/liberty/ - Liberty

Some more:

“Why not make the minimum wage $100/hr?”

“Prison has free healthcare.”

>>91290

So then back to the OP's question…why doesn't that argument work? What is the socialist's reply to saying, "You want socialism? Go to prison."

>>91276

>Conversely, Venezuela ranks lower than Cuba, how can you call it capitalist?

I've heard people say that it was Western exploitation and sanctions that caused Venezuela to collapse. No, it's not a "good" reply but it's the only one I've heard.

>Why does nearly every metric decouple after 1971?

Keynesians like to say that inflation remained high despite high unemployment because expectations of inflation remained high.

>>91302

The same reply they have to "You want socialism? Go to [shithole country]"–they'll just tell you that isn't real socialism and if you just changed an unnamed number of minor details the next time around it will work.

Oh, hey, I can do this…

>The Nordic countries rank near the top in economic freedom, how can you call them socialist?

…this is a total non-sequiteur. Basically, you've structured your arguments around "anything I don't like is socialism," and then you're surprised when this isn't exactly… rigorous.

Anyone who refers to nordic capitalism is an idiot, but not for the reasons you've supplied. And yes, "economic freedom" amounts entirely to "I like you" with no grounding; Singapore, where the economy is entirely controlled by the state, keeps getting ranked highly.

>>91302

>What is the socialist's reply to saying, "You want socialism? Go to prison."

…mostly to call the person who made it a fucking idiot

Prison, under… frankly, most definitions… is an example of capitalism. It has owning and managerial classes - warden, guards, et cetera. It has worker classes - the prisoners. These classes are seperate, and only one has legal control of the prison. In the US, prisons are operated for profit.

That's… privatized and class-stratified control of property orchestrated and managed for profit, buddy.

Accurate examples of socialism include things like credit unions, mutual insurance companies like State Farm, and the like; most (but not all) of these are the product of Proudhon, an avowed socialist. The common (and defining) feature is that it is owned and managed horizontally by the common members in process ranging from direct democracy to full consensus, with no owner/great leader/proprietor/etc above or seperate from the membership… peer-to-peer, "just us folks."

Basically, lie, and then believe your bullshit, and all you get is bullshit, bluntly.

>>91305

You use far too many quotation marks and ellipses for me to take anything you say seriously.

>>91307

>red herring because lying is all I have.

Again.

>>91310

>because changing the subject to non-content is the same as content.

lol'k.

>>91305

>most (but not all) of these are the product of Proudhon

<First American mutual insurance company established in 1752 by Ben Franklin, a liberal and federalist

<First credit union founded in 1864 by Franz Schulze-Delitzsch, also a liberal and federalist

<Proudhon wrote from 1840 to 1865, and was a socialist anarchist

Props for the creativity, though. I've never heard someone insist that mutual insurance is real socialism.

>>91303

I never understood this. Why do socialists think that sanctions are bad economically when they do not even believe in comparative advantage?

>>91305

>Singapore, where the economy is entirely controlled by the state,

[citation needed]

>It has owning and managerial classes - warden, guards, et cetera. It has worker classes - the prisoners. These classes are seperate, and only one has legal control of the prison.

Classes and managerial ownership is not exclusive to capitalism. The very fact that these are state institutions contradicts the definition of capitalism: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.asp

>In the US, prisons are operated for profit.

Very few. Most are state/federal operated. Profit is not exclusive to capitalism (socialism has it too).

>>91334

What does the prisons being for profit even have to do with the principal being discussed here? The principal is that prison is a society in which all needs are supposedly taken care of without cost to the prisoners. The prison being operated by the State or by a corporation does not change how "nice prison is."

>>91302

>So then back to the OP's question…why doesn't that argument work? What is the socialist's reply to saying, "You want socialism? Go to prison."

Not every place that fulfills some or even all characteristics of socialism is automatically a good place to socialists. For example prison offers extremely restricted freedom of movement, while most socialists want much more of it.

>- The Nordic countries rank near the top in economic freedom, how can you call them socialist?

highest government spending = economic freedom?

>- Conversely, Venezuela ranks lower than Cuba, how can you call it capitalist?

cuba is recently loosened up, market stuff is allowed now

>- How can one defend Keynesianism after looking at Japan?

what?

>- Why does nearly every metric decouple after 1971?

the war caused economic boom, plus the advancement of the economy reached a ceiling

>- If regulations were increasing at a staggering rate according to the federal register, how can it be said the "deregulation caused the great recession?"

citation needed, also reagan and thatcher

>>91286

minimum wage must be tied to local mean wage, it 15$ works in NYC but not in some ghetto shithole

>>91334

https://boingboing.net/2018/03/11/capitalist-ideal.html

>t's also an autocracy run by a dynastic series of strongmen who have expropriated 90% of the land on behalf of the state, which owns nearly all the nation's housing, and whose sovereign wealth fund has a serious stake in most of the country's significant businesses.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2017/07/06/why-80-of-singaporeans-live-in-government-built-flats

>>91332

Something something exploitation.

>>91302

>>91303

when socialists dream of their system they're either imagining themselves in charge or that they'll be able to be useless layabouts with all their desires met. this is why any examples in reality don't meet their criteria, they're imagining some sort of utopia.

>>91363

>control of real estate market = control of all markets

typical socialist logic

>>91363

>highest government spending = economic freedom?

Size of government is factored into EFI

>what?

I think he is referring to quantitative easing and government expenditure that became a fad during the lost decade (and still in place today).

>the war caused economic boom

a 25+ year boom? why have we not seen these in other wars?

>advancement of the economy reached a ceiling

Despite advancements in technology and population?

Just counter all arguments saying that paradise doenst exist and discussing fiction is pointless as we do not live in the world of fiction and trying to make radical changes to reach paradise is retarded because it already been tried and just got multiples time worst because the fact that we leave in the real world and not the world of fiction.

If they point any specific case, point out that we live in the real world and labeling shit of "socialism" or "capitalism" in a reductionist way as to describe a soccer team as blue or red, and is pure retarded and them point that the only facts we have today is that more economic free society's prospered in the modern world while less free economic society's didn't.

>>91419

Commas and periods are your friend.

>>91421

except periods

>>91419

You started out as "the opposite of X is just as bad as X. Whoops, guess I win again" and ended with an actually reasonable conclusion.

>>91328

>Props for the creativity, though. I've never heard someone insist that mutual insurance is real socialism.

Not the first…

http://www.groupama.com/en/our-governance/principles-of-mutualism/

…no.

In fact, it's kind of 101-tier… and there is literally nothing more cleanly and fundamentaly a textbook example of socialism. Admittedly, 101-tier is asking a lot of the folks around here.

But… it's not terribly "creative" at all; it's basic.

>>91334

>>In the US, prisons are operated for profit.

>Very few. Most are state/federal operated

https://exhibits.library.rice.edu/exhibits/show/sugarlandconvictleasing/history-of-convict-leasing

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-insourcing-of-prison-labor-seven-us-corporate-household-names-use-prison-labor-to-produce-their-goods/5492033

…etc. Sort of naieve, here.

>>91429

You do realize that even "private" prisons receive extensive amounts of federal money and are for all intents and purposes state-funded, right?

>>91485

Does the name "vanguard" ring a bell?

>>91429

Where does it show that most prisons make a profit? It seems the only ones profiting are the corporations from the tax credits, and the government from prisoner debt.

>>91707

the "number of pages in the federal register" meme

>>91276

>If regulations were increasing at a staggering rate according to the federal register, how can it be said the "deregulation caused the great recession?"

The problem wasn't deregulation per se, but a series of non-policy decisions made by various government-backed financial institutions. I suggest you look into the history of mortgage-backed securities and compare that to your infographic.

Basically, everything comes down to two groups betting for or against the health of the market, and both groups being certain enough that they're right to consider their gamble a guaranteed payout in the future. It's like I bet you $10 that aliens would come to Earth 10 years from now, and you took that bet. Then I consider that it's as good as an IOU from you for $10, and I add that IOU to the $10 bill in my pocket, and report that my assets have doubled. When you do the same thing, we just created $20 of unbacked currency of dubious value, and when we spend it (or hold it to meet our wives' reserve requirements while spending less questionable money), we've added it to the money supply. That money floats around until 10 years roll by, and aliens have either landed or not. Then one of us loses and the imaginary $20 we created disappears.

The decoupling you see in 1970 isn't wages separating from productivity, but rather money supply separating from productivity. It's impossible to measure a modern nation's productivity using outdated measures like GDP or GNI since they all do this shit. Investment banks create money out of thin air using fraudulent accounting practices, pay that money to executives and shareholders, who use it to buy real property and physical assets, and when the crunch comes and all of the fake money disappears, they still have vast amounts of wealth to show for it.

>>91715

the "everything is a spook and I'm an actual cuck" meme

>>91723