No.950 [View All]
/leftypol/ crashing in, sorry for crossposting hopefully I don't get banned
How do I reconcile being a far-leftist with my monarchist tendencies, I like the aesthetics of it but being a socialist is quite antithetical to it.
are there any readings on monarchism from a leftist perspective, a monarch that upholds the revolution, something similar to Napoleon and the french revolution
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No.3630
>>958
Guild socialism seems like it would pair well with monarchy.
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No.3643
>>953
That's peak monarchism.
Why does everyone assume monarchs are the high class decadent sort? They can rule any way they like.
Authoritarian-socialism is a shit contradiction because it is a return of an absolutist ruling class. It even has its personality cult tendencies to fill in for the absence of a god.
>Posts from 2017
Polite sage
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No.6357
Marx himself wrote about the Incan empire. It was so successful that rooms full of silver and gold meant nothing to them - in fact, they even dealt with the problem of currency by giving cloth to those who put forth exemplary effort, meanwhile everyone usually worked to survive and thus would generally always be entitled to the fruits of their labor, with excess that was not necessary going to redistribution efforts.
It was a fascinating centrally planned economy.
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No.6358
I suppose a monarch could enact whatever economic policies he pleased, but I find it difficult to justify a monarch's rule with a leftist value system. In the right wing, of course, there is divine right to rule, that the monarchs are chosen by God to guide the people. But with a leftist worldview that values equality of any/every kind, it's hard to justify having a monarch who is and will always be higher than all other men. Which is funny because socialism/communism, the ideologies of equality, gave rise to so many absolute rulers.
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No.6360
>>3643
Who invited butterfly?
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No.6361
>>6358
>Which is funny because socialism/communism, the ideologies of equality, gave rise to so many absolute rulers.
Not necessarily because of egalitarianism. This point of view is not egalitarian, but the view that the People, or the General Will, is the government. Ideologies elevate their leader to represent the Proletariat and because that person is the proletariat. Now, no more boomer-tier comparisons of absolute monarchs like the Tsars and Stalin. It's also debatable how you feel about the abolition of serfdom.
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No.6363
>>6361
So now the proletariat is some kind of spiritual concept that can choose a champion to guide it's people?
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No.6364
>>6363
Go look at the Cult of Personality posters. That is usually the case. The communist leaders are usually seem as the arm of the Proletariat, leading them on the right path. It's not necessarily choosing, but the unified will of the Proletariat.
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No.6365
>>6363
No matter how much leftists label the French Revolution as the "Bourgeois" revolution, their ideological roots are still tied there. The influence of the Proletariat and generally all left-leaning ideas, take a big step from Rousseau. This animosity towards social order and this democratic urge takes roots. Rousseau, like Hobbes, sees the government "as the People", but unlike Hobbes, Rousseau takes an opposite direction and calls for emancipation. I feel that there is something orthodox from this pov, as Hobbes is heavily influenced by Aristotle's politics… but it's reformed and modern, with social contract theory. Being a democracy, an aristocracy, or a monarchy was like a state of being for the whole polity, but I wouldn't stretch that it was like Hobbes' view of Commonwealth. It was bent on hierarchy and land ownership.
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No.7687
It can work it you're not specifically wedded to Marxism and it's autistic hatred of virtually all inequality (and you shouldn't be, because it's track record it terrible). Obviously, there's some types of monarchism that are incompatible, but a monarch and nobility aligned with the working poor and small business owners against the psuedo-aristocratic mercentile elite should generally be comparable with the left wing.
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No.7697
>>6365
ever heard of Ferdinand Tonnies? he seemed to merge Rousseau with Hobbes.
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No.7738
WORLD SOCIALIST MONARCHY?
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No.7741
Economically left-wing monarchism? Maybe
Marxist monarchy? Hell no
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No.7757
>>7687
>Obviously, there's some types of monarchism that are incompatible, but a monarch and nobility aligned with the working poor and small business owners against the psuedo-aristocratic mercentile elite should generally be comparable with the left wing.
That's already setting one foot in territory you don't want to step in as a monarchist. You shouldn't feel the need to apologize for inequality, not even for unearned wealth. All the wealth of a king is initially unearned, and in many cases, it remains so. Comparatively few kings live up to the dignity of their position. If you accept the proposition that unearned wealth should be returned to the have-nots, you set yourself on a slippery slope, and at the end of the slope, there's a guillotine.
Guys like Rawls, who exemplify this mindset, could never take an effective stance against leftism. Never get in the habit of apologizing for inequalities. Instead, say outright that inequality is nothing to apologize for. There are guys who are born with truly superior genetics, who could benchpress two hundred pounds at sixteen, but no one without an inferiority complex would begrudge their gains. Why, then, do we begrudge people who are born wealthier than us, or who luckily stumbled into wealth?
The problem isn't wealth. It can be political power being linked with wealth. It can be an unhealthy obsession with material things. It can be dishonest work being rewarding, although we shouldn't judge too harshly what's dishonest. Producing luxury items isn't dishonest, but enabling adultery and fornication is (think Ashley Maddison). Wealth itself isn't a problem and shouldn't be treated as such.
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No.7760
>>7757
The psuedo-aristocratic mercentile elite generally undermine the authority of the government. The issue isn't about unearned wealth or thinking that inequality is internally bad just because.
>The problem isn't wealth. It can be political power being linked with wealth. It can be an unhealthy obsession with material things. It can be dishonest work being rewarding, although we shouldn't judge too harshly what's dishonest.
This is pretty much my position. I use the term psuedo-aristocratic to refer to the political power afforded them by their wealth. This power is difficult to regulate since it's not an official part of the political process, which is why you would set an ACTUAL aristocracy against it as a counterbalance. I agree that we shouldn't be hugely judgemental about business practices, but international corporations undercutting native workers by outsourcing production isn't a good thing.
TL;DR it's not about fuck rich people, it's about mitigating the undue political power they have from being rich
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No.8143
>>6364
There was an Anarchist who talked about how Moses was the first Marxist-Leninist.
Moses was Pharaoh's son (adopted).
So that's kinda why I think it turned out that way with Cults of Personality.
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No.8144
>>8143
It's also worth noting that Lenin was sent to Russia via the German Empire.
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No.8145
>>8144
That was obviously a mistake made in the desperation of WW1.
>>951
A monarch isn’t just a dictator. A dictator like Stalin had no legitimacy. Communism furthermore had no legitimacy. Life was far better under Nicholas II for the lower classes of Russia than it was under Soviet rule.
>>7757
A monarchs main enemies historically have been powerful, scheming nobles and plutocrats. The lower classes supported the monarch in Russian history because he could stand up to the power of nobles and oligarchy. Therefore we could say the crown and the lower classes are aligned in their interests in many cases.
Having said that, I agree this idea of a leftist monarch is utterly ridiculous. There were a few left leaning monarchs like Peter ‘the Great’, Catherine ‘the Great’, Napoleon to name a few, but they were terrible not to be emulated. The whole point of a monarch is that he is to be impartial and against revolutionary ideologies. Napoleon was too influenced by the French Revolution and now the monarchy in France is gone. Catherine was a harlot who murdered her husband and hated the Russian Orthodox Church. Peter was an occultist who tried to “modernise” Russia.
The left has made their peace with capitalism anyway. Most of these leftypol people aren’t even working class, it’s just trolling or larping. They care about legalising sodomy and wamens rights and the miscegenation agenda. Just felt like ranting.
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No.8157
>>8145
How was Napoleon bad?
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No.8160
>>8145
>A dictator like Stalin had no legitimacy.
Forgive my question since I'm a bit of a newfag (I browse from time-to-time but not much), but how is legitimacy established, through God or something? How is it known when a monarch has been made legitimate? How do they become legitimized in the first place? I favor a sort of meritocratic monarchy personal where the most qualified person in the nation (in terms of intelligence, virtue, public service, leadership abilities, etc) is selected through some sort of screening process, where he then rules for life. A monarchy of sorts, but not hereditary. Could this ever be legitimate?
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No.8168
>>8157
Monarchists who hate Napoleon are generally massive autistists with no understanding of the fact that all monarchies where ultimately established through action, as Napoleon did.
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No.8170
>>8157
>>8168
I don't dislike Napoleon for not being a Bourbon or something. The issue is deeper. He was too influenced by the French Revolution and sought to impose this ideology on the rest of Europe.
>>8160
Seeking power is a character flaw and that is why monarchy is superior. The very man who doesn't want power is the one who is right to rule.
A republic is basically the oligarchs collaborating together and because they have no right to rule they must control through deception. When the Medici banking clan took over Italy, they kept all the trappings of republicanism but ran everything themselves as a tyrannical oligarchy. Oligarchy fears being exposed as oligarchy because it has no legitimacy. A king is not afraid of being seen as a king and he does not hide it. He is adorned with the symbols of the nation or nations he rules.
Stalin was a political opportunist who worked his way up the communist criminal ladder to the top by deception and murder. A schemer has no legitimacy.
Yes, that legitimacy comes from God, from being an enforcer of natural law (God's law).
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No.8171
>>8170
>Yes, that legitimacy comes from God, from being an enforcer of natural law (God's law).
Interestingly enough, the ancient Aryans in India had an extremely similar conception of kingship. They must be onto something. Thanks for answering my question, you cleared some things up.
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No.8174
>>8170
>Seeking power is a character flaw and that is why monarchy is superior. The very man who doesn't want power is the one who is right to rule.
By that logic, kings who advocated absolute monarchy shouldn't have been trusted.
>Yes, that legitimacy comes from God, from being an enforcer of natural law (God's law).
You can't enforce morality, and it's generally counterproductive to try.
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No.8175
>>8174
>You can't enforce morality, and it's generally counterproductive to try.
I guess we shouldn't have any laws then since we can't stop people from breaking the law. Read the Laws of Manu and see that punishment and force are the ways that Natural Law is enforced on Earth
<Punishment alone governs all created beings, punishment alone protects them, punishment watches over them while they sleep; the wise declare punishment (to be identical with) the law.
<If (punishment) is properly inflicted after (due) consideration, it makes all people happy; but inflicted without consideration, it destroys everything.
<[…]The whole world is kept in order by punishment, for a guiltless man is hard to find; through fear of punishment the whole world yields the enjoyments (which it owes).
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No.8176
>>8175
You can stop attacking that strawman. There's a difference between a set of laws designed to protect people and a set of laws designed for blanket enforcement of morality. Also, order is not morality. People not doing bad things because they're afraid isn't morality. Moral people don't do immoral things regardless of any punishment or lack thereof. The only way to make people moral is to convince them.
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No.8179
>>8176
>Moral people don't do immoral things regardless of any punishment or lack thereof.
Moral people are hard to come by, especially nowadays. I didn't quote it, but the text I quoted from says the same thing. You can try your 'morality by persuasion' method, but it won't get you anywhere. Morality and right standards are exemplified to the people by virtuous rulers and codified into law. As Mo Tzu said, rulers should punish bad behavior and reward good behavior.
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No.8182
>>8174
>absolute monarchy
"Absolute monarchy" is another misleading label liberals like to apply to strong monarchs. No monarch has ever been all powerful like this term implies.
>You can't enforce morality, and it's generally counterproductive to try.
*sigh* smh… lolbergs
Of course you can and must enforce morality. A good parent for example must. Perhaps it won't work, but it is the parent's duty in the eyes of God to try. That is also a Christian monarch's job: to be an example of piety and morality for his subjects. To be a sort of father figure for everyone.
Modern society is not in decline from having too many moralists but from having too few. Even some atheists are coming to understand this.
Widespread subjugation of man to his passions leads to tyranny every single time. It's tyranny of the passions.
The first classical liberal was the devil and the first monarchist was God.
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No.8200
>>8179
People who aren't free to do some wrong can't grow. A nation of infants is weak.
>>8182
I've seen plenty of monarchists who fully support the idea of absolute monarchy.
I'm not a libertarian, and a king's relationship to his people should not be that of a father to his son. Men must grow up and leave their father's house. To have that kind of relationship with the king for your entire life is infantilising. Yes, kings should lead by example. That does not mean, however, that it should be illegal to ever do something immoral. The state's role is to protect its people. Morality goes far beyond that. That must be addressed through means other than force. A man with no agency cannot be moral, cannot experience moral growth. It is not moral to do no evil simply out of fear of punishment.
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No.8204
>>8200
>People who aren't free to do some wrong can't grow. A nation of infants is weak.
Creating a nation of infants is what happens when you don't discipline and punish them. Trying raising children and never punishing them
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No.8205
>>8204
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any laws.
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No.8206
>>8200
>>8182
>I've seen plenty of monarchists who fully support the idea of absolute monarchy.
Between you two, I openly embrace the term. It's always the people who dislike the absolutism in general that want to drop the word.
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No.8207
>>8200
>I'm not a libertarian, and a king's relationship to his people should not be that of a father to his son. Men must grow up and leave their father's house.
Like father, like son; it is a great way to view the relationship between a monarch and his people. Tsar Nicholas II was called a 'father' to his people and it has always been an honorable title. What is royal is bound up in the nature of a father/son relationship.
>at kind of relationship with the king for your entire life is infantilising. Yes, kings should lead by example. That does not mean, however, that it should be illegal to ever do something immoral. The state's role is to protect its people. Morality goes far beyond that.
I'm not a huge moralfag, so don't look at me.
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No.8210
>>8200
>absolute monarchy
This is a whole other thread in itself, but “absolute monarchy” is a deceptive term that gives the impression a monarch could ever be all powerful in the way liberals are always squealing about. It is a liberal false term and I reject it completely.
I personally am for the style of monarchy practiced by Ivan IV of Russia.
>not comparable to father/children relationship
The nuclear family is a gross,
DECADENT
imitation of the patriarchal clan. The idea that you should cut your mother and father off from giving you advice or assistance after age 18 or 21 because muh Murican dream is
MORONIC
and not how families lived before the modern era.
The very fact that “you must live in your parents basement” is a popular American insult shows how retarded social conditioning makes the NPC. In the past ALMOST EVERYONE lived with their parents and extended family, often under one roof. But ya can’t have that goyim, gotta feed our real estate industry. Gotta keep the American economy afloat somehow. Gotta get these stupid kids on a subprime mortgage.
A child has to grow up and become an adult, but you should never stop going to your family for counsel.
What you seem to want is a world in which everyone is born alone, somehow magically survives alone, and becomes a fully rational and moral adult. I’m sorry friend, that world isn’t ours.
We don’t live in a world of atomised individuals. To say the individual is the foundation of anything is self contradicting. You’re using language you do don’t create. Terms and phrases you didn’t invent. Ideas you didn’t invent.
A monarch is like the patriarch of an extended family - his subjects. In the Bible, God is compared to a father and a king. Ideally speaking he shouldn’t be commanding them what to do but simply reminding them of their duty to their conscience.
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No.8211
>>8200
I’m sick of this pedantic liberal argument “having law and order infantilises everyone”. That is a classical liberal argument.
If your father treats you as a physical adult like a toddler still then there’s something fucked up about your family and I have no desire to know what.
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No.8579
>>8145
>Life was far better under Nicholas II for the lower classes of Russia than it was under Soviet rule.
Extremely hot take. It's objectively wrong though, especially looking at the entire post-WW2 era of the USSR which saw the best living conditions Russia has ever known, although many progressive developments were already enacted under Lenin and Stalin as well. The economy of the USSR was also the 2nd fastest growing one of the 20th century.
> I agree this idea of a leftist monarch is utterly ridiculous. […] The whole point of a monarch is that he is to be impartial and against revolutionary ideologies.
With this I agree 100% (apart from the "impartial"), it's the main reason why monarchs and aristocrats always fulfill a reactionary role and should be overthrown.
>The left has made their peace with capitalism anyway. Most of these leftypol people aren’t even working class
Yes the state of the left is far from optimal, but do you honestly think /leftypol/ is representative for "the left" lol?
>>8170
>that legitimacy comes from God, from being an enforcer of natural law (God's law).
There is no scientific base for "natural law" or "God's law" and hence it has no legitimacy. Historically, monarchs were not somehow appointed by God, but simply rose to the economic top class by amassing wealth on the back of the laboring classes. This is true from the pharaohs to the European royal houses to the modern-day Saudi or Thai king. Without his economic power the monarch also loses his political legitimacy.
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No.8583
>>8579
>Yes the state of the left is far from optimal, but do you honestly think /leftypol/ is representative for "the left" lol?
Yes, you have to go back.
>>>/leftypol/
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No.8584
>>8579
bruh you're not welcome here
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No.8586
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No.8587
>>8586
RRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
GET THEE OUT OF MY BOARD, DIALECTICAL MATERIALIST
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No.8588
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No.8589
>>8588
NO, YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP, ANTI-IMPERIALIST
YOU WILL BE HANGED, DRAWN, AND QUARTERED
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No.8590
Much wrong with the world as it is is thanks to the idealogical plague unleashed by the French Revolution, which in turn was basis for the nightmare loosed by Red October. Why on Earth would we look on any of you charitably? Especially when you have no desire to admit your guilt in these events beyond "W-well it's not perfect," and go on insisting that your flimsy ways are those of the future. They're not even new: every half-bit peasant revolt wanted to seize wealth and property that wasn't theirs ad nauseum. It's also a hideous bastardization of Christianity, especially when you get into the Cosmist beliefs of governmental responsibility to resurrect everyone.
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No.8621
>>8588
>One type of globalist accusing others of being a different type of globalist
Begone.
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No.8625
>>8588
>a Belgian worshipping African communists.
Shut the fudge up modernist. The Belgian crown should jail you for such insolence.
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No.8640
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No.8641
>>8579
If you don’t believe in God, you have nihilism and absurdism.
Like capitalism, socialism reduces a man to an animal - a disposable cog in the machine of society with no dignity.
Your knowledge of Russian history is beyond pathetic. Yes, the economy advanced by leaps and bounds but only by rivers of blood. Ever heard of the Holomodor? The Soviet Union banned workers unions so it’s a complete fraud anyways. Tsarist Russia was feeding the world. The Soviet Union was starving and required constant western food aid. It’s just another banker Jew empire.
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No.8647
>>950
By necking yourself you communist scumbag
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No.8650
>>8579
>muh scientific basis
Science is not incompatible with religion and thinking so is the pinnacle of bluepilldom. I will never be able to understand why atheist retards think the universe just exists or doesn't need to be explained.
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No.8657
>>950
OP's post is proof a majority of extreme leftists are LARPers and not to be feared
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