No.10722 [View All]
I've been watching sex and the city with my GF, and besides of being awful, I've tracked some major tropes that, I think, are present in almost every piece of fiction written by and for women. I've seen it anywhere from the hunger games to like water for chocolate.
So… my question: How do you write for women? I want to write a book, maybe chick-lit tier, and see if I can dupe a publisher into thinking I'm a chick.
ITT enumerate the themes, tropes, treatments, tones and everything that a woman would do when writing for women. So far, I've found these general approximations:
1. The main conflict -almost always- is between structured security vs. chaotic security. More often than not this thing boils down to a romantic competition. Choosing between the player or the sweet responsible guy. Or some such variation of the same theme.
2. The relationship between the principal (female) character and secondary (female) characters is one of veiled competition. Women hate even their closest friends.
3. Dresses and hairdos and such stuff become important. A dress can become a plot point. Yes, even in serious literature.
4. Feeling are everything.
____________________________
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No.10786
>>10785
>>10785
>All of these are absent in Bond and Bourne
maybe it's unrelated but, they do very little for me. you can add the mission impossible series to that bunch while we're at it.
the only, maybe, kind of movie like that coming to mind, that i really really like is commando, because it's so much fun.
>>10785
>The necessity of the second part is correlated to the mundanity of the first. Bragging about stealing the moon requires you to act like it's nothing, but bragging about your new shirt requires acting like the king of the world.
true, but what if it's what your listener wants to listen.
self delusion is a very powerful agent, on men and women.
you're right when you say that as a statement is not much. but just look at all those movies with extremely predictable plot, sometimes extremely predictable lines.
don't you think that the reason people goes to see them is because they really just want more of the same?
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No.10792
>>10786
>true, but what if it's what your listener wants to listen
I don't think anyone will be impressed by a new shirt or uniqueness. Besides, the purpose of the technique to minimize the chance someone takes you seriously.
>extremely predictable plot, sometimes extremely predictable lines
and also good scenes: the Dubai tower scene in Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol, the tank scene in The A Team movie, the plane scene, the final battle in Equilibrium
>don't you think that the reason people goes to see them is because they really just want more of the same?
Nah, it doesn't mean anything if someone watches a bad movie. I doubt many will watch more than one capeshit, for example.
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No.10793
>>10777
This too
If you want to sell
write stupid fucking shit
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No.10799
>>10792
i was referring more about the dynamic and structrure of a story rather than actual quality.
you can follow a formula and still fail miserably.
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No.10810
>>10799
While the arrangement of scenes is important, most of the books I read that fail have no memorable moments at all.
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No.10833
>>10810
i guess i agree, in that i think that something truly original is very very hard to come by and that the secret to the good stuff lays in execution rather than what, after summarization, is no different in form and purpose to an inferior work.
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No.10843
>>10833
I cited those specific scenes because they are original. They don't contain original ideas in the sense of ideas vs execution, but rather they contain original ideas.
I think the better you understand compliments, the better you will both pick the best idea and carry it out.
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No.10927
>>10722
The girl is entirely wrapped up in her own problems. Her relationships, especially of the romantic variety, are the most important things in the world. This had to be played straight.
The protagonist should love a man and be uncertain if he loves her in return. His attitude toward her has to be ambivalent. At first she finds him infuriating, then she can't stop thinking about him, then suddenly she's anxious about what he thinks of her.
It tears her up inside. It's anguish for her. You don't have to go on for pages upon pages about this, but it has to be present, it has to be played straight, her depression, or anxiety over it is shown as being the worst thing in the world, not state explicitly as such, but by her actions, with the implicit understanding that she's a sympathetic character and her responses to her situation are proper and make sense.
Also, a second love interest never hurts. He can be Mr. Security to the first one's Mr. Bad, OR he can be another Mr. Bad, just of a different flavor. Maybe a little more or less wild than the other alpha male she's attracted to.
Give her a cat, a closet full of shoes, and describe the food she eats in delicious detail. Make her frustrated with her job, show her boss or someone else reprimanding her from her objective failings, and have her spin it as him just being an asshole (even though he's right), have her go out and mock the guy, making jokes about him with her friends while they all get drunk together. She goes shopping with her friends to cheer her up, list inventories of all the shiny clothes and other things they buy.
She should express anxiety about her weight, with her friends giving her moral support and telling her she's great. Some guy should say something innocuous that she interprets as being sexist - don't do this constantly, once or twice is enough. There should be something she's always wanted to do - like speak French, or learn to dance - but never actually put in the effort and just prefers to sigh wistfully about it, like it's somehow forever out of reach - until the man she falls in love with starts teaching her how to do it.
In the end she gets together with the guy, it's portrayed as a happily-ever-after thing, the entire universe is suddenly sunshine and rainbows because she got the man she wanted, her feelings are the most important thing in the universe and should be portrayed as such.
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No.10929
>>10927
so tsundere, anon-kun.
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No.10935
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No.11073
>>10927
That's the general formula, yeah. I'd hate to say that's how one would write for women in general though. Because that's like saying one should write as generic a harem anime as possible for males.
A portrayal of self importance as a given is a majorly valued trait though. The world doesn't necessarily have to revolve around the girl, but the story definitely should.
Internal, emotional conflict must be given value over logical. As logic and rationality in conflict is seen as cold and inhumane, thus only desirable for an antagonist.
In male oriented stories it's usually morals or justice rather than emotion itself. But still quite similar. It's humane and realistically serves to drive the plot.
I must also point out that in your plot, she doesn't really want to learn French or to dance. But rather wants the experience of being taught by a person she could use them with. There's no motivation to learn such things in a school or self study setting, especially given the prospect of using it as motivation to chose a mate.
Which is a realistic truth, really. It's far easier to learn and be motivated to learn, in the context of use. And using that potential use as a motivation for a choice to learn is also valid.
>>10782
>Sexism in the publishing world is unfortunately still very much a thing, with female authors often not getting the respect […]
Now this is my own rant on a word, so feel free to ignore it. But I always stop right there anytime 'respect' is used in such a context. Even in the middle of a book, if it's given importance or attention.
To respect is to hold higher than others. Not to be shown value, equality, manners, or be given appropriate treatment at all. Just to be held higher, thus treated better.
Treating woman authors better simply for being female is quite in line with the very definition of sexism.
It may be appropriate to treat them better for an audience assumed to be majorly female, for reader sympathy's sake. Much like it's appropriate to treat advice from elder's better due to experience or wisdom implied.
But as is stated, I do believe most of the things that are dismissed are things like those.
Many, many authors are dismissed of serious consideration regardless of gender. The 'struggling writer' has become quite memetic for a reason. Publishing is difficult for risk:effort:reward.
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No.11077
>>11073
>. Because that's like saying one should write as generic a harem anime as possible for males.
but that doesn't even compare in terms of popularity with the male audience, with the popularity of stuff that follow >>10927 with the female audience.
but i guess you could say that stuff like shounen mangas can be just as formulaic.
>>11073
>Treating woman authors better simply for being female is quite in line with the very definition of sexism.
really? i call it…
SMASHING THE PATRIARCHY!™.
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No.11096
>>11073
>Treating woman authors better simply for being female is quite in line with the very definition of sexism.
What a very niggardly attitude
This is NOT what anon >>10782 said or was quoting.
If one hundred men publish novels, and one hundred women do, yet only ten of the men get accolades and awards, you've either got to assert and justify the claim that women are shit writers, or it is sexism.
I, for one, welcome our alien overlords, but I also reckon there is sexism. Rowling was told to publish her shit not as "Joanne" but as "J.K." to hide her feminine name. That said, publishing is a fuck-ass game: her novel published under a man's name won all the fedora-tipping reviewers could give it, but it sold for shit until it leaked she was that dude. So, you're right here:
>Many, many authors are dismissed of serious consideration regardless of gender.
But, that said, romance novels are shit, cannot be considered anything more than heart-porn for women, and should die in a raging fire. But, that's just a man talking.
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No.11385
>>10722
If you mean as a character in your writing: Just write a male but remove anything interesting about them.
If you mean what women want in writing: Make sure it's comfortable and doesn't challenge any notions about the world they might have.
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No.11455
>>11385
this hurts me in the heart anon.
I curse you and thank you in the same breath.
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No.12268
>>10728
Women are incredibly narcissistic and attention-seeking. Part of why rape fantasies are so common is because women fantasize about being SO attractive to a man that he absolutely cannot resist her charms and HAS to have her then and there.
So yes, a man being obsessed with a single woman over all others is the female equivalent of the man's "you are the chosen hero of destiny". Rather telling, isn't it. Men fantasize about being divinely chosen to perform heroic acts on behalf of others, women fantasize about being more desirable to men than every other woman.
They're shallow, narcissistic, and, if we couldn't fuck them, uninteresting. Hence, why books like Twilight and 50 Shades (which started as Twilight fanfiction; no, seriously) are so damn popular with women. The main female is shallow and uninteresting, and a man becomes obsessed over her and claims she's special and different from all the other women, despite the fact that she is super generic and dull.
There. That's how you write for women.
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No.12269
>>10746
>women read more stories with ordinary settings and scenarios
>I've got no clue why women don't read as much sci-fi. Really, not a fucking clue. But they should.
>This two things are the same. It would be great if we knew why is that the case.
As a general rule, women are not especially burdened by imagination and prefer to live out their fantasies in a more limited box than men.
There's a reason you've never heard of a female philosopher, very few great female artists or authors, etc. Men will devote their lives to imagining entirely new worlds; women will devote their lives to imaging how many rich, attractive men they could attract if they had that new dress and cute pair of shoes…
Thus, women's fantasies are much tamer and more limited than men's. Again, they are essentially shallow, narcissistic, and uninteresting, and therefore their imaginations follow suit.
>>10747
Again, a fundamental difference in male and female psychology. A man thinks "I could be special if I worked at it really, really hard"; a woman thinks "wouldn't it be cool if everything was just handed to me and everyone acknowledged me as special and awesome?"
Similarly, men don't get offended at how 'unrealistic' the buff, muscle-bound heroes in comics are or their skintight uniforms, because deep down they all fantasize about becoming just as manly by working out and eating right. Women get pissy over big-tittied female superheroes in revealing outfits partly because they don't have the looks to be that attractive, and partly because they're lazy and think everything should be given to them, so they're not going to work out and put in the effort to become that attractive like a man would. This ties in to the fatalism and general acceptance of status quo others have noted within female-oriented fiction; men can become just like their heroes if they try hard enough, whereas women are either born with it or not.
>>10781
Men wield power directly. Women are indirect at best, and if they wield power at all it's by manipulating a man with that power. Most women seem more concerned with flaunting to other women how they can attract a powerful man, rather than being powerful themselves.
Which again ties into their laziness and wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter: a female CEO has to claw her way to the top through years of hard effort, then work hard to maintain her prestigious and powerful position. A woman who marries a CEO enjoys the benefits of his position, while expending none of the effort involved in achieving that position.
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No.12273
>>12268
>>12269
the first and the last two posts are mine.
thank your for replying and adding your opinions.
btw women of /lit/ i think i must put it clearly that i don't think you're useless, intrisically incapable of greatness or meant just to have children and stay in the kitchen.
i just think that you're supposed to be the other side of the coin. take it as you will.
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No.12310
>>10927
Damn anon, that's dead on.
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No.12329
>>10772
I almost want to try my hand at this – write Fifty Shades/Twilight-esque novel and see if it actually could get any readers, and to see if I could break away from my usual genres.
I’m not sure I could pull off writing a heterosexual romance from the POV of a woman though…
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No.12332
>>12329
try it.
what's the worse that could happen to you?
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No.12359
>>12332
Mental dissonance leading to gender dysphoria after anon finds he likes thinking about taking dicks?
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No.12372
>>12332
Well, worst case scenario I've just wasted my time writing some schlock that no one will read.
>>12359
Joke's on you, I already like traps!
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No.12380
>>12372
>>12372
>>12372
>Joke's on you, I already like traps!
why not simply say "i'm gay"?
just because it looks like a woman…
but seriously, write a book about that.
maybe you can have some critic praising it for the "bravery" of it.
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No.12382
>>12380
>why not simply say "i'm gay"?
Look up the Ogi Ogas & Sai Gaddam vids on YT if you want to know why.
A trap protagonist could work, but I think that if the book is to appeal to as many women as possible, the protagonist must be someone they can easily identify with – a blank slate they can imagine being themselves. Having the main character be a trap will likely alienate a lot of potential female readers.
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No.12386
>>12382
You should write the story about a trap main character, but never explicitly state anything that shows >she has a dick. You know, because he just like any other woman and saying otherwise is transphobic and propably bigoted too.
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No.12394
>>10733
> Mr. Big (Structured) & Aidan Shaw (Chaotic)
if you are talking about the series it's the other way around.
not that it matters…
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No.12395
>>12386
you could keep the surprise for the end of the book.
or even better, retcon it later like j.k. rowling…
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No.12396
>>12395
Bonus points for involving actual sex scenes that have vague enough prose to obfuscate that fudge packing is happening.
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No.12399
>>12396
That’d be easy enough, just stick to blowjobs & handjobs.
I can’t write sex scenes I find hot to begin with, so writing sex scenes for women would be even harder…
>>12386
Whatever brings in the green… I’m not above aiming for a Tumblr audience. It might be fun to drop a few, sweetened redpills into the mix as well – nothing too obvious of course.
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No.12400
>>12399
>so writing sex scenes for women would be even harder…
just do some research and pick an harlequin novel or two, they're very short and with a large font. it won't take you long.
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No.12412
"Think of a man, and take away reason and accountability."
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No.12414
>>12400
I’ll look up what the most common sex fantasies for women are, and see if I can’t put any of that info to good use. Fifty Shades of Grey featured bondage/domination, why not go a few steps further and explore the rape fantasy? If nothing else, it could garner some free publicity for ‘daring to explore’ such a taboo side of female sexual fantasies.
>>12412
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No.12423
>>12414
>explore the rape fantasy?
i'm pretty sure that it's already featured in plenty of romance novels, not just in the form of rape, but in the form of the absurdly handsome olympian athlete vampire billionaire that just cannot contain his burning desire for you and keep his hands off your body.
and unless you have notapenis i don't reccomend you to "explore" such a thing.
it could really have very adverse consequences for you.
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No.12426
>>10722
can you please not use the word "tropes"
Can you please say "motifs" instead
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No.12427
>>12426
Anon, I'm language police.
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No.12433
>>10722
The unobtainability of Chad.
The inadequacy preventing one from being Chad's Stacy
The power tripping of Chadding lower status males as their Stacy
Treating pets as surrogate children, and sometimes as dildos
Increasing dread of periods as one approaches and eclipses 30yo and childless
Being alcoholic with the physiological disadvantages of lower muscle mass and smaller bladder
Having to wage proxy wars constantly on an individual and group basis with other women; hating oneself and other women resulting therefrom
Close association of same sex envy and arousal
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No.12434
>>12426
But a motif is something completely different. I think it's ok to say tropes here because we're not separating them from their intent.
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No.13752
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No.13935
>>12269
On the topic of female philosophers this is true, besides surface level political philosophy I've never heard of one. In fact I just woke up so I cannot even begin to ponder if one has existed. Hannah Arendt maybe?
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No.13936
Also on the topic of sci-fi, pretty sure a few of the Warhammer writers were women
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No.13938
>>13936
>Asimovian polemics
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No.14117
>>10782
>women read more
Maybe in the anglosphere.
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No.14138
>>12310
Knowing that the vomit is shooped, what's really disturbing about that pic is that the duck is just screaming at the ground for no apparent reason
>>12433
>Treating pets as surrogate children, and sometimes as dildos
Oh, you better believe I fucking lol'd
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No.14148
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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No.14172
your post is so pretentious, but good god I truly fucking hate women. My hatred for women was flared up so intesnely reading your post it distracted me from your gross pretension
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No.14174
>1. The main conflict -almost always- is between structured security vs. chaotic security. More often than not this thing boils down to a romantic competition. Choosing between the player or the sweet responsible guy. Or some such variation of the same theme.
>2. The relationship between the principal (female) character and secondary (female) characters is one of veiled competition. Women hate even their closest friends.
>3. Dresses and hairdos and such stuff become important. A dress can become a plot point. Yes, even in serious literature.
>4. Feeling are everything.
Literally pic related. Scarlett is so much smarter and more fashionable than literally every other woman in the world and all men are stupid idiots and all want to bone Scarlett. The only man in the world who's good enough for Scarlett is a nice guy and he's madly in love with her but for some reason marries his obviously inferior cousin instead. So Scarlett marries some beta and sets out on a lifelong quest to ruin dozens of lives just to spite the guy she actually likes. She's a selfish cunt and a neglectful mother but that's actually a good thing because she's sticking it to the evil sexist society. She spends half the book eloping with some bad boy smuggler and eventually takes him as her third husband, but because she's still lusting after the nice guy and being a horrible person the bad boy starts to whither away and die on the inside until eventually he just fucks off and tells her she can fuck the nice guy if she wants because he's literally incapable of giving a fuck anymore. Of course at this point Scarlett realizes she actually loved the bad boy all along and begs him to love her again, but his life has already been ruined by her so he leaves her all alone to wallow in her cuntery. The book ends with Scarlett plotting to manipulate her way out of this situation, and most likely ruin dozens more lives in the process. But that's totally a good thing.
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No.14192
>>10742
How does Orange is the New Black compare to OZ?
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No.14253
>>14174
How much of that is the female version of the Warlord or Capitalist that is willing to destroy everyone and everything in order to get what they want, but having attained what they desired, merely seek out more of what they cannot have?
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No.14327
>>12386
That could be a great troll novel idea. The entire book having never mentioned that she is a >she, with the final sex scene having a :"then he started sucking my dick". Could be funny.
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