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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: ecfa5e3a1509d5d⋯.jpg (14.1 KB, 267x400, 267:400, Debt_Graeber.jpg)

 No.69396

Since we were discussing this book in another thread, I thought I'd just bring this up. In his book, Graeber makes an exception for the Mengerian theory of currency development wherein he states that barter only precedes currency in situations where trade occurs between strangers or in a society which had just lost usage of a common currency. The second caveat is exceptionally perplexing, as it seems to fly in the face of his early anthropological accounts. It would logically follow that a society with prior knowledge of currency would first decide upon a medium of exchange by consensus rather than having one spontaneously arise through barter. Graeber never asserts that this is the case–quite rightly, since the anthropological data would contradict it. However, in such circumstances, barter must first occur in order to establish market values of goods so that a salable medium of exchange may subsequently arise, regardless of prior knowledge of currency, c.f. cigarettes in POW camps. Such processes occur quickly, as barter economies are otherwise doomed to byzantine commodity exchange rates. Thus, Graeber's caveat is meaningless. There is no reason for this not to be the case in primitive societies that predominantly use credit. It would be impossible to establish a currency without knowing what the exchange rate between multiple commodity debts, effectively necessitating a barter economy of IOUs. Graeber thinks that this doesn't occur because of an "everyday communist" spirit inherent in such primitive societies. If this were indeed the case, mankind would've never advanced past very basic Neolithic settlements, since resources would be allocated in complete disorder as nobody would be able to determine their values through exchange. Ergo, you get an equally jumbled mess as that observed during a protracted barter economy. I understand that even the most ineffectual means of social organization can work for a small enough commumity, but for such a social unit to have made up the majority of human prehistory seems implausible. Plus the "interaction between strangers" that he brushes aside were hugely important for establishing trade and disseminating cultural practices. Could somebody from /leftypol/ explain how this doesn't completely contradict his theory? I'm gonna need something more precise than the economic relations being "transformed."

 No.69398

In reading on this issue, this article does a better job of dismantling Graeber than I ever could've hoped to, but I think my first post encapsulates a lot of the main ideas:

https://archive.is/G71Xk


 No.69399

>>69396

Someone screenshot this? It's a good rebuttal.


 No.69402

>>69398

Lel, apparently Graeber had a Proudhon-level meltdown and blocked Selgin on Twatter after he released that article:

https://archive.is/WwOWN

I really recommend you guys read these articles–Graeber's flagrant wrongness regarding Smith and Menger is some of the most hilarious shit I've read in awhile. Also, this article is good:

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/07/hummel_on_graeb.html


 No.69404

>>69396

what did david want to prove with this book?


 No.69408

>>69399

Screenshotting is not an arcane art. Do it yourself.


 No.69412

>>69404

1. Instead of the ubiquitous classical/neoclassical theory, Credit/debt/gift economies occur before the development of currency instead of debt, embodying an "everyday communism"

2. Economists r dum anthropologists r smrt

3. Markets poison communities


 No.69415

>>69408

From my shitty phone, you mean? I'll do it when I'm on my computer, but was hoping someone else could do it before.

>>69412

This about sums it up. Hard to get a coherent message out of it when most of the book are anecdotes. Ä


 No.69527

i have an impression that most if not all anthropologists are leftwing

do you know any rightwing anthropologist?


 No.69528

>>69527

There was one who wrote a book on the Yanomamo-tribe and their constant and brutal warfaring. Forgot his name, though. Not sure he was rightwing, but he apparently didn't have the tendency to fall in love with what he was studying. Many anthropologists do that, and that makes them resent western culture.


 No.69702

>>69402

> And what can we make of a scholar who actually takes seriously the suggestion that the U.S. government initiated the first Gulf War because of Saddam Hussein's decision to sell oil for euros rather than for dollars?

so why did the usa attack iraq? saddam had no nuclear weapon after all, i mean, there were no proofs for him having the weapon


 No.69721

>>69402

I looked at these articles now, and they're fucking hilarious. Debt is one of these books that is so complex and riddled with anecdotes on very specialized topics that no single person could hope to refute everything in it. The anthropologists don't understand monetary theory, the economists know too little medieval history, and the historians don't understand what the hell is so important about some obscure African tribe that sells its wifes and daughters. (All of them should be qualified enough in philosophy, however, to smell that there's something fishy about calling every act of kindness "communism").

>>69702

It was chemical weapons, not nuclear ones, that Saddam was supposed to have.


 No.69741

>>69702

Arguably still for access to oil and other "American interests" on the pretext of WMDs, it's just absurd to assume that Euros vs USD was the exact issue.


 No.69801

>>69721

so are there any proofs for him having used chemical weapons?


 No.69822

>>69801

No. And wrestling isn't real, too.


 No.69823


 No.69839


 No.71078

>>69396

http://gablog.cdh.ucla.edu/2017/08/absolutist-economies/

Also interesting reading here for post-ancap/nrx types


 No.71079

File: 40a13db3d082917⋯.jpg (21.56 KB, 452x480, 113:120, Adama_Glare.jpg)

>>71078

>What sustains the value of any currency, in that case, is the stability and reliability of the sovereign issuing and approving it. Rather than labor or subjective desire, currency reflects the “value” of sovereign security. If the sovereign will accept a certain amount of money to settle your tax bill, and maintains an orderly circulation of money, the value of money will reflect that.

Do you even Menger and Mises, you fool? Menger found out how barter economies develop currencies, and at no point is a sovereign of any sort involved. Mises found out that money retains its purchasing power because it had purchasing power in the past (for reasons Menger described), and people predict from this that it will retain purchasing power in the future.

Graeber was wrong to challenge any of that, and in fact his arguments completely miss the mark, for the most point, for reasons that I and many others have outlined in this thread. And as Tom Woods pointed out, what little evidence Graeber has that is somewhat relevant is not supporting his viewpoint. He did not, in fact, show that the first currencies were fiat. He at most showed that this is a possibility, but even that is a far too benign interpretation.

If Graebers theory was correct, then we would never expect a fiat currency to fail (when that has clearly happened, most obviously in Zimbabwe and Weimar), and we would not expect any currency to spring up that was actively battled by the state (also something that happened in places like Zimbabwe). By any standard - historical, a priori, "scientific" - Graebers theories fail. And I cannot take any economist serious who takes him serious.


 No.71083

File: 6c7f529879f4052⋯.png (416.6 KB, 600x604, 150:151, memecat_brain_damage.png)

>>71078

Graeber said that the sovereign creates the (special snowflake definition of) markets. This guy says that the disappearance of the state will create a new one driven by the military.

It gets even weirder after that.

>If the state always creates and sustains markets, starting first of all with meeting the needs of the state (provisioning its soldiers, etc.), an observation confirmed by the rise of the East Asian “tigers” (S. Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong) which not only had authoritarian rule but deep involvement in the production needs of the US Cold War military economy, then we can think about those enterprises most directly associated with the state as the epicenter of innovation.


 No.71089

>>71078

what is his definition of a sovereign?




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