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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 6644b18ba22bfb1⋯.png (332.46 KB, 378x590, 189:295, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.82357

>individual fails to produce anything of monetary value

 No.82358

>>82357

Why are you worried about someone else. Keep your nose in your own business. That is how statists are born.


 No.82377

>>82358

>stop feeding that homeless guy you fucking statist!


 No.82379

File: 28ddbea215864f0⋯.png (321 KB, 337x500, 337:500, ClipboardImage.png)

>>82377

>creating a cycle of dependency


 No.82380

>>82379

Better than literal starvation?


 No.82384

>>82380

> Literal starvation

As opposed to figurative starvation?


 No.82385


 No.82386

>>82358

Humans are pack animals. Keeping your nose out of other people's business is a luxery fewer and fewer can afford.


 No.82389

>>82380

Less food = less pigeons = more food for every remaining pigeon

Ecology 101


 No.82393

>>82389

Humans =/= Pigeons

Human food is not scarce, at least it doesn't have to be unless we stubbornly cling to markets.


 No.82394

>>82393

>thinking the laws of nature dont apply to human beings

All resources are scarce. Dont allocate them where they dont belong, you'll just exacerbate the problem


 No.82396


 No.82398

>individual fails to produce anything of monetary value

Hes going to rent seek or die then. If you want a world of pretty girls the ugly ones cant have children.


 No.82420

File: 1f8b2cf4d84de2d⋯.jpg (135.19 KB, 553x720, 553:720, artwork5.jpg)

>>82357

>individual fails to produce anything of monetary value

You can see about charity, or you can see about training and getting a sponsor for a job, etc.

>>82386

>Humans are pack animals.

There's a difference between being a social animal and a pack animal.

> Keeping your nose out of other people's business is a luxery fewer and fewer can afford.

Not really, I don't remember the last time my local club member thought that my hentai collection was somehow important and breaking news to him. Hey, it's good to know you'd support the NSA though!


 No.82457

>>82357

>wat do

In an ancap society he would go and seek help from someone willing to invest in his future, that could be a his parents or a private charity (which btw, work much more effectively than any other type of charity or government welfare program with the same funds).


 No.82460

>>82457

>or a private charity (which btw, work much more effectively than any other type of charity or government welfare program with the same funds).

Source?


 No.82485

>>82393

>human food is not scarce

How can scarcity be real if our eyes aren't real


 No.82486

>>82485

Its so much easier to debunk an argument if you just cut it in half. Ancap rhetoric 2 stronk 4 me


 No.82491

>>82460

The government wastes 70% of its donor money on administrative expenses whereas private charities spend an average of 10% on administration (some even as low as 1.5%) + 10-20% more on fundraising and other things. If you had to rate welfare by the same standards Charity Navigator rates private charities then welfare would get a score lower than 0/5.

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/catid/2/cpid/48.htm


 No.82496

>>82357

not your business


 No.82516

>>82380

>>82389

>>82393

Except the people who don't work need to die out in order for evolution to take place. If they survive to breed, every successive generation will have more people who don't produce anything, until you're like 100 million welfare recipient mutants and one normal guy trying to keep them fed.

AT LEAST CASTRATE THEM BEFORE FEEDING THEM


 No.82523

>>82486

>Ancap rhetoric 2 stronk 4 me

If you want strong rhetoric, read one of our books. Don't go to an imageboard. You think even our smart users put 100% into every post if their audience has the attention span of a goldfish and changed every week?


 No.82524

>>82523

You don't have to put effort into your posts in order to not misrepresent the opposition. All you have to do is drag the mouse a bit farther right when you mark for copy-paste.


 No.82525

>>82516

We'd be more succesful killing off ancaps so we can have a civilized society where we don't kill off the sick and elderly just because they can't make iphones for us.

You guys make me sick with your genocidal sentiments.


 No.82526

>>82523

Can confirm. I'm the smartest user on this board, and even I just use a fraction of my intelligence.

>>82524

All this time we were using only 5% of our IQ when arguing with commiecucks, piss us off and we might just crank it up 6, "buddy".


 No.82528

File: 44f8359ac0aae10⋯.jpg (37.55 KB, 225x350, 9:14, 310568.jpg)


 No.82529

>>82486

He did not make an argument. Why would I waste time trying to argue with an assertion? He can't prove, nor disprove,(and probably has no intention to), his statement about the future, so how would I? The most I can do is highlight how inane it is.

I am genuinely curious. Can you make a distinction between an assertion and an argument. Are you being disingenuous or is your unattached intellectual showing?


 No.82561

>>82525

This is the fate of your society:

>If they survive to breed, every successive generation will have more people who don't produce anything, until you're like 100 million welfare recipient mutants and one normal guy trying to keep them fed.


 No.82568

>>82561

Why would people stop producing under communism?

Why would people produce less when they get a larger portion of the fruit of their labour (due to no parasitic capitalist class that siphons surplus value)


 No.82571

>>82568

Walmart CEO Doug McMillon gets 19 million a year, he "parasitizes" about $0.002 per worker per hour, while providing an invaluable service without which Walmart couldn't exist.

I seriously doubt people will start working 12 hours a day if they have an extra $0.002 per hour.


 No.82572

>>82568

You don't think giving people who don't work money might influence people not to work?


 No.82574

>>82396

>the problem is distribution under a capitalist system

>provides no evidence

Yet it is the state that is preventing GMO crops from being planted in these countries, diverting food, and perpetuating war. That must be one butchered definition of capitalism that she is using.

>USA is #1 per capita in CO2 emissions

Yet no mention of how the industrial military complex has anything to do with this?


 No.82577

>>82568

>(due to no parasitic capitalist class that siphons surplus value)

If this were true, any coop would out-compete this capitalist class. Better get busy.


 No.82587

>>82577

Coops are capitalist themselves though.


 No.82592

>>82357

>what do

If I have extra money/food or a job opening at my company, provide some charity or if they're qualified, give them a job.

If not, I mind my own business and let them mind theirs. If they violate the NAP, they are punished accordingly.


 No.82615

File: 9b79689e81f6c0c⋯.jpg (103.85 KB, 720x720, 1:1, Murray Rothbard on being c….jpg)

File: c315e8ee1a922d6⋯.jpeg (335.63 KB, 829x576, 829:576, Jamestown Socialism (The ….jpeg)

File: 1dd2246b8ca8773⋯.png (1.51 MB, 1113x1980, 371:660, soviet hypocrisy.png)

>>82377

Stop feeding that homeless guy with my money, you fucking statist. I want that money for myself, if only so that I can give to charity myself and not let someone else do so and then pretend he's got all my karma points. Shutting these self-righteous pricks up is reason enough to abolish the welfare state. You want good karma? You want to be good in Gods eyes? Make a damn sacrifice. Don't force others to do it. If a robber punched me in the face, took my wallet and gave it to a poor man, I would have more respect for him than for any of these university students that vote for the welfare state. At least the robber puts his own life on the line. At least he is willing to offend the cops, risk a prison sentence, and social stigmatization. He is too decent a guy to let the state do his dirty work for him.

>>82384

Kek!

>>82525

>We'd be more succesful killing off ancaps so we can have a civilized society where we don't kill off the sick and elderly just because they can't make iphones for us.

What if they're Kulaks though? :^) Really damn tired of you niggers moralizing on me.

>>82568

>Why would people stop producing under communism?

Why did they stop producing under communism? Small correction. If you want empirical proof, you got it. Farmers in the USSR stopped producing, and farmers in Jamestown stopped producing back when the colony was ran as a socialist economy. Turns out that when you force people to share equally with their peers, they will be inclined to work as little as possible, because they will only get a fraction of what they produced. Only in small and intimate groups can you avoid this, and even there, you often have a head, like the parents in a family.

>Why would people produce less when they get a larger portion of the fruit of their labour (due to no parasitic capitalist class that siphons surplus value)

The labor theory of value was a stillborn theory, and Marx adopted it uncritically. Read Adam Smiths original reasoning on it and tell me it's not filled with non sequiturs.


 No.82619

>>82357

In Capitalism there is no such thing as an individual who fails to produce anything of monetary value because…

A) The government doesn't fund plebs

B) Even fucking Ford figured out how to employ disabled people- turns out the disabled actually develop habits due to their disability that are a net-positive in the workplace.


 No.82625

>>82394

>He thinks world hunger is a production problem and not an economic problem

Are you literally retarded?


 No.82626

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>82398

>If you want a world of pretty girls the ugly ones cant have children.

Good. The ugly bitches have been fucking around more than they're supposed to anyways because of global feminist bullshit. Advice related no longer applies.


 No.82627

>>82568

>Why would people stop producing under communism?

We have to agree to a whole bunch of assumptions before answering. None of us agree with the labor theory of value, linear historical theory or exploitation theory. Communism neither is, nor ever will be as imagined by Communists, so production under it is of no use discussing. Especially with the inability to calculate subjective preference without private property.


 No.82636

>>82615

i love you, anon


 No.82641

>>82571

The CEO is not a capitalist, he does not siphon surplus value. I'm talking about the share holders like Hillary.


 No.82646

File: 8c78070326ec479⋯.png (135.89 KB, 500x608, 125:152, gimme dat toothbrush white….png)

>>82572

People are given money not to work in many first world countries. Guess what, people still work. Being a neet is not very fulfilling.

I'm sure there will be people who want to slack off, especially because capitalism teaches us that work is awful and doesn't benefit ourselves, but we can manage some leeches. At least they don't get as much as the capitalists do now.

>>82615

>You want good karma? You want to be good in Gods eyes?

You're missing the point so hard. This is not about being good and making jesus love us, it's about living under a system where people aren't dumped under the bridge for not being productive enough. It's a very pragmatic position, because I know I could one day lose my arm and end up needing welfare, or something could happen to my family/friends.

You want to feel good giving homeless people food yourself? Go ahead, but don't force your anarchy onto the civilized in society.

>What if they're Kulaks though? :^) Really damn tired of you niggers moralizing on me.

Then their land will be collectivized to be worked by the Kulak's workers. The Kulak can work on equal footing with his previous workers or he can fuck off.

>Why did they stop producing under communism? Small correction. If you want empirical proof, you got it. Farmers in the USSR stopped producing, and farmers in Jamestown stopped producing back when the colony was ran as a socialist economy

When you say farmers stopped producing, do you mean Kulaks or actual farmers? Farmers in the Sovjet Union were much better off than they were under the Tzar, and produced much more (especially with the fast mechanization by the government).

I don't know anything about Jamestown. Do you have any reading material?

>Turns out that when you force people to share equally with their peers, they will be inclined to work as little as possible, because they will only get a fraction of what they produced. Only in small and intimate groups can you avoid this, and even there, you often have a head, like the parents in a family.

We don't expect people to go from a capitalist economy straight to a communist one, where everyone gets gibs. To quote the big boy himself

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division

of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor

has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased

with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more

abundantly – only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and

society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

>The labor theory of value was a stillborn theory, and Marx adopted it uncritically. Read Adam Smiths original reasoning on it and tell me it's not filled with non sequiturs.

Can you make an argument for this or give me a short text to read? Not particularly interested in reading Adam Smith just for the sake of this debate.


 No.82662

>>82641

>share holders

>siphon surplus value

Yes but they also provide initial value, which makes the entire business possible. And if it fails, they also bear a commensurate responsibility and cost of the failure.

It isn't the case that share holders just magically get shares and then those shares give them value.

>Hillary

Nice try, most shareholders are pension plans for old people.


 No.82663

>>82587

Actually co-ops and corporatism in general are socialist.

Marxism:

>workers own the means of production

Corporatism/Co-op:

>each worker owns a share in the means of production

There isn't any functional difference.


 No.82665

File: 5bea1a110b735ca⋯.png (124.33 KB, 500x685, 100:137, 2010-2030-un-projections-o….png)

File: f5e1ac3996a4cea⋯.jpg (71.25 KB, 825x669, 275:223, bg-war-on-poverty-50-years….jpg)

>>82646

>People are given money not to work in many first world countries.

Welfare programs have been instituted in the west around the mid cold war, the American war on poverty dates back to 1960, and ever since welfare programs became the norm the "first world" has declined. In fact you commies frequently cite falling wages as a failure of capitalism, when in essence the problem exists due to added socialism.

Every country that has brought in welfare programs has had their economy slow or actually begin collapsing.

Look at Sweden, they used to have #1 HDI, and it's been steadily falling from #1 to #14 since instituting it, socialists praised it as proof that socialism works while it was falling in HDI, nowadays socialists rarely mention Sweden because it proves them wrong as much as Venezuela does. In the future it's projected to fall even more (pic #1).

Look at American "War on Poverty" from the 60s. Poverty was decreasing steadily before welfare was introduced, and then poverty began rising! The only reason they didn't keep rising is because of stagnating population freeing up more welfare bux, and because of The Information Revolution which was a massive paradigm shift in human wealth creation and it barely made a blip in the poverty scores… because of the "War on Poverty".

If we had never instituted socialist practices, we would have ended poverty by 1985!


 No.82680

>>82625

Are you?


 No.82681

>>82665

>Look at Sweden, they used to have #1 HDI, and it's been steadily falling from #1 to #14 since instituting it,

LOL, its not the socialism that fucked them over. Its the importing of millions of poor migrants into their tiny country. If they kept their socialist policies and deported all the foreigners it would go right back up.


 No.82682

>>82681

Wrong, Sweden has been collapsing since the 80s. The migration laws were relaxed in 2001 and the migrant crisis wasn't a factor until 2010.

By the way…

THE WELFARE IS THE REASON MIGRANTS CROSS 50 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES TO GET TO SWEDEN

Fucking moron.


 No.82690

>>82646

Are you just meming or genuinely think this particular genocide was no biggie?


 No.82692

>>82682

And then your 500 average IQ Socialist comes up with the great idea of the century - what if we're both Socialist AND Nationalist?


 No.82702

>>82665

I live in Scandinavia, I know very well how neoliberal policies have been gutting our welfare for decades.

Welfare is crumbling, not because welfare doesn't work, but because our banks and big business "need" more tax cuts.

>>82690

It wasn't a genocide. There was a famine, but it was not intentional, nor was it a consequence of communism.

Stalin was a cool dude, but he unfortunately couldn't control the weather.


 No.82703

>>82702

To add to this, one of the biggest reasons welfare has declined so much is the fall of the Sovjet Union. The threat of revolution, and generally the class based discussion and rhetoric declined. People became illusioned with the capitalist ideology of class-collaboration/nationalism, aka "we're all in this together"


 No.82704

>>82702

>Slavery is crumbling, not because it doesn't work, but because some escape from it.


 No.82705

>>82704

This statement is true and irrelevant.


 No.82717

>>82702

>>82705

>Welfare is crumbling, not because welfare doesn't work, but because our banks and big business "need" more tax cuts.

>It wasn't a genocide […] nor was it a consequence of communism.

>This statement is true and irrelevant.

That just sounds like weasel language tbqh. At what point are socialist systems to be held responsible for disasters that happen on their watch? Or was it just not socialism…

For that point, if you have no examples of communism working perfectly, why the hell would anyone risk life and limb to transition to your untested system?


 No.82719

File: 32e8ca4746faf8b⋯.jpg (61.87 KB, 633x537, 211:179, stalin paying the clouds n….jpg)

>>82717

>At what point are socialist systems to be held responsible for disasters that happen on their watch?


 No.82723

>>82719

Wow, rude. Didn't your mother ever teach you that you win more flies with honey than vinegar?


 No.82725

>>82717

And welfare=/=socialism

Socialism is a system of ownership, that is the working class own the means of production. When the workers are in control of the economy, they will naturally want welfare for the working class, so these policies will be voted in.

It takes a lot of capitalist propaganda for the working class to be against welfare, but welfare is compatible with both a socialist and capitalist economy.


 No.82729

>>82723

I don't think you get the joke, I'm not sour.


 No.82732

>>82702

>There was a famine, but it was not intentional, nor was it a consequence of communism.

Why did they not concentrate on surplus in productive years as a buffer against droughts/famines? Why did they not import food en masse?


 No.82733

>>82725

>it takes a lot of capitalist propaganda to not want to shell out your hard earned paycheck to a complete stranger


 No.82735

>>82725

>When the workers are in control of the economy, they will naturally want welfare for the working class, so these policies will be voted in.

History shows that these people would form fraternal societies.

https://fee.org/articles/lodge-doctors-and-the-poor/


 No.82738

>>82725

>welfare is compatible with a capitalist economy.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


 No.82739

>>82732

> did they not concentrate on surplus in productive years as a buffer against droughts/famines

>communists

>surplus

>any year


 No.82741

>>82732

Russia at the time was pretty fucked from WW1 and two civil wars, and a major thing is that the peasantry were not yet included into the Sovjet command economy, so it was simply not possible for them to do it prior to this. The famine was the catalyst for the Sovjet government to take the farms exactly so they could avoid a famine devestating an area like this again. This move obviously made the Kulaks very mad because they didn't want their land confiscated by the evil commies, so they burned grain and sabotaged the Sovjets any way they could, which made everything worse. It was a shitty situation, but it did not repeat.


 No.82742

>>82615

>If a robber punched me in the face, took my wallet and gave it to a poor man, I would have more respect for him than for any of these university students that vote for the welfare state. At least the robber puts his own life on the line. At least he is willing to offend the cops, risk a prison sentence, and social stigmatization. He is too decent a guy to let the state do his dirty work for him.

This tbh. Statists, leftists and natsocs have absolutely ZERO responsibility. They'd rather do fuck all and pretend to be good guys while forcing others to make sacrifices they themselves don't want to make.


 No.82744

>>82735

tldr?>>82742

>If a robber punched me in the face, took my wallet and gave it to a poor man, I would have more respect for him than for any of these university students that vote for the welfare state.

Stalin robbed banks to fund the revolution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907_Tiflis_bank_robbery


 No.82745


 No.82746

>>82741

You don't know a damn thing about Russia, shut the fuck up.

And it's Soviet, not Sovjet.


 No.82747

>>82746

Dude I've read over a dozen memes about Russia.


 No.82759

>>82665

>>82682

>Shows projections that are all post migration

<Sweden has been collapsing since the 80s

nice try bud


 No.82764

>>82759

>gapitalism killed swayden

Fuck off.


 No.82767

>>82725

>wealth redistribution isnt socialism

Yes it is. Sometimes you're just completely wrong.

But just in case you're serious and not trolling, at what percentage of wealth redistribution, in percent of GDP, can a country be considered socialist? At what GDP percentage of wealth redistribution is it considered communist?

>>82744

>le stalin wasn't real socialism but let me bring him up every time socialism is mentioned as an example of socialism

>ignore his picture on my tshirt, mac wallpaper, and posters with his picture all over my moms basement

The reason people here don't like you isn't because they disagree, it's because you are a fucking joke without a punchline.


 No.82769

>>82767

>But just in case you're serious and not trolling, at what percentage of wealth redistribution, in percent of GDP, can a country be considered socialist? At what GDP percentage of wealth redistribution is it considered communist?

Wealth redistribution isn't communism either :^)

>le stalin wasn't real socialism but let me bring him up every time socialism is mentioned as an example of socialism

Don't strawman me. The USSR became revisionist when Stalin died.

2/10 post fam.


 No.82770

>>82764

Importing 3rd world voters killed sweden


 No.82772

>>82769

>Wealth redistribution isn't communism either :^)

Yes it is, wealth redistribution is the original dictionary definition

But that wasn't my question. You are evading my question.

>The USSR became revisionist when Stalin died.

So was Stalin real socialism then?


 No.82774

>>82772

When I dismiss the premise that communism=wealth redistribution, then the rest of your question becomes moot.

>So was Stalin real socialism then?

No, Stalin was the general secretary of the communist party.


 No.82775

>>82774

You're right. There cant be any wealth redistribution if there is no wealth.


 No.82776

File: 654d260c33a0570⋯.jpeg (47.92 KB, 600x899, 600:899, rekt.jpeg)


 No.82777

File: 01753e8e698df80⋯.jpg (130.26 KB, 1200x692, 300:173, DbrVztNUwAE542s.jpg)


 No.82778

File: f5ce75dae2f6b5d⋯.jpg (99.19 KB, 1300x866, 650:433, ggnore.jpg)


 No.82779

File: 66cd297840b9ed6⋯.jpg (89.33 KB, 682x1024, 341:512, Da32P-BUQAAOTT9.jpg)


 No.82792

>>82774

>When I dismiss the premise that communism=wealth redistribution

You can dismiss it all you want, that is literally the definition, common ownership of the means of production. I'm just asking what level would you consider it achieved.

You also ignored answering:

1. What percentage of gdp has to be redistributed to achieve socialism.

2. Whether or not stalin presided over "real socialism''

Scurrying under the fridge like a cockroach confronted with light every time someone asks you a question is not a good look.

You're likely doing it because you know you're wrong, deep down.


 No.82813

>>82702

He couldn't control the weather, but he could have not exported grain.


 No.82831

>>82792

>You can dismiss it all you want, that is literally the definition, common ownership of the means of production.

YES THAT IS THE DEFINITION!

So why do you now ask me "how much GDP has to be redistributed for le REAL socialism/communism????"

Are you retarded?

>2. Whether or not stalin presided over "real socialism''

Yes, the USSR under Stalin was "real socialism", albeit an underdeveloped form. The communist party never deluded themselves into thinking they could achieve a higher stage communist society without large parts of the west going red.

>Scurrying under the fridge like a cockroach confronted with light every time someone asks you a question is not a good look.

No, you're just fucking terrible at articulating your questions, and I'm guessing because you're absolutely ignorant on the subject.


 No.82840

>>82831

What the fuck do you think the third letter in GDP stands for? Now let me ask you again insect! What level of common ownership in percentage of the annual PRODUCTION of a country is needed, to quality it as a common ownership of the means of PRODUCTION?!

You drooling fucking retard!

>Yes, the USSR under Stalin was "real socialism", albeit an underdeveloped form.

And the genocide of Kulaks happened under his watch, as did the ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians in holodomor, and dozens of other ethnic groups destroyed or moved around, almost a million people directly shot in the back of the head under his yezhovshchina policy…


 No.82850

>>82840

THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION DOES NOT MEAN THE GRAND DOMESTIC PRODUCT! THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION ARE THE FACTORIES, NOT THE COMMODITIES, YOU MONGLOID!

>And the genocide of Kulaks happened under his watch

There was no genocide. The Kulak farms were put into the hands of the farmers, and some Kulaks decided to rebel and sabotage, starving the area even more. Killing Kulaks at that point was perfectly justified.

>as did the ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians in holodomor

No such thing.

>almost a million people directly shot in the back of the head under his yezhovshchina policy…

I doubt this number has much validity, but I wont deny the purges sometimes got out of hand and innocents were killed, but counter revolution was rampant during those times, so it was not completely unjustified.


 No.82853

>>82850

>YOU MONGLOID!

Wow! Racist much? Be careful or you might accidentally deny the holocaust, you fucking crypto-fascist.


 No.82855

>>82853

>Be careful or you might accidentally deny the holocaust

Why are those related?

Are you denying that your mom genocided 400 million nazi jews? You crypto-liberal.


 No.82856

File: 4b688972fa271a2⋯.png (36.24 KB, 1347x619, 1347:619, Holodomor_World_recognitio….png)


 No.82858

>>82856

>Trusting the opinion of the United States on historical genocides

I'm sticking with Canada on this one


 No.82859

>>82858

>only caring about North America

Either way my point was that "holodomor denial" is not contrarian. It is what most historians agree upon.


 No.82860

This idiot heard "GDP" and because his shriveled brain associates that with capitalism somehow thought GDP doesn't apply to communist systems, when it's just a measure of stuff. It's like getting mad someone asked you how many tons of steel a communist country can produce - TONS! OMG TONS! TONS IS A CAPITALIST MEASURE!!! lolololol

>>82850

The means of production are whatever you use to create a product. The product is measured in annual terms, in a value called GDP. Unless you mean to tell me that the point of communism is to give factories to the common man and then never use the factories to make stuff…. actually whatever your opinion is it doesn't matter, you are retarded.


 No.82861

>>82860

Ok. When 25% of the means of production is owned and shared by the working class, then the country is 25% socialist. Does this work for your autistic brain?


 No.82862

>>82859

No, it's not. The majority of historians categorize it as a crime against humanity or a genocide outright. Stalin had a hatred of the Kulaks and cultural Ukranians more broadly, this is a known fact. The Holodomor was targeted at either members of a particular economic class, ethnicity, or religion. This was often followed by directed immigration of ethnic Russians to depopulated areas. It is categorically a genocide.


 No.82863

>>82862

>Stalin had a hatred of the Kulaks

Of course. He was a communist. I don't know anything about his hatred of Ukranians,

The famine was not "targeted" at anyone, it affected several areas of the USSR, not just Ukraine. The collectivization of aggriculture was obviously primarily targeted at the Kulaks, since they were the farm owners. There was very little discrimination of nationality and ethnicity in the USSR compared to most other countries.


 No.82864

>>82863

Stalin targeted Ukraine specifically for grain export and political deportation as a means of quashing movements for Ukranian independence:

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/bilinsky.html

He deliberately changed the soviet policy towards the kulaks from collectvization to democide and deportation to gulags as early as 1929, prior to widespread resistance on the part of the kulaks:

https://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111stalin.html


 No.82870

>>82864

>http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/bilinsky.html

I'm reading this and I don't see any actual evidence that Stalin did something with a specific anti-ukranian intent. He targeted Kulaks, not Ukranians.

>He deliberately changed the soviet policy towards the kulaks from collectvization to democide and deportation to gulags as early as 1929, prior to widespread resistance on the part of the kulaks:

You misunderstand what Stalin says here, when we communists talk about removing a class, we don't necesarily talk about killing or imprisoning. That is reserved for those that decide to make a counter revolution. To remove the Kulaks as a class could just involve the Kulak accepting to work on equal footing with the farmers.

From the primary source of the source you linked

4. By what methods should the elimination of the

kulaks as a class be brought about?

5. Will not the simultaneous application of two

slogans: one for the areas of complete collectivisation—

elimination of the kulaks as a class, and the other for

the areas of incomplete collectivisation—restriction and

ousting of the kulaks, lead in the latter areas to the

self-elimination of the kulaks (dissipation of their property,

means of production)?


 No.82877

>>82870

>The depth of his hatred toward autonomy-minded Ukrainian leaders appears clearly from his telegram of April 4, 1918, to Ukrainian communist Volodymyr Zatonsky, who at that time was the Chairman of the Ukrainian SSR Central Executive Committee: "You have been playing long enough those [childish] games of a government and a republic. Enough is enough, stop it" (Kopelev, 1982, p 61).

>"To launch an offensive against the kulaks means that we must prepare for it and then strike at the kulaks, strike so hard as to prevent them from rising to their feet again. That is what we Bolsheviks call a real offensive."

>"There is another question which seems no less ridiculous: whether the kulaks should be permitted to join the collective farms. Of course not, for they are sworn enemies of the collective-farm movement."

Again, all of these quotes predate the famine. The kulaks were as much a political enemy of Stalin's policy of "socialism in one country" as they were the social enemies of dogmatic Marxism, and as such he saw an opportunity to end Ukranian indipendence by removing the most influential members of Ukranian society. Stalin had no pretenses of dissipating the Kulaks as a sociocultural group through collectivization, as was the case under Lenin. His goal from the start was removal of the Kulaks as a class, by means of either deportation, imprisonment, or mass-slaughter. That is a genocide.


 No.82886

File: 9ffb355e92a18af⋯.jpg (41.25 KB, 960x550, 96:55, lead_960.jpg)

>>82861

It's a step in the right direction, you've stopped acting like a child. But you're still not completely correct.

Capitalism: 0% of GDP

Socialism: >0% to <100% GDP

Communism: 100% GDP

Socialism is the stepping stone between capitalism and communism.




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