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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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 No.96531

>mfw when serfs start muttering about property rights

 No.96554

>>>/monarchy/

I, too, like to come back to /liberty/ from time to time and see how things are going back here–at least there's less pedophilia discussion on the front page now.


 No.96679

>>96554

You can be free in a monarchy, even more so in retarded pseudo-socialism we live in now.


 No.96686

>>96679

I think it's commonly known that Monarchies have a plurality of possible benefits over democracies and republics. However, those benefits are the same benefits that could be enjoyed in a Tyranny (or Dictatorship, if you prefer). There is nothing special in Monarchy other than religious dress-up and advocating for loss of rights is universally stupid.


 No.96691

>>96531

Is it even possible to have a monarchy that doesn't advocate for a state?


 No.96694

>>96686

>There is nothing special in Monarchy

Compared to dictatorships, monarchies generally enjoy higher freedoms and more stability, due to hereditary succession (i.e. inheritance) lowering the ruler's time-preference and incentivizing him to be less heavy-handed in his rule.


 No.96698

>>96694

>when the child inheriting the throne is an idiot so someone overthrows him and the country devolves into civil war and constant coups


 No.96707

Besides "Democracy, The God that Failed" what other books should I read in regards to monarchy?


 No.96715

File: 94c0b708b850f4d⋯.png (3.56 MB, 2190x1990, 219:199, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.96721

>>96698

>what is regency

Nice bait. However, you bring up another point in monarchy's favor–the heir is trained from birth to be a ruler, and as such is well-prepared for the role once it is bequeathed to him, unlike democratic rulers whose only qualification is a popularity contest, and just make shit up as they go along.

>>96715

I like this list but it could do with more structure


 No.96727

>>96721

Absolute monarchs tend to decrease, not increase, liberty.


 No.96759

>>96698

This is why succession law is important.

>>96727

>>96691

Compared to what? Compared to ancap standards? Hell no.

But compared to Democracy? Sure they can be liberty focused. Ab-so-fucking-lutely.

In a Democracy, the people in charge HAVE TO WANT to have power. It's only in a monarchy that you have a chance of restraining the libido dominandi of the State.

>>96707

If you're a Hoppe-lover, I would HIGHLY recommend His Highness Hans Adams II's book. He practically makes out Liechtenstein to be ancap.

Number 2 to Erik von Keuhnelt's book on that list.


 No.96760

>>96759

>It's only in a monarchy that you have a chance of restraining the libido dominandi of the State.

Is there one example of a liberty minded monarchy?


 No.96761

>>96727

Every apples-to-apples comparison disagrees with you. Monarchies have consistently had lower tax rates and lower government spending rates than their democratic counterparts. Monarchical warfare consisted primarily of low-intensity border skirmishes, and bloodless siegecraft, whereas the democratic wars of the 20th century have consistently been extremely large-scale and bloody. Monarchical armies were seen as the private property of the monarch and warfare was seen as a private affair between two monarchs, and thus between their two armies, whereas democratic warfare frequently implicates innocent bystanders in the conflict, dismissed as collateral damage, because democratic wars take place between two nations and all of their people, rather than only between their heads of states. See Hoppe's book for more detailed examples.

>>96760

Liechtenstein, for starters, and still in existence to boot. In its final years, Imperial Russia had an extremely liberalized economy, and if around today would have scored in the top 20 on the Economic Freedom Index. Monarchical England was the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution.


 No.96768

>>96761

>Liechtenstein

Yeah I can see that, I think the smaller size helps perhaps.

>Imperial Russia

I agree with you on the economic liberalization, but didn't the Czar keep a heavy handed secret police.

We can point to other monarchies in the Middle East and Brunei and say that while they may offer benefits in terms of certain economic liberties, they definitely squash a fair number of other liberties. So the benefits of a monarchy almost appear cultural or even merely temporal.


 No.96769

>>96686

>those benefits are the same benefits that could be enjoyed in a Tyranny (or Dictatorship, if you prefer).

Tyrannies can't be stopped, whereas in monarchies you can revolt and kill a bad king. Dictatorships are too emphemoral, they last until the dictator dies.

>religious dress up

?????????????

>>96691

Sure, look up kingdoms where people were permitted and even encouraged to train in the art of war and keep themselves armed. State requires a MONOPOLY on force, which many kingdoms don't have.

In fact they're kind of like democracies, except people vote less often, and they vote with a sword. Putting their lives on the line for change.

>>96698

>when the child inheriting the throne is an idiot so someone overthrows him and the country devolves into civil war and constant coups

That happens once every 4 years in democracy.


 No.96773

>>96759

>This is why succession law is important.

Succession laws can be changed or ignored: such often happened in Britain.

>>96761

Given my (relative-at-least) ignorance on the matter, I'm not posting with certainty or boldness.

Nonetheless, when you post about monarchies—i.e. governments headed by a strong (i.e. lots of legal and political power, if not always strength in personality) ruler whose position is hereditary—you're posting about a lot of countries both past and present.

I wouldn't describe the Japanese Empire, China before the KMT, France under the Bourbons, England under Henry VIII (or under the Normans), or the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as particularly libertarian—in the case of the latter it's harder to tell who are less free: Saudi Arabians or Iranians (where, if I understand correctly, Christians—at least the Chaldeans—or whatever the traditional churches are—can make Communal wine).

Presumably the lower tax rates are courtesy of all state property being owned by the monarch. As for monarchal warfare, wasn't the Armenian genocide lead by a sultan? Not many democracies existed in Europe during the 30 Years War.

Also, I'm sure many of the soldiers were conscripts.

One might argue that the increase in casualties in democracies, or at least populist and/or nationalist states, or where the leader got power by violent overthrow—e.g. Communists and, to a lesser extent, Nazis (the SA from c. 1920 to 1933)—coincided with total war. Before, knights fought with swords. Guns put an end to it. Armies march on their stomachs—burn the crops. I understand that in the US Civil War, the CSA took a hit when one unit suffered not so much from Unionists killing their soldiers, but killing their mules so they couldn't cross a patch of desert and simply had to give up whatever mission they were on.

There is also the question of how a monarchy would be established. The examples of Napoleon, Alexander "the Great," and "Emperor" Bokassa (or whatever was the president of the CAR) don't offer hope.

Liechtenstein is a tiny little country that has, yes, escaped a lot of the carnage of European history of the past 100 years (though the same could be said of Switzerland and post-Civil War Ireland—at least the R.O.I.). It is as a country where a citizen could more easily shake hands with his/her prince than most Americans could their mayor. I wouldn't describe a country that—to my knowledge at least—still had serfs as having an "extremely liberalized economy" (no more than the CSA with its slaves). I think the Industrial Revolution happened a bit after Cromwell—and thus after the (de facto, at least) assertion of the supremacy of Parliament and all of that.

Lastly we have American Aborigines. Consider the Incans, Aztecs, Iroquois Confederacy, and Inuit. The first two, while not quite empires in the Eurasian sense of the words, were monarchal and all it took were a relative few bold conquistadors to subdue them. (Such might also to an extent explain the political situation of countries such as Mexico and Peru—again, my ignorance of this is vast.) Many Aboriginal groups in US and Canada still enjoy a fair amount of autonomy, if not quite officially then unofficially. Further north, the Inuit might still speak Inuktitut more than English.

Lastly, didn't I hear that democracies tend not to war with each other—at least the liberal ones.


 No.96774

A crown! What of it?

To bear the miseries of a people!

To hear their cries and holy writ,

And sink beneath the load of steeple!

For them every waking moment

And every noble dream a-sleep

Give them bones to honor, lament

Ever to blood a-living keep

On the king's gate the moss grew gray;

The king came not. They call'd him dead;

And made his eldest son, one day,

Slave in his father's stead.

>>96773

>Succession laws can be changed or ignored: such often happened in Britain.

And what, emphemeral non aggression principle can't?


 No.96775

>>96768

Heavy-handed in what way? The Okhrana had a fairly high degree of autonomy, but their budget was relatively small, and they operated abroad more than domestically. Further, their efforts were concentrated more on infiltrating and influencing dissident organizations; they didn't disappear people, they didn't send people to work camps, they had elaborate and somewhat unorthodox sting operations. Not exactly libertarian, but compared to the KGB, the Politburo, and the Stasi, they appear downright saintlike.

>We can point to other monarchies in the Middle East

Like I said before, you need to compare apples to apples. Middle-eastern monarchies are culturally Islamic, which for obvious reasons isn't exactly compatible with much of /liberty/ ideals. And the non-monarchical Islamic countries trample on an even greater number of liberties than the monarchies; compared to other ME countries the monarchical ones certainly fare better. Alternatively, you can look at what happened when we tried to "bring democracy" to the sandbox.


 No.96776

>>96761

Spain birthed the Salamanca School. Portugal and the rest of Europe pushed the idea of global trade to new heights during the age of the sail. The more you dig, the more you find. I would actually suggest Rothbard's History of Economic Thought regarding some positive developments that occurred w.r.t. liberty in France.

>>96768

>We can point to other monarchies in the Middle East and Brunei and say that while they may offer benefits in terms of certain economic liberties, they definitely squash a fair number of other liberties. So the benefits of a monarchy almost appear cultural or even merely temporal.

Compare their liberties to their neighbours, or what >>96775 said.

Also, you cast aside cultural benefits like that's nothing. Monarchy instills an anti-egalitarian counter-current, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's important. [[Erik von Keuhnelt intensifies]]

>>96773

>I wouldn't describe the Japanese Empire, China before the KMT, France under the Bourbons, England under Henry VIII (or under the Normans), or the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as particularly libertarian—in the case of the latter it's harder to tell who are less free: Saudi Arabians or Iranians (where, if I understand correctly, Christians—at least the Chaldeans—or whatever the traditional churches are—can make Communal wine).

Neither would I describe current-day Mexico, Argentina, France, South Africa, Egypt, etc., etc..–as particularly libertarian.

We're not comparing with utopia! The comparison is against contemporary and similar Democracies. Democracy can give rise to countries like Venezuela just as well as Monarchy can have empires like the Inca.

>Lastly, didn't I hear that democracies tend not to war with each other—at least the liberal ones.

There is a version like that, but there is another that has nothing to do with Democracy. Dell theory: any two countries with a sufficiently advanced supply chain will not want to do war with each other.


 No.96777

>>96774

Nice poem: ah the hardship of being an elitist.

"I was a free man in Paris

I felt unfettered and alive

There was nobody calling me up for favors

And no one's future to decide

You know I'd go back there tomorrow

But for the work I've taken on

Stoking the star-maker machinery

Behind the popular song"

JONI MITCHELL Free Man In Paris 1974 HQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhtxaULr-us

4,021 views

>And what, emphemeral non aggression principle can't?

Probably none, but most—likely almost all—succession rules aren't based on NAP.

>>96775

Good points, but pre-Soviet police didn't have the means of oppression that the Soviet/post-Soviet ones do.

As for work camps: what about Siberia?

To me Christianity and Islam are a bit like apples and pears—close enough. In the past 100 years more people were killed by nominal-at-least Christians than nominal-at-least Muslims. Mark Twain had his war Prayer.

Again, I'm not sure about your claim about monarchal-versus-non-monarchal Islamic countries. Saudi Arabia, perhaps the largest, most populated, and richest Islamic monarchy is a dictatorship: probably worse than its neighbour Yemen—which it's essentially warring against.

While Pakistan's birth was pretty violent, and some might describe it as a failed state, there are the pleasant surprises.

Pakistani version-of-sorts of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead:

Teesra Kinara old PTV Drama Part 01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksdK7Tl7xMU

51,975 views

and a cursory check here:

13 Pakistani Rock And Metal Albums That You Should Definitely Listen To

https://www.mangobaaz.com/rock-and-metal-albums-from-pakistan

YouTube vids embedded—the first two seem decently enough.


 No.96780

>>96776

Didn't Spain and Portugal claim a monopoly—or "bi-opoly"—on the African slave trade?

>Monarchy instills an anti-egalitarian counter-current,

particularly in human rights: the monarch is the shepherd, the subjects are the sheep.

>Neither would I describe current-day Mexico, Argentina, France, South Africa, Egypt, etc., etc..–as particularly libertarian.

Though the people are better off—possibly freer— than years earlier. If people could live free in these countries back then it was most likely despite the monarchies, not because of them: the monarchs simply didn't have the means of oppression governments have today.

Venezuela and the Incan Empire are hardly a comparison. The Incan empire ended about 480 years ago. Venezuela under Chavez is about 20 years old and possibly prompted by a attempted coup planned by the CIA—paranoia will do that to you, I suppose. It might be near an end, though recovery might take a few decades.

I don't think monarchy will help. Btw, who should be the monarch there: Maduro or some governor appointed by Felipe VI (and would Spain be better off if the latter had more power)?

Meanwhile its neighbour Colombia has gotten a bit of its act together without installing a monarch.

>any two countries with a sufficiently advanced supply chain will not want to do war with each other.

Like Napoleon's invasions, Hitler's invasion of Russia (what, Western Europe wasn't enough?), Italy's invasion of Ethiopia (to get that rich supply of …, ), Japan's invasion of China (because something happened after centuries of presumed autarky), or Saudi Arabia's beating up on Yemen because …, (America making lots of money selling weapons.)

>>96777

11. Orion – Angel Of Dust

This is some good old fashion thrash Metal with a pinch of Progressive. Every metal head in this country should definitely give this album a listen.

sounds good


 No.96795

>>96777

>Probably none, but most—likely almost all—succession rules aren't based on NAP.

Good.

Anything based on NAP seems to fail faster than the succession of kings.


 No.96796

>>96795

>coercion is the key

go back to leftypol


 No.96801

>>96795

>Anything based on NAP seems to fail faster than the succession of kings.

>There's not been NAP implemented and while monarchies have reliably failed repeatedly to give the place to republican regimes they are superior because they didn't do so until industrial revolution.

How much of a nigger can you be, retarded leftist faggot?


 No.96805

>>96796

>>96801

>recreational McNukes are justified when your target chucked a rock at you first

That's not how the world works, silly lolbergs.


 No.96806

File: 80c6b877765e2f3⋯.mp4 (8.71 MB, 426x240, 71:40, Justice - D.A.N.C.E. x Fir….mp4)

Monarchy is dead, never to return.

The material conditions which allowed decentralized client-patron relationships to outcompete centralized organizations are no longer present due to:

-Industrialization

-Hyper-specialization of labour

-High-speed communications

-Gunpowder weapons

-Modern management techniques


 No.96807

File: 12a329ea3e02ec6⋯.jpg (142.76 KB, 1141x601, 1141:601, Safe operation of McNukes.jpg)

>>96805

>I have no argument so I'll reference irrelevant ancap ball memes instead of responding


 No.96810

File: 9e33b40f7a7311d⋯.jpg (19.84 KB, 255x231, 85:77, 3cbd15f830f5c6250ff6611d60….jpg)

>>96805

You forgot muh roads, retarded leftist.


 No.96813

>>96807

What about spill over fallout due to wind and sheeeit?


 No.96815

>>96813

>any are-effect weapon


 No.96819

File: 8c0757619ac3342⋯.jpg (14.43 KB, 228x206, 114:103, 8c0757619ac334265b4f2a853e….jpg)

>>96806

What do any of those have to do with the death of monarchies? There are still functional monarchies today, even absolute ones and quite a few(Persia until 1979, Some Middle Eastern countries) were quite livable places.


 No.96820

>>96807

fun fact i made that image


 No.96829

>>96819

>Some Middle Eastern countries

Nice joke, m8


 No.96833

File: 49ae5d32a3fc0bf⋯.png (423.88 KB, 640x320, 2:1, ClipboardImage.png)

>>96721

>>what is regency

Corrupt councils manipulating a child?


 No.96834

File: f34e7217bd99dad⋯.jpg (107.91 KB, 600x555, 40:37, Olga of Kiev.jpg)

>>96833

>Hollywood tropes are history

Regents were often part of the royal family and tended to perform their jobs rather well.


 No.96879

>>96834

Roger Mortimer wasn't royal,and he and Isabella fucked up the country royally (no pun intended).


 No.96904

File: 2d6fd12ae0c2c60⋯.png (148.91 KB, 400x211, 400:211, ClipboardImage.png)

>>96834

being part of the family doesn't mean you'll do a good job.


 No.96913

>>96761

>In its final years, Imperial Russia had an extremely liberalized economy

>final years

And then there were 100 years of unending famine, terror, slavery and war, tens of millions dead in WW2 and 5 million dead by abortion every year. And counting. Absolutely royal fuck up. Thank you, Nicky, your incompetence at tsardom cost my family four generations of slavery in the worst regime in history of mankind and got me born on the ruins of what previous century used to be the most promising state this hemisphere. Much appreciated.

Boy I'm so glad those genseks with absolute power were such great not-monarch, especially the Mongol-Jewish Lenny dude or the Georgian bank robber or that Jewish KGB overlord-turn-comatose-potato or even that Ukrainian locksmith obsessed with maize and space race. Absolute power+absolute destitution of serfs=ultimate monarchy combo.

I'd say democracy is a low-risk low-reward strategy. A stellar ruler has little time and power to enact stellar change, but a lowly manlet hasn't enough time and power to burn it all too. With monarchy you might get a stellar rules with absolute power to enact any changes he wants. With a much larger possibility you'll get a meh fancy chair warmer, or an absolute nightmare of a tyrant - or a pansy that paves the way to that tyrant. One can't but arrive at a conclusion that the best monarch-president is the one having the least power to fuck up your life at whim, that is with no power at all - no kings, no states, no roads.

Fuck monarchy. With all the experience of the absolute monarchies of Rurikids, Romanovs and Bolsheviks summed up and accounted for, fuck them all. Monarchies were good in the past because they had no technology of the present to enslave the shit out of their serfs. If you want to see how a king and retinue would absolutely rule with modern tech, take a closer look at the rule-for-life genseks of USSR and their knightly retinue of KGB forces.

Fucking hell. I though the whole meaning of liberty was NOT giving up your liberty to some absolute hereditary dude you probably never saw in your life and never will. Monopoly leads to decrease of service value and its increase in price. Just because medieval kings were too weak to enforce a monopoly on their decision-making because of ancient tech doesn't mean that having a king is a good idea. When the not_kings of the USSR got phones to order genocides half the globe away real time with tanks, gas artillery and machine gus, they did, because why not.


 No.96914

>>96819

>Persia until 1979

So good a place the monarch bough several tonnes of black caviar to party at a made up occasion while the plebs were starving in aftermath of an earthquake iirc. Having two armies of commies and islamists both with foreign backing ALLYING to take you out with wide popular support should tell enough of how good a common Persian lived.

Common Persian, not a leet leech. You can find thousands of extremely rich and swaggy kiddies in Russia, who just so happen to have a daddy in not_KGB or any state monopoly, doesn't mean common plebs here like Putin that much.

>Some Middle Eastern countries

Some you can't even name? If you talk about the Gulf Monarchies, then what, you like a gilded cage of an Emirati citizen where the state decrees which type of house you have to live in and orders death penalty at attempts to change citizenship? Some camel fuckers with unearned wealth swim in luxuries playing with toy plebs inside the guilded cages and 50-75% ratio of foreign imported not-slaves doing everything else, all while the oil flows and the overbloated navy of US of A provide 'security services'.

What great examples. A common man can't but wish to live there.


 No.96918

File: 8af4a9309ea3c8b⋯.webm (259.92 KB, 624x352, 39:22, neverending_supply.webm)

>>96913

>bolsheviks are monarchs

>bolsheviks are the Tsar's fault


 No.96962

>>96918

Pretty much an elective caste monarchy, with a hereditary class of Nomenklatura not_feudals collectively owning hereditary not_slaves granted to them by a Gensek not_king that had absolute ownership of everything and everyone for life. They even had their own religious rituals, with not_Coronation repeated standing on a not_temple of a not_saint Lenny, with not_priestly class of preachers of holy Marxist-Lennonist dogma upholding their not_Divine_Right of rule by the Mandate-of-Heav errr I mean the Historical Progress to Heav eerr Communism.

Although you know what, Genseks were closer to Khalifs by wielding both political and spiritual authority. And all the not_Holy Wars to spread the not_religion as well as not_monarchy of these not_khalifs.

Monarchies are shit. Always were, always will be. Each and any monarchy, like any other state, went to maximum enslavement of 'its' property-people and not-yet-robbed-and-conquered neighbors by any means possible. Modern bureaucratic State is just monarchs' enslavement machines noticing they didn't quite need monarchs' to enslave the plebs, so they either offed their useless heads or turned them into hereditary actors on welfare.

Unless you believe all the peasant revolts happened because the villains were tired of drinking champagne under their benevolent great monarchical overlords, you must notice the tendency. Ever since an overbloated mega-state of Western Rome bled itself dry and was taken over by free tribals, the tendency of temporary chiefs to turn into hereditary absolute rule Stalins is clear. Same with common people turning to property-less plebs, eventually degrading into property-people serfs.

And take a closer look on my flag and think a bit of implications. If the Kim dynasty can just turn all their serfs into cattle deadly afraid of torture camps, why not?


 No.96967

File: 08ed8ca481907fc⋯.jpg (57.84 KB, 528x720, 11:15, 08ed8ca481907fc4d34de712e6….jpg)

>>96962

>Pretty much an elective caste monarchy

>Monarchies are shit. Always were, always will be

Take your pills, m8.


 No.96972

>>96967

Not an argument, m8.


 No.96975

>>96972

I know, just take them or seek help if you don't have any. It's really bad.


 No.96976

>>96975

If you say so. To each his own, I guess.

Seems some people just can't fight the urge to throw themselves under the rule of some unknown guy with a big fancy hat and a cyber gulag ownership.




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