were first. Whereas the only reason to call them DM is 'cuz the vox are, like, growly and shit.

>Death metal (and music genres, in general) doesn't change,

Lol yeah it does

Even Death from SBG to Leprosy changed.

>I have another argument too, take Dark Angel which can be considererd as Possessed on steroid and demonstrably nearer to death metal than Possessed on every account.

I've never heard anyone say this.

Honestly, Slayer (Hell Awaits especially but RIB too) is closer to DM than Dark Angel is - it's the riffs. Dark Angel is a thrashier sounding band, same with Morbid Saint or Finished With the Dogs-era Holy Moses - you can play really extreme, fast thrash without it being DM. On the other hand, Possessed's riffs are less thrashy and their structure is less about being fast and aggressive and more about creating an evil heavily-tremolo picked sound with weird riff/beat changes.

I'd actually make the same argument with Venom, too - like you could take Destruction and say they're arguably more extreme, but their riffs are thrashier and less evil sounding. Not that Destruction wasn't influential to later BM, but Venom actually fits the label better because they don't really do thrash riffs and sound darker and there's not actually much stylistic difference between Venom and early Bathory. The Venom sound was only gradually and partially taken out of black metal (before that point a host of bands like early Sodom, Bathory, early Kat, Bulldozer, and Exorcist had emulated that sound) and even then it's been revisited since the 2nd wave by bands like Gehennah.

>Black Sabbath isn't doom metal,

Musically a ton of doom is just straight Sabbath worship, though. You can be a heavy metal band without also being doom metal, but Sabbath was both if we're going by music. Compare Vol. 4 to like Rising or In Rock or Taken By Force or basically anything else that got called metal in the '70s and still gets called metal today. Most of it wasn't total bluesed-out dirges.

>>99077

Relistened to Seven Churches and you're right, it passes as death metal, even if it's close. About Black Sabbath, yeah, I was tired and shitposting, it's obviously doom (I mean, Saint Vitus wouldn't be doom, otherwise). But you will never make me say that Venom is black metal; it seems obvious to me that Bathory is the first real black metal band.

>>99077

>Except they're closer to Djent than they are death metal.

Depends on the album, really.

>Honestly, Slayer (Hell Awaits especially but RIB too) is closer to DM than Dark Angel is

Wat. I mean, you could have a point with Reign in Blood or Haunting the Chapel, but not Hell Awaits.

>Dark Angel is a thrashier sounding band

That's wrong, m8. Especially the drum.

>Bathory influenced by Venom

I don't quite hear it and I'm inclined to believe Quorthon when he said he didn't know Venom.

>>99086

To add a bit, I'd say Meshuggah became djent starting with Nothing (which is also the album they started using detuned 7-strings or 8-strings) with Catch Thirtythree being their last death album. And they became total garbage with Koloss.

>>99077

>>Death metal (and music genres, in general) doesn't change,

>Lol yeah it does

>Even Death from SBG to Leprosy changed.

That's like saying that the concept of car changes because there are a lot of different models and colours.

Sorry about this piece by piece posting.

>>99076

>Death metal (and music genres, in general) doesn't change, that's why you have the experimental/avant-guarde labels (and all the mixes like doom/death, black/death, etc…). It's simply death metal with something added. And that's why I chose SBG: you can easily view it as a base that has some stuff changed/added.

Standards of what constitutes music of a certain genre change over time. The trailblazers of a certain type of music will inevitably sound different from what their followers are playing. Fusing different styles and influences while exaggerating or downplaying certain elements is how you get new genres in the first place.

>I have another argument too, take Dark Angel which can be considererd as Possessed on steroid and demonstrably nearer to death metal than Possessed on every account. Did you ever heard someone call it death metal? No, for everyone (probably you too), it's just violent thrash, but not death.

The line between death metal and thrash can be pretty blurry (especially considering all extreme metal really grew out of what thrash bands were doing), but I'd consider the more aggressive thrash groups like Dark Angel and Reign in Blood-era Slayer proto-death bands. Gene Hoglan even said that he considers Slayer to be the first death metal band. You have to draw the line somewhere, though, so it makes the most sense to do it with the band who coined the name of the genre, were referred to as playing it early on, and lent their sound to the other pioneers of the style.

>Black Sabbath isn't doom metal

True.

>Possessed isn't death and Venom isn't black.

They created the terms, and their sound was the basis for the bands that came later. It makes sense to draw the line with them moew than with anyone else given those facts.