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/lit/ - Literature

Discussion of Literature
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 No.13252>>13255 >>13348 [Watch Thread][Show All Posts]

When does something become considered high literature? Who decides this and what are the qualifications?

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 No.13254

High literature:

>the works everyone wants to have read for bragging rights but can't be arsed to

Literature:

>the works some have read for bragging rights

Pulp shit and pop-science garbage:

>the works people commonly read and sometimes even enjoy

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 No.13255>>13256

>>13252 (OP)

>When does something become considered high literature? Who decides this and what are the qualifications?

i assume critics and teachers.

the criteria? the time elapsed from the death of the author and bragging rights.

also related:

We visited the picture-galleries and the other regulation "sights"

of Milan--not because I wanted to write about them again, but to see if I had learned anything in twelve years. I afterward visited the great galleries of Rome and Florence for the same purpose. I found I had learned one thing. When I wrote about the Old Masters before, I said the copies were better than the originals. That was a mistake of large dimensions. The Old Masters were still unpleasing to me, but they were truly divine contrasted with the copies. The copy is to the original as the pallid, smart, inane new wax-work group is to the vigorous, earnest, dignified group of living men and women whom it professes to duplicate. There is a mellow richness, a subdued color, in the old pictures, which is to the eye what muffled and mellowed sound is to the ear. That is the merit which is most loudly praised in the old picture, and is the one which the copy most conspicuously lacks, and which the copyist must not hope to compass. It was generally conceded by the artists with whom I talked, that that subdued splendor, that mellow richness, is imparted to the picture by AGE. Then why should we worship the Old Master for it, who didn't impart it, instead of worshiping Old Time, who did? Perhaps the picture was a clanging bell, until Time muffled it and sweetened it.

In conversation with an artist in Venice, I asked: "What is it that people see in the Old Masters? I have been in the Doge's palace and I saw several acres of very bad drawing, very bad perspective, and very incorrect proportions. Paul Veronese's dogs to not resemble dogs; all the horses look like bladders on legs; one man had a RIGHT leg on the left side of his body; in the large picture where the Emperor (Barbarossa?) is prostrate before the Pope, there are three men in the foreground who are over thirty feet high, if one may judge by the size of a kneeling little boy in the center of the foreground; and according to the same scale, the Pope is seven feet high and the Doge is a shriveled dwarf of four feet."

The artist said:

"Yes, the Old Masters often drew badly; they did not care much for truth and exactness in minor details; but after all, in spite of bad drawing, bad perspective, bad proportions, and a choice of subjects which no longer appeal to people as strongly as they did three hundred years ago, there is a SOMETHING about their pictures which is divine--a something which is above and beyond the art of any epoch since–a something which would be the despair of artists but that they never hope or expect to attain it, and therefore do not worry about it."

That is what he said--and he said what he believed; and not only believed, but felt.

Reasoning--especially reasoning, without technical knowledge–must be put aside, in cases of this kind. It cannot assist the inquirer. It will lead him, in the most logical progression, to what, in the eyes of artists, would be a most illogical conclusion. Thus: bad drawing, bad proportion, bad perspective, indifference to truthful detail, color which gets its merit from time, and not from the artist–these things constitute the Old Master; conclusion, the Old Master was a bad painter, the Old Master was not an Old Master at all, but an Old Apprentice. Your friend the artist will grant your premises, but deny your conclusion; he will maintain that notwithstanding this formidable list of confessed defects, there is still a something that is divine and unapproachable about the Old Master, and that there is no arguing the fact away by any system of reasoning whatsoever.

I can believe that. There are women who have an indefinable charm in their faces which makes them beautiful to their intimates, but a cold stranger who tried to reason the matter out and find this beauty would fail. He would say to one of these women: This chin is too short, this nose is too long, this forehead is too high, this hair is too red, this complexion is too pallid, the perspective of the entire composition is incorrect; conclusion, the woman is not beautiful. But her nearest friend might say, and say truly, "Your premises are right, your logic is faultless, but your conclusion is wrong, nevertheless; she is an Old Master--she is beautiful, but only to such as know her; it is a beauty which cannot be formulated, but it is there, just the same."

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 No.13256

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 No.13260>>13269

I expect most answers will be cynical and sociological: "high literature is anything X sphere of society decides for Y reasons".

To me "high literature" is anything that manages to be both contrary to common sense and seductive. If it's just one or the other it's boring or repulsive, respectively. If a wok just regurgitates liberal or conservative values it's as boring as an average article in MSM; if it just aims to be outraged at the status quo it's as repulsive and autistic as SJWs. Most works are like that.

It's like the people you fall in love with: they are both radically other and attractive. It doesn't work if they're too similar or transparent.

So I find high literature is mostly made of great aphorists.

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 No.13261

High literature is used interchangeably with high culture, books that have these accolades are usually only readable by those who pursue the arts and barely understandable to those who don't. High literature is the kind of thing that references many other works, ideas, or pieces of art and uses a variety of languages or contrasting styles unhesitatingly. They usually have some sort of meta element in which a high knowledge of art and culture is required to fully comprehend or deduct all the writers messages. They are not targeted towards a more broad and common audience but rather picked up in cult like statuses across literary circles and trends.

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 No.13269

>>13260

i'm attracted by completely different kinds of things and people.

but i can see your point, and of course among the books i've read are the ones that took me by surprise in a way or the other are certainly the most memorable.

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 No.13290

When the number of pretentious graduate theses are written on it hits a critical threshold.

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 No.13295>>13297

Timelessness.

1. Doesn't require cultural context outside of the work itself, or requires absolutely minimal experience/context.

2. Reflects eternal truths/archetypes

3. Word and grammar choice reflects the art, working knowledge of the English language to concisely and impactfully convey meaning rather than simply appeal to a mass/target audience

4. The plot and character arcs are considered and planned, not shoehorned in any way to fit the writer's intentions (nothing is forced)

Lord of the Rings is an excellent example of high literature.

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 No.13297>>13304

>>13295

>Lord of the Rings is an excellent example of high literature.

i bet some critics would disagree with you.

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 No.13304

>>13297

You could find critics that disagree with you about ever damn thing in this planet. There is, for example, no lack of critics that claim the world is flat. Lords of the Rings is Literature.

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 No.13348>>13380

>>13252 (OP)

when all the assholes in the room nod in agreement

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 No.13380

>>13348

Probably best answer in thread :)

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