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File: b3e466c3fd7646d⋯.jpg (20.48 KB, 625x500, 5:4, b3e466c3fd7646de767174ccd4….jpg)

 No.62892

To what extent should a nation state and/or a government exist?

 No.62893

File: 8375c7f40df785d⋯.jpg (87.16 KB, 600x450, 4:3, 11163790_1626891270882992_….jpg)

>>62892

It shouldn't.

In an ideal world it should exist for the sole sake of defending from aggressors, handling inter-city commerce negotiations, interpreting law, etc. E.G. The three pillars of "Military, Courts, and Culture" or as some like to call it, "Property, Preservation, and Public Works." Some like to refer to it as a "Minarchist" state, and some insist we can go a step further and call it a "Night Watchman" state. We don't live in an ideal world though, so for all practical purposes, no state ("Anarchy") is preferable to a night watchman state.


 No.62971

>>62893

What happened there anyway? Some sort of algal bloom? And why is it EPA's fault?


 No.62976

Only for military defense and public services (police, hospitals, firefighters, etc).


 No.62977


 No.62980

>>62892

It shouldn't.


 No.62985

>>62977

> due to a fear of lost tourism

Fuck capitalism


 No.62986

If states are useless and unnecessary, why do they exist then?

Even since antiquity, you had city-states.


 No.62988

File: f8ec26a946797c0⋯.jpg (25.72 KB, 400x186, 200:93, 400px-Michelangelo_Sündenf….jpg)

>>62986

>If states are useless and unnecessary, why do they exist then?


 No.62990

>>62988

So it's because of the Fall?

You might have a point, considering ancient Israel was almost an ancap society (or libertarian theocracy) before turning into a monarchy.


 No.62996

>>62986

States have a use for those in power. The rest are too weak in mind and body to refuse them. That's where anarchist tactics split off : one is internationalist, the other more individual and concentrated. One tries to consume all, the other attempts to start small and lead by example.


 No.62997

>>62996

I feel like naturally a society grows into a state.

Just as socialism always fails, we always see tribal or anarchist societies eventually turn into states or monarchies.

I'm really interested in hearing how ancaps would stop this "human nature" to want to dominate others. A case can be made that most people are stupid and act like sheep. They need strong leaders that can tell them how the world works and teach them about life.


 No.62998

>>62986

because of breaking NAP


 No.63000

>>62998

How would you enforce NAP?


 No.63002

>>63000

ostracism of those not abiding to it for example


 No.63009

>>63002

What if the majority of people don't care about NAP?

Almost sounds like you need some 'over watch' group or organization that makes sure everyone plays by the rules.. aka a state.


 No.63012

>>63009

we need to change mentality


 No.63013

>>63012

..And what if people don't want to?


 No.63014

>>63000

>enforce

NIGGER NIGGER NIGGGER NIGGER NIGGER


 No.63016

>>63014

So you'll just let people walk over you.

Got it.


 No.63017

>>63016

in what sense? I just wont shoot them for wrongthink, if you think thats walking all over then you have got problems


 No.63018

>>63017

NAP only works if everyone thinks like that.


 No.63021

>>63018

>a principle

>dependent on others

the NAP isnt a thing that physically exists and can malfunction, it cannot fail at is goal because it has no goal or more accurately it is a goal

if you have an ideal or moral in your head, say for example the ideal that goats are for snuggle and not fuggle, and other people fuck goats, has your ideal somehow failed? no, those other people are just wrong.

lets say your ideal was one step further, that every person should defend goats from the welsh, and a welsh still fucks a goat even then it was not your principles failing but you.


 No.63022

>>63021

So what if most people don't care about NAP?

Your ideal is nothing but just that: an ideal. An illusion, a fantasy, a dream.

If you want an actual working and practical free society that ancaps envision, you need some way to encourage or "force" people to abide by the NAP.

You need more than just something visionary in your head. Commies and revolutionary socialists had visions and ideals.

So again, how would you make the NAP a real thing?


 No.63023

>>62997

> A case can be made that most people are stupid and act like sheep. They need strong leaders that can tell them how the world works and teach them about life.

The distinction here is leaders, not masters.


 No.63024

>>63022

>you need some way to encourage or "force" people to abide by the NAP.

Already done by default.

Why would a private company bother to go farther than protecting people form problems that go beyond the NAP? Start charging people for "crimes" with no victim and they would just lose supporters, so that's a waste of money. Start charging people for "crimes" like saying things you don't like? Holy shit, not only is it expensive sending cops everywhere, you're going after inane shit.

Why would a private security contractor arrest people for anything BUT the NAP? I do not really understand.


 No.63025

>>63013

Then they continue the way there are. There is no grand agenda to force everyone to be the way we want them to. Securing individual Liberty and preserving it is what AnCaps have been repeating for a while now. Relying on a grand Collective revolution from the masses hasn't produced any meaningful results.

Those that want to be free must support each other and help preserve the little they've got. The rest have no obligation to do anything but refrain from attacking.


 No.63026

>>63024

>>63025

Ok, I understand.

Now in the theoretical situation there is a war between an ancap society and a nation state.

Who has the advantage as far as military goes?


 No.63027

>>63024

He's being obtuse. I think he's trying to say we won't be enforcing any laws because the NAP is the only "Law" we need, which is not the case.


 No.63028

>>63026

it depends on the engagement of course, what do you have in mind?


 No.63029

>>63026

Depends if the AnCap settlements are economically connected to other communities that depend on them being at peace. How easy it is to invade and cut off the territory? How long can the invader keep funding his offensive? Would others just watch an unjustified war happen or will they actively intervene? Will the citizens of the State attacking approve and support it? Would it be worth it attacking a populace that is armed and prepared for just such an occasion along with the PMCs employed?


 No.63030

>>63029

This, and now if you take in consideration that the people of the country the government is invading have in fact destroyed their original government, why would a new government want to step in? They would get robbed by the people in here just as the previous government was. Its essentially land with negative value.

The other government would have military advantage though, I'll be honest with you, if only because they can redirect their money to warfare. But that comes with drawbacks.


 No.63031

>>63028

Full-blown war.

It seems like states have a natural advantage because of shit like conscription, arms races and using their entire nation's entire capacity for warfare whereas anarchist societies can easily have squabbles with each other, disagreement or even refusing to help one another.

Basically what I'm saying is: How would you prevent an ancap society from not being gobbled up by a neighboring state?


 No.63036

>>63031

>arms races

this should be an even playing field in that regard

if the ancaps are on the defense then not only do they all have a good reason to resist (or leave or hide) but they all have a ton of options, depending on what the state wants negotiation is a legitimate tool, and the state would under almost all circumstance be expending more resources then they gain from taking it so they want to end it as fast as possible, putting the ancaps in a more powerful negotiating position

I imagine many would leave when war came, taking their goods with them, this makes the land very unappealing, and the more unappealing it is to conquer the land the faster the state will peter out, and there are a lot of ways to make it unappealing


 No.63039

File: 47e90b4f6d215f4⋯.jpg (61.44 KB, 936x537, 312:179, mikedmorris87.jpg)

>>62997

AnCaps generally don't believe their society will be permanent, but a few hundred years as a stateless society would be enough time to lead to technical advances that allow for travel to the worlds' unknowns (seasteading and eventually space). As the Americas showed, people in the modern age generally don't want a government (such as the Pennsylvanians), and to some extent will fight tooth and nail to preserve that status quo. By leading by example, others would follow seeing how nice it is. While anarchy was possible in ye olde times, it made sense to have a government because of the fear of the unknown and threat of invaders such as Vikings. Nowadays where numbers/strength mean very little in the face of guns/goat piss bombs, and most massively destructive weapons such as muh nukes would be pointless to point at an anarchist society (as it would destroy the resources the state wants from them in the first place), also considering the age of technology and mass communications, the excuses for a government's existence are becoming null.

tl;dr- As I see it, if the difference between Mexico and the USA is 1% of economic growth over a century, then about 100-300 years of anarchy would be enough to spurr capital growth capable of getting man out to sea and up in space, at which point a government, no matter how totalitarian, militarily powerful, or resource-rich, would be unable to stop man from ruling himself.


 No.63040

>>63009

Why would the majority of people not follow the NAP? A group of men from the same cloth that disrespects the NAP will not suddenly enforce it if put in charge. Angel Theory is a shit and NAP is inherent to any functional society. It's a prisoner's dilemma, but it's one where cooperation is awarded long-term, and both economists and psychologists have shown the effectiveness of tit for tat.


 No.63044

File: e852b860600f76e⋯.png (438.77 KB, 750x1020, 25:34, e852b860600f76e6393224dd4a….png)

>>63022

Nigga I really want to just tell you to read a book. This whole thread reads like high NEETSoc. And some of the comments are skipping over rudimentary basics.

The NAP is an inherent principle. Rule of law could not exist if the NAP didn't exist. This is a general classical liberal principal that's been true since the dawn of man. A farmer in the 1600s had far less government down their throat and forensics weren't very far along so you could potentially murder someone in cold blood and never be caught doing so, yet surprisingly enough, people didn't go around murdering all the merchants and tradesmen because it wasn't in their own interests to do so, and because it was clear that others might do the sane if they were a mass murdering scumbag. You can break the NAP all of one time with someone before the tat part of tit for tat comes into the picture and you face the consequences of your actions. The NAP is just saying we'll cooperate until you give me a reason not to, which, surprise, other than mass murderers and sociopaths, all people already do. It's why we'd be able to have this conversation in real life without you shanking me a dozen times. See: investopedia.com/terms/t/tit-for-tat.asp

If you don't like the NAP, objectivists have a very mildly expanded version that covers social outliers like sociopaths, and even they "believe in the NAP," they just don't consider it an axiom.

>>63031

There's only a handful of reasons to start a war since it's expensive as fuck in the first place.

1) An Insider war, EG civil wars over irreconcilable differences relating to government, typically caused by some act like the state killing its own people (Voluntary societies are not privy to these, only states)

2) A war of retaliation wherein one country has done something to cause harm to another and it's retaliating against them. Once again anarchists are not privy to these because if a group decided to promote terrorism from within a Voluntary society (the only situation where this could happen), they'd quickly be ratted out since it's not worth a Voluntaryist's time or life to get involved in an international/political dispute of this calibre, thus a war would never ensue.

3) A war of expansion, in which the state wants the resources of an anarchist society. These are pretty much illegal as far as the international community is concerned, and a country dumb enough to perform this act wouldn't have the cover of retaliation as an excuse for their land/resource grab. This is ignoring the fact that it would be cheaper in virtually all scenarios for the state to just do business with anarchist companies (and the citizens would be PISSED when anarchy bison burgers suddenly cost 3x as much or aren't produced at all due to the war). Even assuming a state would be willing to ignore the sanctions and lost productivity resulting from the war because of some sort of rampant nationalism at work, anarchists still have the advantage between social media and the fact that the entire population is effectively the fighting force and therefore there will be no military bases or friendly locals to rely on in the region (this is the biggest contributor to the failure that has been our wars in the Middle East since the 70s). That faggot who sold you beef yesterday might have poisoned it because your soldiers shot his son, and he might have used the trade as an excuse to figure out your vehicle route in order to plant goat piss IEDs. They don't need superior arms, and it can be assumed that a state bold enough to attack a bunch of peaceful anarchists already has enough enemies that would take the opportunity to invade (or at bare minimum arm the state's opposition with modern weaponry).

Anarchists don't have to worry about a megastate because we assume governments might still exist around us and take that into account with "muh war" situations. We would rather coexist and be left alone while watching other citizens in their own countries bitch about wanting less government after seeing our results, than try to aim for some shitty global revolution.


 No.63049

>>63044

Thanks. I understand the NAP better now.


 No.63087

>>62892

National Defense, Ensuring natural rights and maintaining cooperation between members. That's all


 No.63163

File: b102ec86b681b73⋯.jpg (40.25 KB, 550x300, 11:6, stara baba.jpg)

>>63087

>natural rights


 No.63167

>>63163

Yes, God-given inalienable rights.

No man can override biblical or natural principles unless you're a godless commie.


 No.63227

>>62986

>why do they exist then?

Because superstitions are difficult to overcome. Because people raised in captivity develop a psychological dependency to being controlled.

>>62997

>I feel like naturally a society grows into a state.

Gonna need more than a feeling here.

>we always see tribal or anarchist societies eventually turn into states or monarchies.

Care to substantiate this claim?

>I'm really interested in hearing how ancaps would stop this "human nature" to want to dominate others.

You don't. Human motivation is multifaceted. It's ultimately self-interested. Some seek to dominate others because they anticipate that they can gain from it. Some number of them will always try. The best you can do is bring that number down, and failing that, make sure that the number who ultimately succeed is as small as humanly possible. Thankfully, the potential victims are self-interested as well. That means it's in their best interest to stop aggressors, or to minimize or reverse the damage they do to the greatest extent possible. This has the added benefit of ensuring that predatory behavior is as ineffective as possible.

This also doesn't have much to say against AnCap, since states have proven dismally ineffective at mitigating the supposed "human nature to dominate others", even going so far as to enshrine the practice in laws defended with the full lethal force of a nation-state.

>>62998

This is a bad answer, and it makes the rest of us look bad.

>>63000

>How would you enforce the NAP?

You don't. It's not legislation. It's simply a principle for identifying unethical behavior. You don't enforce it. People take various precautions to protect what is theirs, and the result is to make aggressive behavior riskier, less rewarding, and more costly. They do not do this because of philosophical convictions; they do it because it is in their direct personal best interest to prevent or resolve conflicts.

>What if the majority of people don't care about NAP?

This is answered earlier in this post. It has nothing to do with peoples convictions, and everything to do with their incentives to not be fucked with.

>Almost sounds like you need some 'over watch' group or organization that makes sure everyone plays by the rules.. aka a state.

What makes you think such a group must have a territorial monopoly on the service of defense? None of us are going to deny the need for specialized defense services, but surely it's in the best interest of the consumers of such services to have a competitive market in those services. If I don't like the way a security firm defends me from violence, I can stop paying them, and the worst they can do is stop providing me services. If I don't like the way a state defends me from violence, I have to pay them anyway or else they will enact violence upon me. I know which one I prefer.

>>63012

>we need to change mentality

If this is your mindset, then you've already lost.

>>63016

>So you'll just let people walk over you.

That's not what that means. You've confined your understanding of rules to legislation; the kind of rules provided by the state. You can absolutely have legal protection from aggression without declaring a bunch of universal commandments and hiring thugs to make sure nobody breaks them. Just protect what's yours. It's a fundamentally different approach.

>>63018

>NAP only works if everyone thinks like that.

Where do you get something like this? What does that even mean?


 No.63228

>>63022

>So what if most people don't care about NAP?

See above. They don't have to care. What they do care about is their own well being, and that's all you really need them to care about to make defense institutions work.

>you need some way to encourage or "force" people to abide by the NAP.

You mean by defending your self and your property? With "force"? You mean to suggest that people are incapable of doing this without socializing the cost of doing so? Somehow defense only works when monopolized?

There's a bait-and-switch with the word "force" here. The force used to defend one's property is only force in the same way that self-defense is "forcing" somebody to stop attacking you, but you're treating it like the necessity of such force proves the necessity of declaring a set of universal commandments and forcing everyone to obey them.

>You need more than just something visionary in your head.

Acknowledging principles does not indicate a lack of practical consideration.

>So again, how would you make the NAP a real thing?

Your problem is that you keep asking questions under false premises. The NAP is an abstract concept, and it's part of the reason why I shudder whenever people advocate for it; it leads to discussions like this where people treat it like a game plan. It is not. It is not legislation, commandments, or anything of the sort. It really shouldn't be a part of this discussion.

Now, if the question is, "How do AnCaps propose to promote a social order consistent with the ethics of non-aggression?", then there's some possibility of an answer there.

At its core, AnCap philosophy is itself agnostic on the particulars of that. Part of the confusion stems from the fact that the language surrounding such discussion is often couched in the nation-state paradigm. Anarcho-Capitalism, if anything suggests, that any solutions offered to a different problem be varied, voluntary, and permitted to fail. In general terms, AnCaps suggest that defensive services be provided by numerous means, conceived by whoever wants to take a shot at it. Inevitably, some of the solutions tried will include considerations and ideas such that no one person could anticipate them all. Some of those solutions will prove more successful than others, some will incorporate each others' elements, and others will simply fail to provide what consumers of those services need. Through a process of consumer selection, the solutions which best satisfy consumers' concerns will tend to emerge as most successful. Because consumers are diverse individuals, it is likely that multiple disparate solutions will emerge in a dynamic process of competition, innovation, success, and failure. In the case of defense, you could be looking at volunteer mutual defense groups, private security, insurance, militias, or simple informal systems like kinship groups, neighborhoods, or even just personal defense.

>>63026

>>63031

>Now in the theoretical situation there is a war between an ancap society and a nation state.

>Who has the advantage as far as military goes?

All other things being equal; the AnCap society.

1) Nobody can surrender on everyone else's behalf, making any invasion effort into an untenable war on a thousand fronts.

2) There is no tax system to capture, making it much less rewarding to capture such a region.

3) Being a free economy, it's likely that there will be much more to gain from trading with them than from invading them. The sheer capacity of productive output makes them far too sexy a trade partner to invade. Attacking them would destroy that productive capacity, and any international business with dealings in the AnCap region would be willing to throw a lot of money at preventing hostilities. Even without the economic differences, it's much more lucrative to trade than to invade.

4) Defense firms are capable of economic calculation, drastically reducing waste. No trillion-dollar planes that can't fly, since the projects can't be propped up by non-existent senators, and manufacturers have to compete with their products instead of their lobbyists.

Of course, an enormous nation-state with a massive military apparatus could easily steamroll a tiny anarchist thorpe, but that has nothing to do with their forms of social organization and everything to do with sheer size. A state would be even more vulnerable were their sizes reversed.

>>63039

>AnCaps generally don't believe their society will be permanent

I would go so far as to say that AnCaps don't support the idea of a single AnCap society. Being pluralistic, we tend to support countless simultaneous societies operating in the same geographic regions, permitted to succeed and fail, rise and fall, naturally. Allowing free entry and exit in these societies and not tying them artificially to monopolized necessary services means that their fall will not be catastrophic when it comes.


 No.63233

>>63228

>Being pluralistic, we tend to support countless simultaneous societies operating in the same geographic regions, permitted to succeed and fail, rise and fall, naturally. Allowing free entry and exit in these societies and not tying them artificially to monopolized necessary services means that their fall will not be catastrophic when it comes.

Well that's a given, I simply meant a "society" in the sense that AnCap is a distinct entity compared to, for instance, a state.


 No.63586

>>63228

>conceived by whoever wants to take a shot at it.

wanting =/= doing


 No.63635

>>63586

An economist might argue that if you don't actually try to do it, you didn't really want it.


 No.63645

>>63635

>if you don't try something you don't want it

That's so stupid I won't even bother with reductio ad absurdum


 No.63991

File: 6870be5c7be3796⋯.gif (96.61 KB, 380x220, 19:11, islam10.gif)

>>63167

which god?


 No.63998

>>63991

The God of the Bible.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Yahweh, Jehovah, Yahuwah.

The LORD of Hosts.

The Creator of the universe.

He that knitted you in your mother's womb.

That God.


 No.64002

>>64000

I already told you, the God of the Bible.

Are you dense?


 No.64006

>>64005

Holy shit you're retarded.


 No.64078

The state serves the purpose of a warden, ensuring order and stability, and thus requires the power to create and enforce laws but should not have the power to create any without fierce debate and democratic elections beforehand.

The state is NOT a babysitter who's supposed to take care of you.


 No.64093

>>64008

Researching some linguistic issues and dealing with translation errors is par of the course for old documents. You'll have to deal with conflicting translations of ancient philosophers, too. I don't hear complaints about that, yet when it comes to the Bible, the "translation errors" and "inconsistencies" suddenly turn it unreadable. Why?


 No.64143

>>64093

I really wish I had that picture of the KJV vs. The Jehovah's Witnesses bible.

The reason certain separate denominations of Christianity even exist is because of mistranslations and modernization of the bible. The meaning of the words themselves are changed. Not that a decent English translation of the bible exists.


 No.64163

>>64140

>Which one of the holy books is the correct one

I prefer KJV my self.

>Which one of the numerous splinters is the correct one?

Well that's the issue many new converts and even older Christians ask, it boils down to looking into what each group believes and looking for yourself if you find it worth joining. There isn't a concrete answer for this I'm afraid, though if you want a suggestion I'm baptist myself.

If you realize that everyone is a sinner, understand the penalty of a sin is death, and accept the Gift of Salvation, you're a Christian. If a denomination do not do these things, they're not Christian as this is fundamental for Christianity.

<tl;dr: "use KJV, Read the bible and do a little research into denoms and think it over"

God Bless you Anon.


 No.64171

The KJV is the best Bible in the English language.

As for denomination, God looks at the heart. Being a Christian is about having a relationship with Christ. Believing and accepting Jesus Christ into your heart, who He is and what He did for you.

Look at Charles Lawson's sermons on YouTube.

Also Roman Catholicism is a satanic, apostate, pagan church.


 No.64263

Can you retarded Christcucks fuck off from my board?


 No.64266

>>64093

>You'll have to deal with conflicting translations of ancient philosophers, too. I don't hear complaints about that

Are you kidding me? Do you know how autistic searching for the correct translation is already? I have to beeline to the translation that says "Literal" because at least then I can see what he actually means, somewhat, instead of the translator's personal opinions getting into the mix of it. You must be some sort of dunce if you genuinely believe that there's no legitimate trouble over ancient philosophers being mistranslated, because there would be if people actually cared.

Now you get the translation of your book, and its a even bigger mess. Papal revisions and all that fucking crap, there are emotions involved in most translation works, so the bullshit increases because of those shitty translators who are borderline euphoric in the middle of the translation.

Fuck you fuck you fuck you fucking reee.


 No.64270

>>64266

You missed the point entirely. Or maybe I was ambiguous, I don't know.

I'm not saying there aren't problems. I'm saying that of course there are problems with such ancient texts but when it comes to most of them, everyone with some education knows that already and is prepared to deal with it. No one in his right mind would assert that we will never have a grasp on Aristotles ''Metaphysics"' just because you cannot translations at face value.




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