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File: eee767767dd55a5⋯.jpg (91.37 KB, 640x436, 160:109, serveimage.jpg)

 No.48667

Ancaps LITERALLY CAN'T solve global warming. And you will NEVER EVER be able to deal with sea level rise or desertification. By 2050, people will be begging for a strong, socialist state to save them from flooding and famine.

 No.48668

>>48667

>muh global warming

>actually being real

[Citation Needed]


 No.48669

>>>>48668

You only condemn your movement to the irrelevance it deserves when you deny reality. Your denial proves you are incapable of handling the crises we face.


 No.48672

File: 53ccd04a8733042⋯.jpg (2.25 MB, 2448x3264, 3:4, 53ccd04a8733042b95521ffd05….jpg)

/liberty/ literally wants this beautiful flower of a human being to drown to death or become a climate refugee?

Why would you do this /liberty/? Why would you destroy the life of this gorgeous creature?


 No.48674

global warming is to /liberty/ as the holocaust™ is to /pol/

They're both promoted to the hilt by government-employed intellectuals as ideas useful for legitimating what the government wants to do anyway.


 No.48675

File: 1f4f0ca3aec9b54⋯.png (408.39 KB, 960x720, 4:3, m1j1xSPwKkc - 00:08:53.png)

>>48669

Even if he was wrong, how's the state dealing with it? Oh right, they're making it worse and there's no relief in sight.


 No.48676

wait so how would your socialist utopia government solve climate change then?


 No.48677

File: 5ebe842dd0e6d75⋯.jpg (35.54 KB, 551x416, 551:416, 26243101.jpg)

>>48675

The bourgeois state is only making it worse in the sense that it allows the capitalists to continue making things worse. And why would it do otherwise?

A firm Leninist state with an ecological commitment would be able to fully counteract and manage global warming. Cuba is the only country on earth that provides a good standard of living to its people without destroying the environment. We are headed to a socialist revolution on a massive scale.


 No.48679

File: a4775f17e4accd3⋯.gif (2.99 MB, 355x201, 355:201, lateral sluts.gif)

>>48677

>Cuba … provides a good standard of living to its people


 No.48681

>>48677

>we need moar planets!!!!

>most of the earths land mass isn't even inhabited or effectively utilised for production

Call me when the middle east is so heavily utilized for farming it appears dark green from space

Also this >>48679


 No.48682

>has to deny accepted science for your ideology to make sense

hmmm


 No.48683

>>48682

>global warming

>science

Pick one, science follows the scientific method, climate bullshit doesn't.


 No.48684

>>48679

>what is human development index


 No.48685

File: 061a1629bd56ad8⋯.png (15.26 KB, 745x460, 149:92, serveimage.png)

>>48679

Yes, it does. Cuban life expectancy is slightly higher than American. Deal with it.

>>48681

>Call me when the middle east is so heavily utilized for farming it appears dark green from space

Are you literally smoking meth?


 No.48686


 No.48688

>>48681

You're right. Even if we run out of the Earth's resources, we can always buy another one :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

The free market always fixes everything, amirite?


 No.48690

>>48685

I'd rather kill myself than live in Cuba tbh. Not that I would live long, given their contempt for libertarians. >>48594


 No.48691

File: 868f0754c607ad9⋯.png (446.02 KB, 1500x2000, 3:4, 1440813604782.png)

Do we really need to have this thread every week? Fucking bleeding heart shitheads GTFO.

I believe my response here is good enough for this bait thread: >>47297

But if that isn't clear enough for you…

A) AnCaps are not currently the ones in power. Hell, not even libertarians. Address your grievances to those that matter for solving immediate political issues.

B) AnCaps don't need to solve global warming. Entrepreneurs just need to find innovative ways to reuse pollutants that doesn't involve wasting profits. That's all that needs to be done, nigga. Shit, the solutions are in front of us already (such as nuclear) if people would actually listen.

C) By 2050 I expect to be off this rock and mining asteroids. We'll be able to afford biodomes and sea platform property at that point.

tl;dr- get rekt faggot


 No.48692

>>48676

Probably by rationing people to a chicken and 5lb bag of potatoes/rice every month like Venezuela. :^)


 No.48693

>>48685

>life expectancy = standard of living

Topkek

>Are you literally smoking meth?

My point was we are currently vastly under utilising the available resources given our current technological capabilities.

>>48688

That wasn't my point shitpost-kun.


 No.48694

File: 9e617a65a143fb9⋯.jpg (940.46 KB, 1456x2592, 91:162, do_you_think_this_is_a_mot….jpg)

>>48677

>Cuba … provides a good standard of living


 No.48695

>>48667

>believing in man mad global warming

>believing that even if it were true that humans could do anything about it

Wew lad


 No.48696

File: 04a265843a2208e⋯.jpg (129.37 KB, 640x640, 1:1, 1424664207990.jpg)

>>48685

>Life expectancy is slightly higher than American

That's because the Cubans literally require women to go through constant checkups, and the baby is aborted by government mandate if it's found to have any genetic defect whatsoever. That's before they cook the books. Are you promoting eugenics now, faggot?


 No.48698

>>48696

>eugenics

If that's the case I'll need to reconsider my opinions on Cuba…


 No.48699

>>48698

forgot my flag


 No.48703

>>48690

I'd rather kill myself than live in ancapistan… but that's NOT AN ARGUMENT.

>>48691

Pollutants are waste matter. They're not fucking useful.

>>48696

>Cubans require people to see a fucking doctor for free, hence their highl life expectancy is cheating!!!


 No.48708

>>48703

>Pollutants are waste matter. They're not fucking useful.

This commie is right, you know. There is literally no financial reason for car manufacturers/oil producers to try and trap the CO2 that cars produce. While there are individual situations where the gasses CO2 and CO would be useful, there are far better ways to collect them. In a limited number of cases, recycling is profitable, but the majority of recycling programs need to be subsidized.

>higher life expectancy

I'd guess it has to do with them not drinking shitloads of carbonated high fructose corn syrup water and getting diabetes, but you could chalk that up to government subsidizing shitty corn farming.


 No.48709

>>48703

>>48708

I remember seeing an article that had this device that sucks the CO2 from the air and turns it into crystals or something. They started using them in China and it works apparently.


 No.48712

File: 19ee584e5c7d833⋯.png (100.67 KB, 1755x1067, 1755:1067, co2 emission.png)

File: 8fc9bf9b77b3d3f⋯.png (312.2 KB, 2558x1274, 1279:637, co2 emission2.png)

File: 85b30aa9ddf6782⋯.jpg (129.47 KB, 964x559, 964:559, co2 emission3.jpg)

>>48691

In post-industrial societies, CO2 emissions haven't decreased enough (and they are still the ones producing the most (per capita) in many cases), and it's increasing in the developing world too fast, and we haven't even considered that what if African countries will start industrializing?

>What we are effectively asking, if you actually care about climate change, is if first world countries have a right to demand other countries to live in poor living conditions on behalf of climate change. Does the USA have the right to bomb the shit out of India if India's citizens simply want to live to the same living standards as US citizens?

Fuck their living conditions, the whole Earth is in danger ffs. Of course, outright nuking them is just ridiculously crazy and retarded, but there are diplomatic options you know.

>the free market can fix everything, you know magic and shieet

No. Why would companies drastically increase their production costs? To fight against a threat which people can't perceive with their own eyes? They might do to an extent which is enough to make themselves look good, but nothing more.

Most advancements at fighting climate change have been achieved by government programs or the government regulating the private sector. Also I think reducing the quality of life is justified if we do it in order to save the Earth.

>By 2050 I expect to be off this rock and mining asteroids. We'll be able to afford biodomes and sea platform property at that point.

How will those solve climate change? Pls explain.

Also >capitalist system relying on highly expensive future innovations to not to collapse on itself


 No.48713

>>48712

>Fuck their living conditions, the whole Earth is in danger ffs. Of course, outright nuking them is just ridiculously crazy and retarded, but there are diplomatic options you know.

I would also like to add that even it would be pretty hypocritical from the US to fuck with India when they are a lot worse at per capita emissions.


 No.48714

>>48667

>By 2050, people will be begging for a strong, socialist state to save them from flooding and famin

Like the last billion times someone said that about the future. You're literally getting spooked.


 No.48715

>>48703

If America forced people to see their doctors at gunpoint and didn't give them the luxury of wide choice of food, I'm sure they could crank out a few years as well. But that ain't freedom, buddy.

How about this as a thought experiment - why do so many people flee Cuba to come to America but so few do the opposite?

>>48709

Guanidine? That's some pretty neat stuff. I don't know if it's in use for carbon dioxide capture but it sounds like an interesting solution. I think you can even find it in bat shit. 10/10 environmentalism right there.


 No.48717

File: 4a54ce2df00b415⋯.jpg (376.58 KB, 1798x1324, 899:662, 1399841956863.jpg)

>>48667

>By 2050, people will be begging for a strong, socialist state to save them from flooding and famine.

>the economic policy most famous for famine and death will save people from famine and death


 No.48718

>global warming real

> ancaps LITERALLY CANT do something simply because they are not forced to

and finally, as I can see in other posts in this thread

>socialism, the thing responsible for carbon emissions RIGHT NOW would do better.

wrong on all counts


 No.48741


 No.48745

File: fb165f8f258ce67⋯.jpg (51.39 KB, 530x500, 53:50, 0v9lpZa.jpg)

>>48741

Jews. This is how crazy Jews are.

"Author Biography Daniel Greenfield is an Israeli born blogger and columnist, and a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center. His work covers American, European and Israeli politics as well as the War on Terror."

>Shillman Fellow

http://www.horowitzfreedomcenter.org/shillman-fellows

K E K


 No.48746

>>48709

>I remember seeing an article that had this device that sucks the CO2 from the air and turns it into crystals or something. They started using them in China and it works apparently.

Also, plants to the same thing and convert it to glucose, but that's not really the point. What I was getting at was that there's no reason for the polluters themselves have no reason to prevent the pollution.

Here's a question for you ancaps, let's pretend for a moment that global warming is actually as bad as the worst predictions say (IRL, there are a multitude of models out there predicting a variety of things, but this is a thought experiment for the sake of argument). That's a lot of externalizes to take into account, and given how the gas dispersal functions, would have to apply to everyone else in the world. How would anclapistan deal with that?


 No.48751

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>48667

>sea level rise

reduce carbon footprint with nuclear and other alternatives

>desertification

solved by introducing livestock grazing

all of these are free market solutions


 No.48752

>>48685

>believeing statistics of an authoritatian regime

cuba excludes abortions in calculating life expectancy

also, they disallow 3rd party analysts in their country


 No.48753

>>48712

>Why would companies drastically increase their production costs?

They wouldn't, which is why they would want to recycle pollutants. Gasoline used to be a pollutant from the manufacture of kerosene until Standard Oil found use for it in fuels and lubricants.


 No.48762

So because global warming does not align with the ancap ideology, as saving the enviroment could never be profitable, ancaps just say it's not real?

I thought they were the 'rationals'.


 No.48766

File: 759ea6d1fd8aad8⋯.jpg (45.82 KB, 415x484, 415:484, i came here to honk at you.jpg)

>>48751

>solved by introducing livestock grazing

>ancap farmers don't give a shit if they eat all the grass, they'll just find somewhere else with more grass

>livestock eats all the grass

>roots no long hold soil in place, we now get a dustbowl and all the topsoil blows off

>most land is now desert again


 No.48771

>>48715

>If America forced people to see their doctors at gunpoint

THIS IS WHAT ANCAPS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

>didn't give them the luxury of wide choice of food

Twelve kinds of potato chips and soda are not a luxury, it's just shit. Cubans have plenty of healthy food variety from local markets.

>why do so many people flee Cuba to come to America but so few do the opposite?

Why do way more people flee from capitalist Mexico, Honduras, Colombia, and so on? Cubans at least are guaranteed citizenship, the immigrants from all the other countries aren't even legally allowed in. To answer your question, people leave Cuba because it has a stagnant economy, which is caused by the embargo.


 No.48772

>>48741

OP here, we literally do need the death penalty or life in prison for oil company CEOs and their paid shills.


 No.48773

>>48751

>reduce carbon footprint with nuclear

Yes please, give me anarchist privately owned nuclear power plants.


 No.48774

File: 94d29346dca8848⋯.png (263.61 KB, 1000x1000, 1:1, 1424902153276-4.png)

>>48712

>Why would companies drastically increase their production costs?

You keep assuming companies will increase their production costs. You're looking at this purely from a political standpoint instead of an entrepreneurial standpoint.

From the perspective of a business, if I can save money, I will save money. Pollutants are wasted byproduct- every time I create a pollutant, I have wasted money. Eventually I have to ask if the pollution I've created is worth the investment at current technological levels to prevent it, this is just being practical, but I am always interested in ways to save money. Saving energy saves money. Repurposing pollutants saves money. If I can't recycle that part of materials I use, then currently either laws are in the way (as is the reason we can't use depleted uranium and most waste- disposal laws are a bitch), or technology hasn't advanced enough yet, but is on the way if people really do consider this an issue. See >>48753

>Most advancements at fighting climate change have been achieved by government programs or the government regulating the private sector.

Most of our problems today with climate change has been with government programs or government regulating the private sector. Tesla can't sell nationally because of government. We're still using coal/oil instead of nuclear because of government subsidies. I can guarantee you that people would be rationing energy much better or switching to alternatives much faster if the government didn't subsidize every other business in the energy industry.

>>48746

>How would anclapistan deal with that?

I hate these questions since there's no solutions being proposed by opponents. Fortunately, AnCapistan has a clear solution for the pollution problem today. It's called property rights and entrepreneurship. People have an incentive to provide responsible stewardship when they own shit. People have a desire to build inventions to clean the environment/simultaneously make money for themselves and for businesses when there's a demand. Climate change obviously has the demand, otherwise we wouldn't have so many faggots raving on and on about it, so maybe they should look into entrepreneurial ways to solve the problems. Without coal/oil subsidies, the incentives to invest in clean energy such as nuclear go through the roof. The AnCapi solution is literally as easy as give people an incentive to keep their shit clean by letting them actually own it.

>>48762

Have you read nothing? Get your head out of your ass and use your shit-stained eyeballs.

>>48766

>Dustbowl

You mean the result of government subsidized crops combined with a government-inspired war overseas? You mean the result of a decades-long drought because they didn't realize the great plains alternates between a "wet season" and "dry season" about once every decade or two? The dust bowl was caused by wheat, not cows. If anything, the cows were helping to prevent it from hitting even earlier. Cattle actually ensure stronger root growth so long as you rotate where they eat. The number of cows have very little to do with overgrazing, it has to do with having them eat the same grass every year.

And farmers actually have an incentive to prevent overgrazing and promote soil conservation even with regular crops when strict property rights are in place making them responsible for their land/responsible for the outcome. Farmers have to be pretty fucking intelligent your autistic faggot. Go work a bison farm for a summer like I did in my teens, and you'll understand this. Stop treating farmers as if they don't know this shit already.


 No.48776

File: d26f3d9020c223e⋯.jpg (157.41 KB, 578x712, 289:356, serveimage.jpg)

>>48774

>Pollutants are wasted byproduct- every time I create a pollutant, I have wasted money

So why don't you eat shit? It's wasted byproduct, if you don't eat it you're wasting money!

>Most of our problems today with climate change has been with government programs or government regulating the private sector. Tesla can't sell nationally because of government.

LOL, this is literally a Sam Hyde TED Talk-tier argument. Tesla can't solve shit.

>We're still using coal/oil instead of nuclear because of government subsidies

No, it's also just cheap as fuck. But yes, the capitalists who run the coal companies do bribe the bourgeois state into giving them subsidies.


 No.48777

>>48772

What about governments and their paid shills in academia, at NOAA, at IPCC, etc. How is that any less of a conflict of interest?


 No.48778

>>48777

There is a conflict of interest. The bourgeois state frequently pressures scientists to make more cautious estimates about global warming. The scientists all complain about this. The reality of global warming is very likely to be worse than the mainstream NOAA, IPCC, etc estimates.

However, if your question is why these scientists shouldn't be put to death like the oil company shills should, the answer is simple. The oil company shills have helped condemn millions of people to death by starvation and poverty, and have put us on the path to trillions of dollars in property damages. The scientists were trying to PREVENT that from happening.


 No.48781

>>48776

>So why don't you eat shit?

It is recycled as compost

>Tesla can't solve shit.

Not an argument

>No, it's also just cheap as fuck.

Nuclear has about the same LCOE cost ($95/MWh) as conventional coal


 No.48784

>>48781

>It is recycled as compost

Only in compost toilets or 3rd world shitholes.

>>Tesla can't solve shit.

>Not an argument

No, it is an argument. I'm arguing that Tesla can't solve shit, it simply isn't a solution to global warming at all. You simply can't address desertification and sea level rise with a fucking luxury battery car.

>Nuclear has about the same LCOE cost ($95/MWh) as conventional coal

And? Coal is cheap as fuck.


 No.48788

>>48778

You completely fail to understand the government's interest in anthropogenic global warming. Government functionaries seek to enlarge their power, and anthropogenic global warming narrative assists them in this to a massive extent. It is virtual carte blanche for the state to insinuate itself into every activity of civilized people, as almost all involve energy inputs that supposedly must be regulated to save the planet.

The international organizations pushing climate change even admit in their conference materials that they would want the same policy outcomes even if climate change were not an issue.

The governments of the world employ their court intellectuals to bolster the justification for total state control and global government through "climate action."


 No.48789

>>48766

Livestock grazing tramples grass down onto the dirt, and leaves behind manure, causing the soil to retain moisture and fertilizing it. Some are even using targeted, intensive grazing to re-green desertified lands, and it works. Federally-managed land often desertifies because the feds try to keep grazing animals off of it for fear of overgrazing leading to desertification, only to have their fears come to life because there's nothing contributing to the plants' soil management.

Second of all, private land owners tend to take care of their land. It's when they're given access to land they don't own that they strip it and move on. Logging companies given access to public land clear-cut it and move on because that's what they paid to do, but when the own that forest, they re-plant trees in rotation so that they can continue to make a profit off of that same land.

>>48771

Sure; just keep telling yourself that the embargo caused that.

>>48776

>So why don't you eat shit?

You do. It's called manure. They just have to process it through soil and plants first. Welcome to reality.

>Tesla can't solve shit

Except appealing rooftop solar, and home battery power storage, and sporty, attractive electric cars, and some precursors to self-driving cars, and reusable space launch vehicles, and….

>the capitalists who run the coal companies do bribe the bourgeois state into giving them subsidies

And if the state didn't exist, they'd have nobody to bribe. They'd have to compete in the marketplace properly against nuclear. That means they both get to bargain on even terms on where they can build a plant, they get no special subsidies, and they have to calculate their costs based not on regulatory overhead, but on the resource and labor cost of manufacture and maintenance, as well as on liability for potential externalities. They can't just buy a pollution permit against local property owners' wills, and if they put out damaging pollution, they don't just pay a paltry fine and keep on with it; they have to personally reimburse everyone harmed. That's much more expensive than paying off the EPA, so they'll have to be much more careful about their outputs.

>>48778

>The bourgeois state frequently pressures scientists to make more cautious estimates about global warming.

That's literally the opposite of what's happening. The scientists who make the most dire predictions attract the most grant money. Anybody who suggests it might not be a big deal gets no prestige and hardly any funding. The existing business interests want environmental regulation. It increases entry costs for potential competitors. They're big enough already to absorb the costs of new regulations, but a newcomer isn't yet established enough to afford compliance. The folks pushing the global warming narrative are making lots of money off of it.

>The oil company shills have helped condemn millions of people to death by starvation and poverty

Erm, how? I mean, I've got no love for anybody who lobbies the government, but… how?

>>48784

>Only in compost toilets or 3rd world shitholes.

Modern farmers still use manure for agriculture. Maybe not some of the larger ones (I'm genuinely not sure and too lazy to look it up right now), but the small and mid-sized farms still use plenty of shit in their fertilizer.

What? Did you mean human shit? 'Cause you didn't say human shit. I'm pretty sure using human shit to fertilize commercial crops is illegal, despite the fact that it can be made perfectly safe with thermophillic composting. If it were allowed, it would likely create a nice partnership with wastewater management and agriculture, reducing the costs of both.

>Coal is cheap as fuck.

He just pointed out that nuclear costs just as much per unit electricity as coal, making it similarly cheap as fuck, suggesting that a lack of subsidies and regulatory overhead would have them on even economic footing, possibly leading the cleaner of the two to win out for a relative lack of liability payments.


 No.48790

>>48789

>Sure; just keep telling yourself that the embargo caused that.

Embargoes on capitalist countries like Iraq actually have caused mass famines. So what are you arguing, embargoes are meaningless and the American bourgeois is doing it for no reason?

>>48789

>And if the state didn't exist, they'd have nobody to bribe.

If the state didn't exist, the proletariat would seize your precious private property. You ancaps are delusional.

>>48789

>The scientists who make the most dire predictions attract the most grant money

No, they get fucking blacklisted. You probably think the "most dire predictions" are two meters by 2100. The reality is probably going to be three or more meters.

>The existing business interests want environmental regulation. It increases entry costs for potential competitors.

Why fucking bother with environmental regulation of all things? They can just use patent law, hostile takeovers, paramilitaries, or plenty of other methods to push around small competitors. Not to mention, "upstarts" all depend on investment from the same big investors anyway, so it's meaningless from the perspective of the biggest capitalists.

>>The oil company shills have helped condemn millions of people to death by starvation and poverty

>Erm, how? I mean, I've got no love for anybody who lobbies the government, but… how?

Because sea level rise and desertification are going to cause just that to happen.


 No.48791

File: cc24f9e7413d1fe⋯.webm (662.48 KB, 640x360, 16:9, technical_difficulties.webm)

>>48776

>>48784

>So why don't you eat shit? It's wasted byproduct, if you don't eat it you're wasting money!

Funny you should mention shit since I've worked for a shit processing facility. You're not too far off in that shit is recycled. Let me briefly explain how shit is processed here in the land of the free…

1) Water is removed from the shit

2) The shit is fermented for about 12 days to remove harmful parasites and to turn it into something that can actually be used. During this time, it's constantly stirred to remove the methane (which some facilities use for power generation), and bacterial foam begins to generate in the tank. The tanks regularly have to be pumped down during the process to ensure that the bacterial bubble-sludge doesn't reach the sensors at the top, otherwise we have to go in and scrub it. We keep the tanks fermenting at about 96 degrees Fahrenheit during this whole process, and have to keep it at a constant temperature to ensure the EPA doesn't bitch about minor microorganisms being released into the environment.

Then, the processed sludge is turned into cakes to be put back on the land/in landfills to act as fertilizer. Right now there's talk around the world of extracting the phosphorous from your shit in order to use it as fertilizer as well.

So yes, whenever you buy local produce, there's a high chance that you're eating shit.

>LOL electric cars can't decrease pollution! Lets ignore the government regulations preventing them from being sold to the consumers, reducing the costs of electric cars to lower than that of traditional gas-fed vehicles!

No comment.


 No.48792

>>48778

>The bourgeois state frequently pressures scientists to make more cautious estimates about global warming.

Why would they do that? Maybe now under Trump you might be right, but the trends show the opposite for the last 24 years.

>The scientists all complain about this.

The only thing I hear scientists complain about is not having the budget they want. You know what engineers do when they don't have a big enough budget for their research project? They do what they can within their budget and then use the results as a business proposal to increase their budget.

>The reality of global warming is very likely to be worse than the mainstream NOAA, IPCC, etc estimates.

When this climate change shit has been going on since the 70s, and every prediction up until now has turned out to be scaremongering, I have a hard time believing that. Back in elementary school they were telling all of us about how by 2008, anyone living in a city would be dealing with acid rain. I've yet to experience acid rain nearly a decade later.


 No.48793

File: 7ce15f1869b7a36⋯.png (102.17 KB, 500x500, 1:1, think_about_it.png)

I want to make something clear here from a libertarian perspective: Yes, companies should be held liable for pollution to an extent since they are producing it on their property (you are liable for damages caused by your property even in AnCapistan). Yes, we should reduce, reuse, and recycle where we can as this process should save companies money.

That being said, you all are co-conspirators in pollution. If the company is at fault for producing the pollution, then you are a co-conspirator for wanting nice things that are created in ways that also create pollution. You are a co-conspirator for using energy produced by coal. You are a co-conspirator for using plastics produced from oil refining. To claim you are somehow exempt from this system because "you didn't produce the waste" is intellectually dishonest and asinine.


 No.48794

>>48792

>Why would they do that?

Because the bourgeois state is still dominated by energy industry interests.

>the trends show the opposite for the last 24 years.

What fucking trends? What the fuck are you talking about?

>The only thing I hear scientists complain about is not having the budget they want.

Then you're not even listening.

>When this climate change shit has been going on since the 70s, and every prediction up until now has turned out to be scaremongering,

You have no evidence for this claim. Many predictions that were made as far back as the 60s have turned out to be true.

>Back in elementary school they were telling all of us about how by 2008, anyone living in a city would be dealing with acid rain. I've yet to experience acid rain nearly a decade later.

So your teacher was a tard, so fucking what? Meanwhile, in China and India, we have the worst smog in history, all thanks to the production the west has outsourced.


 No.48795

>>48793

>That being said, you all are co-conspirators in pollution. If the company is at fault for producing the pollution, then you are a co-conspirator for wanting nice things that are created in ways that also create pollution. You are a co-conspirator for using energy produced by coal. You are a co-conspirator for using plastics produced from oil refining. To claim you are somehow exempt from this system because "you didn't produce the waste" is intellectually dishonest and asinine.

AYYLMAO, ancaps are suddenly now moralists. No, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Individuals have no choice about what system they live under. It is idiotic and impractical to demand that everyone "disconnects" from society.


 No.48800

>>48795

>It is idiotic and impractical to demand that everyone "disconnects" from society.

Then you inherently understand the need for pollution. Problem solved.


 No.48802

File: da47e318da34f2d⋯.jpg (38.57 KB, 520x658, 260:329, dudeweed_lmao.jpg)

I'm heading out for the day, but before I do, I'll leave one more free market solution to pollution in the form of dude weed lmao.

Industrial hemp is one of many small solutions that can make the environment a better place by reducing the number of trees that need to be cut down/cotton plants that need to be produced. Industrial hemp was outlawed by the US government until 2014. It is still outlawed for anything other than "research purposes."

The free market has the cure to the environmental crisis if y'all would just fucking listen.


 No.48803

>>48800

>Then you inherently understand the need for pollution. Problem solved.

The need for pollution UNDER CAPITALISM. But that doesn't solve the problem. The solution is socialism. You ancaps, who have put up an utterly pathetic showing in this thread, will be lucky if the people let you live after they see what the market has done to their lives. You will be AFRAID to argue in public that global warming is a hoax, or that the market can fix it, because people will get violently angry at you.


 No.48804

>>48802

Absolutely pathetic.


 No.48806

>>48803

If socialism is the solution, then why is the USSR responsible for the largest environmental disasters in the history of mankind, including draining an entire sea in Kazakhstan? Like I said. I gotta go, but I'll just leave this here as well.

>>48804

Go deepthroat a cactus.


 No.48809

>>48806

>If socialism is the solution, then why is the USSR responsible for the largest environmental disasters in the history of mankind, including draining an entire sea in Kazakhstan?

The USSR was locked in a siege mentality and focused on competing with the capitalist countries. Modern Cuba proves that socialism is the solution. Not only does socialism make it possible to have a sustainable economy, but an authoritarian, Leninist state makes it possible to manage the land reform, mass relocation, infrastructure plans, and so on that climate change will demand.

>Go deepthroat a cactus.

Enjoy your visit to the fucking gulag, class traitor.


 No.48810

>>48771

http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/venezuela-is-out-of-food-heres-what-an-economic-collapse-really-looks-like-02132016

>In 2013, many began to suspect that the outlook for Venezuela was grim when prepping became illegal. The Attorney General of Venezuela, Luisa Ortega Díaz, called on prosecutors to target people who are “hoarding” basic staples with serious sanctions.

>Shortly thereafter, grocery stores instituted a fingerprint registry to purchase food and supplies. Families had to register and were allotted a certain amount of supplies to prevent “hoarding.”

>Then, just over a year ago, it became even more apparent that the country was falling. when long lines for basic necessities such as laundry soap, diapers, and food became the norm rather than the exception. Thousands of people were standing in line for 5-6 hours in the hopes that they would be able to purchase a few much-needed items.

>As the situation continued to devolve, farmers in Venezuela were forced to hand over their crops last summer. They assumed control of essential goods like food, and began putting retail outlets out of business. Then, once they had control of the sales outlets, they began forcing farmers and food manufacturers to sell anywhere from 30-100% of their products to the state at the price the state opted to pay, as opposed to stores and supermarkets.

>This January, the government told citizens that they would need to produce their own food. The Ministry of Urban Farming was created to oversee this. While self-reliance sounds great, it isn’t so great in Venezuela. Just so the urban farmers don’t get too self-reliant, a registry of the crops and livestock will be required. (And obviously, they’ve already proven that they have no issue forcing farmers to hand over what they’ve produced.)


 No.48811

>>48810

Venezuela has failed because they didn't abolish capitalism.


 No.48812

>>48809

> Modern cuba proves that socialism is the solution

What the fuck are you talking about?

>Venezuela has failed because they didn't abolish capitalism

How much more do they have to abolish? They've already screwed over a majority of the country's businesses and enterprises. They have nationalized virtually everything within sight and it has proved to be absolutely disastrous, just how much more do they have to abolish to reach this paradise exactly?


 No.48814

DUMB

they meassured the surface, but you gotta measure the atmosphere! how can they be so dumb?


 No.48816

>>48793

actually good point

t. commie


 No.48817

>>48812

> What the fuck are you talking about?

Read the thread, dumbass.

>How much more do they have to abolish?

Private ownership of the means of production.

>>48816

>t. ancap pretending to be a commie

all commies know there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.


 No.48818

>>48790

>So what are you arguing, embargoes are meaningless and the American bourgeois is doing it for no reason?

No; I'm saying that an embargo alone isn't enough to render an economy on fertile ground incapable of producing food. Furthermore:

>Despite the Spanish-language term bloqueo (blockade), there has been no physical, naval blockade of the country by the United States after the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962.[4] The United States does not block Cuba's trade with third parties: other countries are not under the jurisdiction of U.S. domestic laws, such as the Cuban Democracy Act (although, in theory, foreign countries that trade with Cuba could be penalised by the U.S., which has been condemned as an "extraterritorial" measure that contravenes "the sovereign equality of States, non-intervention in their internal affairs and freedom of trade and navigation as paramount to the conduct of international affairs."[5]). Cuba can, and does, conduct international trade with many third-party countries;[6] Cuba has been a member of the World Trade Organization (WTO) since 1995.[7]

They can trade with anybody else. What, is the United states the only country that can support other economies through trade?

>If the state didn't exist, the proletariat would seize your precious private property.

Or (more likely) die trying. Like I wouldn't insure my property against your dumb asses.

>No, they get fucking blacklisted.

[citation needed]

>They can just use patent law,

They do. It's not enough. This approach has some limitations and hazards. If you make patent law too restrictive, you wind up unable to use technology you already have that you've copied from the other entrenched interests.

>hostile takeovers

Harder than it sounds.

>paramilitaries

Leading an aggressive paramilitary organization in a developed country is a good way to get shot, since you're not the only one on the block with the cash to hire out guns, and people don't take kindly to wolves in their midst.

>or plenty of other methods to push around small competitors.

Again; they do. Environmental regulation falls under the umbrella of "plenty of other methods".

> Not to mention, "upstarts" all depend on investment from the same big investors anyway

Well right now they do, because of how heavily they've entrenched their positions thanks regulatory restrictions, but there's no telling when a big fish from another pond is going to try and move in on your turf.

>Because sea level rise and desertification are going to cause just that to happen.

Well you've got your own ideas about sea level shit, so we'll just leave that aside for now, but what do oil company shills have to do with desertification? That's bad land management, not fossil fuels. If you look at the land that's turning into deserts, I bet you'll find that the overwhelming majority of it is publicly-managed, while privately-owned and managed land is doing fine.

>>48794

>Many predictions that were made as far back as the 60s have turned out to be true.

[citation needed]

>Meanwhile, in China and India, we have the worst smog in history, all thanks to the production the west has outsourced.

You're looking at an economy that suddenly transitioned from agriculture to industrial production. You're going to get pollution. Give it a generation or two and people will start prioritizing air quality once they're sure they'll have enough to eat thanks to the increased economic activity. Negative externalities are growing pains of an economy. They improve, typically long before regulation gets involved.

>>48795

>ancaps are suddenly now moralists

As if "don't attack people" was ever not a moral message.

>No, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

It's not the consumption that's the problem. Most of the intervention causing these abuses is on the production side, since it's easier to control.

>>48803

>>48809

>Capitalism, despite resulting in the greatest improvements in quality of life and reductions in pollution, is responsible for all suffering and pollution.

>Socialism, despite resulting empirically in greater suffering and pollution, is only a victim of capitalism.

Prove any of that.

>>48811

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAAHAAAAHAA!!!!!!!

Really!? ''Really!?" After all that, your response is "the country that made individual production of food illegal and carefully tried to control everything people did and produced failed because it was just too capitalist".

Fantastic. I mean; wow. Who's your dealer?


 No.48819

>>48752

>>48696

>muhbortions

lol who cares

>>48685

that's because americans eat shitty food, but the market will fix it

look at the success of whole foods!


 No.48821

>>48817

>class

>ethics

those are spooks. we only respect facts.


 No.48822

>[socialist country] did nothing wrong!

>gulag!

>class traitor!

>it's not real socialism!

That puts you one off from getting commie bingo. If you post a picture of an iPhone that has resist capitalism written on it, you'll win a free helicopter ride.


 No.48823

>>48818

>an embargo alone isn't enough to render an economy on fertile ground incapable of producing food

And the embargo hasn't done that to Cuba, considering that they are largely self-sustaining.

>Or (more likely) die trying. Like I wouldn't insure my property against your dumb asses.

Sounds like a state to me, faggot.

>what do oil company shills have to do with desertification?

WHAT DOES GLOBAL WARMING HAVE TO DO WITH DESERTIFICATION?

>As if "don't attack people" was ever not a moral message.

AYY LMAO. And you faggots claim to be rational.

>Really!? ''Really!?" After all that, your response is "the country that made individual production of food illegal and carefully tried to control everything people did and produced failed because it was just too capitalist".

Yes, since Cuba is proof that socialism works. Venezuela shows that halfassed reforms can backfire, since they don't liquidate the bourgeois.


 No.48824

File: ad0110ea8d26f98⋯.jpg (1.29 MB, 1944x2592, 3:4, cuba1.jpg)

>>48817

>Cuba

> Read the thread dumbass

You've proved nothing on the matter.

> b-but they live longer!

And? How does that actually prove anything? You're not taking into account numerous other factors which could influence this outcome and why it may not mean much but somehow you throw it up as if it = standard of living when really, it doesn't.

>Private ownership of the means of production.

They've been working on it, and again, it has not been beneficial at all to the Venezuelan people who are essentially struggling to even survive at this point.


 No.48830

>>48824

> They've been working on it,

Doing it slowly doesn't work. They needed a communist revolution.


 No.48831

>>48823

>they are largely self-sustaining

Only insofar as they still exist. They're still recycling decades-old imported goods to get by. They fry up freakin' orange peels for food. That's hardly a thriving economy. If cutting off trade with one country does that, then they're only barely self-sustaining if at all.

>Sounds like a state to me, faggot.

>Oh no! That guy won't let me steal his stuff! Help! A statist!

You've got a fucked-up idea of what a state is.

>WHAT DOES GLOBAL WARMING HAVE TO DO WITH DESERTIFICATION?

Three degrees celsius over a century aren't going to desertify land. In fact, the most prolific period for plant life in geologic history was warmer and had several times the atmospheric carbon that we have now. They have a name for that time period: The Carboniferous Era. Turns out that plants like sunlight and carbon dioxide, and they're really good at retaining soil moisture.

>And you faggots claim to be rational.

Because "don't attack people" is irrational….

>Yes, since Cuba is proof that socialism works.

You keep saying that, but you haven't actually provided sufficient support for it. Your sole piece of evidence so far is is "they live longer than Americans", despite the thick network of rational problems with that structure. Quantity of life is hardly a reasonable metric for quality of life, and using the United States as a benchmark for economic freedom is a joke. You're going to need to make a stronger case than that.


 No.48834

>>48830

> Doing it slowly doesn't work

Except they haven't been doing it slowly, they've actually been rather speedy on the matter. but even if they were supposedly slow on the matter, how would that change anything? One would think that even small changes would assume some sort of long-term improvement such as that seen in China, which had made slow changes since 1976 and has benefited largely from capitalist reforms all the while Venenzuela has made changes in the opposite direction and has suffered as a result.


 No.48866

File: 8def4bb624b9509⋯.jpg (25.11 KB, 385x265, 77:53, co2bycountry[1].jpg)

File: 18e800687eff7d9⋯.jpg (213.23 KB, 1440x1223, 1440:1223, the union of soviet social….jpg)

Socialists couldn't solve global warming you retard.

This is the grand delusion of /leftypol/: that a collectively organized society wouldn't just destroy the environment as fast as capitalism in a tragedy of the commons scenario. We know this happens. EVERY SOCIALIST STATE BECOMES AN ENVIRONMENTALIST DISASTER GIVEN TIME. NEITHER BUREAUCRATS NOR ANY FORM OF CONSENSUS-DRIVEN WORKER OWNERSHIP MODEL GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT THEY NEVER HAVE AND THEY NEVER WILL

You retards WORSHIP industry and you expect us to believe you wouldn't deforest the whole of Siberia if it wouldn't make us work in your """"""""dream state"""""""" 12 hrs/day. Your heroes are invariably those who have destroyed vast swathes of their ecology in their mad campaigns and five year plans.

>30 years after Chernobyl and people try to tell me socialism could ever solve the environment


 No.48876

File: 8460612300f4920⋯.png (104.05 KB, 922x625, 922:625, co2 per capit.png)

>>48866

>first image

Not per capita

And those countries aren't socialist anymore


 No.48881

>>48876

>Argues for collectivization

>Claims that per capita matters

They were leading co2 producers when they were socialist you fuckstick.


 No.49524

>Ancaps LITERALLY CAN'T solve global warming. And you will NEVER EVER be able to deal with sea level rise or desertification. By 2050, people will be begging for a strong, socialist state to save them from flooding and famine.

I almost debunked this, but then I realized that you could just claim that I hadn't used

>real capitalism

>real socialism

In my arguments. Then again you don't know what either of those are.


 No.49546

>>48819

It's not that they just exclude abortions, it's that they kill small defective children, and don't count them in their statistics.


 No.56583

I'm a minarchist, but let's imagine for a moment ancap was coherent, and implemented.

What happens?

Instantly no more subsidies to oil companies, and roads are funded by user fees rather than by general taxes.

I wonder what that does to carbon emissions?

>when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.


 No.56587

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

 No.56591

>>48684

A load of shit that's designed to make socialist shitholes look better than they are. It measures quality of education by years of mandatory schooling and healthcare by expenditure.


 No.56592

>>56583

>minarchist

>uses the Objectivist flag

Also, why did you have to bump all those dead threads?


 No.56596

>>56583

But also no fuel tax, road tax, or green energy subsidies


 No.56599

>>56596

Why would those be necessary?


 No.56600

>>48684

HDI is complete shit. As of 2010, it measures four variables:

>Life expectancy at birth

Capped off at 85, so there's not a whole lot of room to improve here.

>Mean Years of Schooling

>Expected Years of Schooling

Quality of schooling isn't measured at all. If your students go to school for seventeen years but spend ten of these years reading Max Barrys entire body of work cover to cover, over and over again, the HDI will give your country a top-score, and you will be more distinguished than if your people were immortal. True to the democratic spirit, it also matters preciously little whether your country has a low level of education overall or just a low median with an excellent

>Income

Measured in gross national income at purchasing power parity per capita, a metric dependent on GDP, which measure economic activity more than the fulfillment of need and is easily overblown by additional government spending. GDP and the derived statistics are rough indicators of economic development and nothing else. Also, this is capped off too, I think at $ 75000.

Also, notice how non-material factors like freedom and happiness are not measured at all. Which wouldn't be a problem if the index didn't call itself the Human Development Index. I'd say that development implies more than just riches, academic credentials and bodily health, but then again, I am consistently less of a vain bastard than the people that complain the loudest about the profit motive.

As a general thing, you should never cite an index unless you can vouch for its methodology. Sadly, most indices that are readily available on Wikipedia are not that good, or are even trash. The HDI belongs to the latter category, but there's worse.


 No.56602

>>48677

breh, the Soviet Union, and PRC were just as big of polluters as the US.


 No.56606

>>56602

This.

If we take the amount of control that a government has on the market as an indicator of environmental wellness, then I am going to bet we will see a relationship with the size of the bureaucracy and the deterioration of the environment. North Korea, China, Soviet Union. In a free market if people decide that eco-friendly is valuable they will spend money in that direction leading competing companies to aim to be more eco-friendly. In socialism there is no competitive incentive. Plus the inefficiency within socialism does not allow the state to react within any reasonable speed to correct its environment hazards.


 No.56607

>global warming

we will move toward poles

>sea level rise

it is not a problem

>desertification

we will breed camels and ostriches and offer quad and 4x4 trips on deserts


 No.56612

>>48667

Assuming that global warming is indeed happening, there are

non-coercive methods of solving it, through the market. Take the Seasteading Institute, for example. One of their secondary goals is to cultivate algae, which are very efficient at absorbing greenhouse gasses from the atmosphere. If there weren't any restrictive regulations preventing them from cultivating algae, it would already be done by now. And that's just one solution. In a free market, there'd be many more.

Isn't freedom wonderful?


 No.56663

>>48795

Are you fucking retarded? Have you heard about amish? Under a libertarian society you could live however the fuck you want so if you want to live in da woods as long as you respect private property. Amish are the best example of just getting some private property and doing this so get fucked.

It's NOW under the shitty state that since we are forced to pay taxes and all the bullshit that we need to follow the system because if I don't I go to jail so I need to act like a good goy.


 No.56670

>>56599

Without them, there would be more C02.


 No.56671

File: 8b0c3d12f8bd958⋯.png (367.96 KB, 748x365, 748:365, ClipboardImage.png)

>>56602

Depends what you mean


 No.56694

>>56596

>>56670

>Without [fuel tax, road tax, green energy subsidies], there would be more CO2.

I really ought to just say "prove it" and leave it at that, but my hands got ahead of me, so here goes:

You can argue that a fuel tax can be said to be a disincentive for driving, so lets give you that one.

A road tax you have to pay whether you use it or not. That means you've already sunk your funds into it, not only guaranteeing that resources will be used on roads whether people use them or not, but also encouraging people to "get their money's worth". That means more driving and thus more carbon emissions.

And "green energy" subsidies? You do realize that "green energy" alternatives pollute more than the fossil fuels they seek to replace, right? Hell, I studied thermodynamics with one of the engineers who designed the new solar plants they're building these days, and he pointed out that when you look at construction, operation, and maintenance across the life of the plant, compared to the overall power output, it's several times worse per unit energy produced than a classic standard coal plant. It's more expensive, requires much more land to produce the same amount of energy (tearing up habitats), produces dangerous heat and light pollution, and utilizes all sorts of exotic materials that have to be mined and manufactured at great environmental and financial cost.

And that's not getting into wind, either. Wind is even worse.

"Green energy" is just another corporate cash grab. If it was viable, it wouldn't need a subsidy. It spends resources tearing up the environment for less payoff than tried-and-true tech. These technologies should still be in the research phase if at all, not thrust prematurely onto the market. That just makes it harder to adopt them if and when they finally are ready, because everybody remembers it as "that thing that failed and was a total disaster".


 No.56729

>>48788

Interested in seeing these documents if you've got them.


 No.56735

File: 6cb8c24f0a36791⋯.jpg (861.44 KB, 1024x870, 512:435, AralSea1989_2014.jpg)

>>48677

>A firm Leninist state with an ecological commitment

Didn't go well with the Aral Sea


 No.56737

>>48685

>Cuban life expectancy is slightly higher than American.

Cuba doesn't include abortions in their statistics. Also, they do not allow third-parties to verify their statistics.

>HDI

Their HDI is low relative to developed states.


 No.56745

>>56694

>A road tax you have to pay whether you use it or not. That means you've already sunk your funds into it, not only guaranteeing that resources will be used on roads whether people use them or not, but also encouraging people to "get their money's worth". That means more driving and thus more carbon emissions.

Don't know how it's calculated but where I am it depends on how many and how heavy a car you own (also now, with recent changes, how polluting your car is).

Reduces driving on net, unless people are highly irrational

>You do realize that "green energy" alternatives pollute more than the fossil fuels they seek to replace, right

I didn't know that


 No.56750

>>48784

>I'm to good to productively use my waste products like some poor person

Pathetic. Communists claim to be all about being down to earth and everybody's comrade, yet they are the most materialistic, snobby people you could ever meet.


 No.56759

>>48876

The problem with saying per capita statistics matter more/less in this scenario is that the economic system will have a direct impact on the birth rate.


 No.61507

File: 239c9d45d2fcee6⋯.png (686.48 KB, 536x506, 268:253, ice age era.PNG)

>>48667

No one can stop climate change because we are not god. We are aheading in the ice age in 2030-40 so better invest in the winter stuff.


 No.61510

>Ancaps LITERALLY CAN'T solve global warming. And you will NEVER EVER be able to deal with sea level rise or desertification.

Neither can anyone else, my personal solution is to nuke China and India into a parking lot. Even then my solution is simply delaying the inevitable though by a hundred years or more fuck those countries are overall terrible for everyone involved why do they exist fuck

Basically humanity is fucked in the long run and you'd best get over it you naive little red.


 No.61515

>>56750

This so goddamn fucking much. With all their talk about how inhuman and objectifying capitalism is, you'D think they would be the first ones to ask a waitress how her day was, or to give away their unnecessary extra income to the poor instead of buying themselves more shit. Consumerism is terrible, after all.

But nope. If anything, they will deride these things as just keeping capitalism alive (unlike the minimum wage, somehow). Goddamn fucking pricks.


 No.61528

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>48667

You cannot control long-term planetary climate change. Perhaps one day when we advance to a type 1 civilization on the Kardashev scale, but that is still 200+ years off. In terms of worrying about short-term pollution, there is very little choice in alternative energies that don't themselves cause their own pollution or environmental damage. Honestly, one of the major problems, if not the most major problem, is the regulatory bodies that keep innovative technologies from entering the market. If we could get regulations out of the way, we could have Thorium plants starting up here in the US pulling from our own supply of rare earths in Pea Ridge Mine within my state, and from other sites out west.

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-03/rare-earth-mine


 No.61529

You're a horrible person and should feel shitty. Don't fucking necro threads this fucking old.

I'm about ready to start some vigilante justice and sage spam old threads so they can't be bumped.


 No.61731

Suppose it were real. Consider how many people believe it to be real and are willing to donate to solve the problem. Consider how many people are willing to buy Teslas and metal water bottles before plastic ones.

Why, don't you think the free market could adequately solve the problem were it real. It already sort of is.

>inb4 muh tesla subsidies.

>inb4 tesla creates more carbon

Billions of VC dollars and stockbuyers are buying into companies that are attempting to solve climate change. There's no avoiding that. So quit worrying about it and, if you actually believe in Al Gore's bullshit, try investing in solutions you bleeding heart faggot.


 No.62005

>>48784

we will kill all socialists and in this way depopulate earth to stop global warming




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