/liberty/ - Liberty

>>66461

Communism would not exist if it wasn't for atheism and philosophical materialism.

Marx ardently praised Darwin and mentioned in his letters how the idea of evolution forms the basis on which communism is based on.

Same goes for the nazis. It's all about collectivism and god being the state.

>>66463

What do you think about agnosticism?

>>66464

It's the phase between theism and atheism. If you see it as a spectrum, agnosticism is basically in the centre or middle. Some only spend a short time being agnostic, eventually becoming a theist or atheist.

Others spend their entire life being an agnostic (or a deist) and don't really bother figuring it out.

It's not really a solid position. It's just: I don't know

>>66465

What about Apatheism.

Hasn't the Catholic church accepted Evolution by this point?

>>66475

Who cares about the Whore of Babylon?

The Roman Catholic church has been discredited and debunked centuries ago. The current poop is a Jesuit Marxist who thinks Muslims are our friends and atheists can go to heaven.

The RCC is known for its dozens of unscriptural heresies (Mary worship, praying to the dead, idolatry, satanism, on and on..). It's a dead, corrupt, paganized church founded by Constantine. I wouldn't trust these child-fucking latin priests one bit. They are known to compromise in order to `fit in´ with the world. It's not a surprise that they adopt whatever is popular in the current culture. The Bible tells us to be separate and apart from the world.

Catholics are not Christians.

>>66471

It's very similar to agnosticism.

I have to go for today, I'll just leave this video here. (tin foil warning): it's from a Jesuit insider and whistleblower that talks about how the Vatican created Islam for a very sinister purpose.

>>66487

>anything I don't like doesn't count as part of the economy

>also I want to destroy religion and culture and make everything about production while also somehow magically saying that my enemies are the ones opposed to spirit

>also liberalism totally encourages faith, I didn't make this up to try to invent similarities

Christians have been the ones fighting large government for hundreds of years, while atheists consistently favour a large, secular state, with or without nationalism.

>>66476

>praying to the dead

How is this a sin?

>idolatry

agreed, this always irked me

>satanism

Where?

I always took the passage about our spirit and flesh being God's Temple literally myself.

>>66502

Majority of the population of the USSR and it's satellit states was and is still religious. They're all also still different shades of Left Wing.

>>66505

You're really going to bring up the USSR?

You're just living proof of how fucking pathetic people are when they don't want to accept facts they don't want to believe in.

>>66487

>and both prommmmise an undefined heaven in the near future

It's like while typing that you ate some delicious cookies or something and you just had to express how good they were.

>>66501

<anything I don't like doesn't count as part of the economy

Intentionally misinterpreting his post doesn't make him wrong. He was clearly implying that religious leaders do not innovate nor do they build businesses. Personally I think that's debatable, but that doesn't mean you get to just tear apart a straw man and declare yourself victorious.

>>66506

It's entirely fair to bring up the USSR. Insulting him doesn't make him wrong. It's not illogical to assume that when you say "atheists consistently favour a large, secular state" you're alluding at least partially to the USSR. If you're not, many apologists do. It's part of the discussion whether or not you like it and being a cock about it doesn't make you more persuasive.

>>66508

The Church is part of the economy you buffoon.

It's as stupid as attacking an office worker for not being down a coal mine.

> Insulting him doesn't make him wrong.

No, he's obviously completely wrong anyway. But I'm just going to pour contempt on him, because he knows he's wrong.

>>66487

I wouldn't bother with the ethical stuff. Usually they just take it for granted that they can predict how values, faith, etc. changes individuals' behaviour. Most spiritual claims are based on some kind of assumption of the sort.

>>66458

So, where is that "evidence"?

I'll tell you. There is not a single piece of evidence that indicates the existence of any gods.

God is a mental disease, nothing more.

>>66487

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. - Mark 10:6

Marriage is a sacred act between man and woman.

Leftists want to deconstruct and destroy marriage as well as the family nucleus.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because it's full of blatant falsehoods, you clearly know zero about the basic tenets of Christian faith except for superficial straw man 'New-Atheist' meme garbage. Communism and leftist thinking is antithetical to Christianity.

Satan/Lucifer was the first social justice warrior.

>>66504

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?

As for satanism being practiced in the Vatican, look up Malachi Martin.

William Cooper also exposed their pagan occultism.

>>66515

>atheist asks for evidence

>link dump mountains of scientific, philosophical, historical and archeological evidence

>"nah i aint gonna read all dat shit"

Every time.

I've basically learned not to bother because you've already made up your mind and no amount of proof will convince you otherwise. Psalm 14:1.

>>66538

Asking the dead for intercession is not really 'consulting with the dead' in the way of being a medium or a shaman, which is what Moses was concerned with.

Catholics say it is no different than asking a living person to pray for you, which seems far enough.

The idea they can't intercede because they're in 'heavenly bliss' might be according to Scripture.

>>66515

Studies have shown that theism is completely normal whereas atheism is a mental illness.

I got bored with theism-atheism-debates back when I was still an atheist. I already know the arguments that atheists will bring up. Many of them are so stained with scientism that it's just no fun to even read them. Especially the bullshit about the efficacy of prayer. And don't get me started on their interpretation of scripture, that's shit is just ridiculous.

One if the primary reasons why I started to believe is because expediency and morality coincide so strongly. How do you explain that the most just economic order is also the one that is most effective? So far, I find intelligent design to be the best explanation for it.

>what age did you grow out of atheism

I was 18 when I realized how badass the Norse gods were, so I asked my Norwegian friend what are the best ways to please Odin and he said to aquire wisdom and valor. So I started reading and attending public lectures and the Allfather has blessed me ever since.

>>66544

Why are atheists so unfunny?

>>66545

He's probably on his first or second life. He'll get better at telling jokes after a few cycles. Unless he comes back as an owl. People lose all their sense of humor when that happens.

>>66546

cringe

>>66551

Now you know how I feel every time you post.

>>66552

i have a very distinctive style

>>66564

>Catholic circlejerk

>If you even remotely say anything bad about the RCC you get banned

No thanks.

>>66458

It's an older pasta sir, but it checks out.

>>66567

Ah, I forgot to mention that a lot of paranormal experiences ARE just mind games and one shouldn't immediately jump to the idea of ghosts or demons. High voltage frequencies can fuck with your head and produce visions when exposed to over extended periods of time, such as from a shitty circuit breaker.

>>66571

>While the belief in a god may be irrational to some extent, to claim that Christianity as a whole [believes this irrational thing] is a false dichotomy

You're a lunatic. Everyone who posts with that flag is either a crazy person or a troll. I sincerely hope they implement flag filtering for use primarily against you people and the communists. Not because you can't be argued against, or somehow you're mystically so persuasive the only way dissension can exist is by censorship, but simply because every time I see that fucking flag (or the communist one) it's nothing but the most draining, irritating bullshit beneath it.

If you somehow don't understand why what you said is insane, I can break it down. If believing x is irrational, even partially, and membership in group y is defined necessarily by belief in x then by definition anyone in group y believes x and is therefore irrational. Not only that but they take it a step further by sharing a group identity of irrationality.

Also, keep posting that smug anime girl. It makes your posts seem very sincere and logical, not at all like they might be meant to bother people or anything masturbatory.

>>66578

>>66578

As usual, ethics take the individuals' credit.

>>66576

Atheism is irrational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDX6F_O5XB0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrGVeB_SPJg

I always find it hilarious how you retarded new-atheists get BTFO, yet the next day you act clueless to how you have been destroyed over and over again, asking the same shitty questions that have been answered a million times.

You desperately want to believe in a straw man image of Christians, that is why it upsets you when you see Christians using logic, science and apologetics to defend their case. You are a dogmatic atheist who thinks he has a monopoly on science, when reality says otherwise.

Keep sucking Dawkin´s dick, you gigantic clueless moron

18.

Everyone goes through their edgy teenage militant atheist commie phase where they rebel against parents and authority because fight da system amirite?, it is pretty embarassing to look back to it.

>>66616

Why do you hate facts?

>>66625

no trolling plox

>>66501

>anything I don't like doesn't count as part of the economy

for you

>also I want to destroy religion and culture

religion=/=culture. Culture is defined by what people do, and people still live in the absence of a religion.

>and make everything about production

nope. nice strawman.

> while also somehow magically saying that my enemies are the ones opposed to spirit

not magically. I gave my reasons.

>also liberalism totally encourages faith, I didn't make this up to try to invent similarities

faith in 'the collective'. It's literally right there.

>>66502

>"Yes! let me just categorize the people who refuse a category in this context!"

>>66508

>It's like while typing that you ate some delicious cookies or something and you just had to express how good they were.

That's because I set the repeat rate incredibly high (250) because I want to increase my typing speed.

>>66513

then why bother arguing? they don't touch that part of a conversation for a reason.

>>66537

>But … - Mark 10:6

irrelevant quote.

>Marriage is a sacred act between man and woman. Leftists want to deconstruct and destroy marriage as well as the family nucleus.

And this addresses none of my points. They can't be divorced and sex is vieweeeed as a sin.

>I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because it's full of blatant falsehoods, you clearly know zero about the basic tenets of Christian faith except for superficial straw man 'New-Atheist' meme garbage.

wew lad. Maybe address some of my points instead of calling me names.

>Communism and leftist thinking is antithetical to Christianity.

They're both collectivist and rely on faith, and on the same side of the coin. Read my post again.

>Satan/Lucifer was the first social justice warrior.

oooooooooookay

>>66538

>link dump mountains of scientific, philosophical, historical and archeological evidence

youtube videos=/=evidence.

Either post it here or don't expect people to read it, because no one thinks you have, either.

>>66540

>youtube

>>66542

> because expediency and morality coincide so strongly

So that makes you donate to the church, hear what some guy has to say and basically believe in bullshit?

>>66567

>but I trust my instincts since they've almost always been right through my life, and my instincts tell me there's a God out there despite the evidence that might suggest otherwise.

literally "I don't have a sound argument for it but muh feels"

>Evolutionism and Creationism are perfectly viable with one another if you work under the assumption of God having a different sense of time than man (which makes sense given the nature of God).

your initial assumption is wrong.

>>66571

>it was largely believed that discovering the nature of the world brings us closer to god

not an argument, the church has had a large dichotomy between belief and practice.

>belief in a god may be irrational to some extent

It's irrational to a 100..

>rejects objective decision-making

That is its goal. People may differ according to their beliefs. I'm not arguing for some people, I'm arguing against the basic moral premise behind the idea.

>Belief in god is a "quirk" in objective reasoning

<anything I don't like = quirk

It's way more severe. It's a disability.

>>66578

>Christians as a whole are rational

According to your diluted definition of "rational".

AKA irrational.

>You can't take someone's opinion on one topic and use it as the basis for their entirety

Not attacking the people, attacking the idea. There's a ifference, and it makes or breaks a discussion.

>>66608

>yet more youtube

>>66610

samefag

>>66625

you forgot to use ">".

Why do you hate facts? Creationism is bullshit.

>>66634

Because it hurts your feelings, got it.

>>66636

Imagine being this retarded.

>>66636

People smarter than me didn't convince them, I'm not going to make a real effort at telling them they don't know what they think they do.

>>66640

Imagine not being able to support your own arguments.

After Lincoln was assassinated, New England preachers deified him, deified the state, and started comparing him to Jesus and Moses. Religion=/anti statist.

>>66759

>There is literally nothing else except material. What else do you want?

Spirituality. People like to feel there is meaning.

>BUT I THINK ATHEIST MATERIALISM IS CORRECT

Not the point at all.

>Sprituality is possible in one's work, without religion.

Okay, but how many people actually have access to this, compared to 90%+ Christianity we used to have?

>I dislike priests because they spread faith and disregard reason, and not because they aren't businessmen.

So what was the significance of your 'they don't build skyscrapers' comment?

>>66763

>Spirituality. People like to feel there is meaning.

Not a complete answer. Define spirituality and what it means in your context.

>like to feel there is meaning

nice assumptions, now prove that there is no meaning (because that's what you're implying). Also, not an argument. Wishing doesn't make it real, and believing in invincible sky-man is delusional.

>Not the point at all.

Not an argument. Elaborate or stop replying.

>Okay, but how many people actually have access to this, compared to 90%+ Christianity we used to have?

<people need something to believe in, they don't have original thoughts.

And no, you can't compare those two kinds of spirituality. Yours is false and mine is true because mine rests on reason, not fear (because of faith).

Just because there isn't someone telling you what to do doesn't mean you'll take orders from anyone. It's like you think people aren't alive.

>So what was the significance of your 'they don't build skyscrapers' comment?

First, that wasn't even in the post you quoted. Link to the post you're quoting.

It was in reply to a claim that said that the effects of the erosion of biblical values is being witnessed, and that atheists are crazy and are responsible for "degeneracy and subversion".

Biblical values aren't what's being eroded, individual values and capitalism are. Biblical values aren't responsible for the United States. Biblical values don't espouse the values of money or reason. Those are the values America was built on. When you say that SJWs are a response to loss of biblical values, you're saying that America was a christian nation in spirit. That is false. Europe fulfills that requirement.

>>66637

ok prove me that evolution is a scam

>>66463

There is nothing wrong with materialism and it being the root of statism is blatantly false. The Catholic Church was one of the most oppressive institutions on the planet for centuries, routinely lording about even secular rulers, to say nothing of the taxes and terror it imposed on its own believers. It was Protestantism that espoused the essentially anarchist notion of each man being his own priest. Statism/liberty and religiosity/secularism are orthogonal axes.

>>66769

>Define spirituality and what it means in your context

It means gol will send you to heck if you masturbate.

>>66476

>Catholics are not Christians

>Members if the historically largest Church which was the only option in Western Europe for 7 centuries are not Christians

This is what American Presby-Adventist-Evangelicals of the 1876 Convention ACTUALLY believe.

>>66778

Actually when you look at the secular states that existed around the Catholic church, the Catholics were largely the voice of reason/the moderates who told Western Europe to stop fucking torturing people among other things.

I don't even like catholicism that much as I think it's heresy to the one true Orthodox Church, but they were a good influence (compared to the alternatives) for their time.

>>66542

>efficacy of prayer

Jesus very explicitly promises to his faithful that prayer will be efficacious in Matthew. Saying "oh, don't bring up this conclusive refutation of my view, it's so tired!" does not invalidate it.

>>66782

The Catholic Church might well have advocated restraint in certain cases, but that was not my point. My point was that it exercised totalitarian power. It DID order secular authorities about, it did amass riches (often extracted by force or through psychological terror), and it did claim dominion over practically all aspects of the believer's life.

Thus the claim that atheism is the same thing as statism and that religion is the same as liberty is clearly rendered false.

>>66776

You first have to prove it´s real.

>>66776

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

>>66806

>OMG WHY ARE YOU HAVING A GOOD DISCUSSION!?

Go back to /pol/ or /leftypol/ if you want a hug box.

>>66789

no problem

>common DNA

>fossils

>evolution happening in front of our eyes- species in status nascendi, urban melanism

>vestigal structures

>homologous organs

>biogeography- no native mammals in australia except abos

>>66894

It's clear you've never seen a creationist vs evolutionist debate because all of these things have either been debunked or proven to actually support the creation model.

>>66974

You shouldn't have any trouble debunking it all here, then, if all the legwork's been done for you already.

>>66974

protip:okham's razor

>>67071

see

>>66805

>>66974

>>66894

There's a far easier and proven argument: dinosaur bones. Instead of trying to present evidence to the creationist about thus or that phenomenon, which he'll just dismiss as "debunked" somewhere, just grill him on where the hell dinosaur bones come from. When did they live and why aren't they mentioned in the Bible? It'll quickly degenerate into fairytales of them having coexisted with Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden, and having used their sharp teeth and claws to cut plants because the T-Rex was a herbivore. Oh, and they also all perished in the Flood. Isn't that right?

>>67187

Dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible, and ancient civilizations all talked about dragons.

The term `dinosaur´ was coined in 1842. Before that, everyone knew them as dragons.

http://www.genesispark.com/

https://www.trueorigin.org/

Historians like Herodotus, Marco Polo and even Alexander the Great mentioned seeing dinosaurs in places such as Arabia, India and China. There are even still reports of a long-necked dinosaur living in the swamps of Congo. There is also an old photo of a pterodactyl that was shot down during the U.S. civil war (the natives had tons of legends about the thunderbird, aka flying dinosaurs).

Recently they found fresh T-Rex tissue (with blood cells and all). This was the nail in the coffin for the ``millions of year´´ myth that they want you to desperately believe in.

Being in denial will not change history, commie.

>>67200

>Historians like Herodotus, Marco Polo and even Alexander the Great mentioned seeing dinosaurs in places such as Arabia, India and China

Citation needed.

>flying dinosaurs

Pterosaurs are not dinosaurs. Calling them dinosaurs would be like calling crocodiles dinosaurs, since all three groups are about that closely related to each other. There were flying dinosaurs that evolved and even exist to this day, but everyone calls them birds.

>Recently they found fresh T-Rex tissue (with blood cells and all)

Citation really fucking needed.

>Being in denial will not change history, commie

Even a stopped clock can be right twice a day.

>>67200

>>67214

PS depictions of dragons look nothing like more accurate reconstructions of dinosaurs and even the older, more lizard like art is only debatably draconian.

>>67214

He posted two links, are you blind?

>>67220

He can at least specify where on the website I can find the evidence in question. Linking the home pages of two websites, making a few ridiculous claims, and calling it a day is low effort as fuck.

I still go by Occam's Razor and only accept was is observable.

BTW why Christianity and not some other monotheistic or even polytheistic religion?

>>67223

The girl that introduced me to Christianity had dreams of Jesus, not Mohammed, Wotan or Hong Xiuquan. Nothing that would pass under the scientific method, but it's good enough for me. Also, Saint Charbel was a Christian too, and from what I know, he genuinely worked wonders and his body didn't decompose for decades. Not sure if it has decomposed now.

I already know the standard responses to claims like that. Some are circular, like when atheists point out that it's unlikely that the body of a saint would not decompose and therefore it must have decomposed, others sound like a cop out, like when they say everyone who claims to have had contact with God must be suffering from a mental condition. You don't diagnose people with schizophrenia over a single vision, at least make it a bit more plausible and pick epilepsy.

>>67224

Near death experiences tend to have the same effect.

People see Jesus in their visions, no matter what their ethnic or religious background is. There are plenty of testimonies on youtube from ex-muslims, ex-atheists, ex-hindus, etc.

The idea that NDEs are just a chemical reaction in the brain has been proven wrong years ago, because the witnesses can literally see and hear what is happening in the room (floating above their own body on the ceiling) and recount what happened, or even retelling what happened in the room next door. These things would be impossible if it was just a brain issue.

>>67224

>the girl that introduced me to Christianity had dreams about Jesus

I had a dream last night in which a restaurant appeared out of thin air. Each on of its rooms had foods from a different part of the world and there was bacon on the toilets.

>from what I know, he genuinely worked wonders

Can I see the public record of these wonders? Did he shift rivers around or raise the dead? Did he turn lead into gold?

>>67232

>The idea that NDEs are just a chemical reaction in the brain has been proven wrong years ago, because the witnesses can literally see and hear what is happening in the room

This is true in the sense that they had an experience of floating, but there has never been a demonstration of someone having an NDE (which can be induced) accessing information which he only could've gained by looking at the room from above. Thus can be easily tested by outting a piece of paper with a passphrase or a random number on it on top of a cupboard.

Saying that one really floated because one perceived himself as floating is as spurious as believing someone's claim to have flown because he perceived himself as flying while on LSD.

>>66780

…Not even a proper response.

>>67282

Yet us it not true?

>>67285

No, people don't go to hell for masturbating.

>>67289

I masturbate and I went to hell once.

>>67308

What was it like?

>>67289

Then why is masturbation nigh-universally condemned in Christianity?

>>67326

It was the same as Earth, except you aren't allowed to masturbate

>>67371

because it's committing adultery which is a sin.

>>67223

Has to deal with some of Aquinas arguments for the existence of God, as well as other philosophical positions. Either of the three Abrahamic religions, or even a Platonic conception of God all make sense. It just depends on scriptural interpretation and analysis.

>>67434

Apart from the fact that adultery is sex with a married woman… It does land you in Hell, then?

>>67435

Atheists cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman.

>>67434

Correction: It is lust. Lusting after a women, fantasizing about fucking them.

It starts in the mind, long before the act of masturbation itself.

>>67446

If you're not born again, you will end up in hell.

Your stance on Jesus Christ affects your eternal destination. The gift of salvation is free, it is up to the individual to accept or reject it.

>>67450

>The gift of salvation is free, it is up to the individual to accept or reject it.

Thank you (I mean it). However, apart from the Biblical account of Jesus simply not being true, the gift is not free at all. In practice, I'd have to waste my whole life being sorry for some sin, and there's an endless stream of hucksters, all eager to expand the definition of "sin".

>>67446

All sins, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can be forgiven. You just need to pray and repent.

>>67450

You're right it was lust.

>>67448

thief can find a policeman

>>67187

muslim girl i knew said that this is not a proof to evolution it just proves that different from today forms existed in past and disappeared