/k/ - Weapons

>>651696

Considering the Japanese got shitstomped every time they tangled with the Soviets and they never managed to defeat the Chinese who had a massive host of problems themselves I doubt it.

Best case, they make some progress along the Transsib, worst case they lose Manchuria by 42/43 and have the Red Army camping on the Yalu river.

the burgers would once again jump in to save the soviets

>>651700

They got shitstomped because they have never tried to fully attack the SU.

Their major force is still spent doing China occupation.

Now the proposal is: to have peace with Chiang Kai Shek, meanwhile fortifying Manchuria and supplying it with troops.

Chiang Kai Shek himself had no love for communists.

>>651701

How would they though? The northern Pacific sea has only Japan supremacy since the SU navy is shit.

Let's just say that after France gets fucked, Britain doesn't want to deal with another shitty war. No wunderwaffen, no radical shift in war strategy, Britain just doesn't have the heart for it. A peace treaty is negotiated that satisfies many of Germany's territorial claims and many of the restrictions placed upon the country are removed. What happens in the next five years? Does Germany still go after the USSR? Would Stalin be more prepared now knowing that Germany isn't occupied with the Western front? Does Poland get back the territory seized by the USSR if war breaks out, or if it doesn't? What happens to the Jews? What about America's role on the world stage? Do we see the emergence of a US/Europe/USSR 3-way cold war? And probably one of my bigger questions overall, would the world overall be a better place if Britain had just negotiated a peace treaty in mid-1940?

>>651706

Germany would become the master of Europe and might actually be successful in attacking the SU since most of the resources are moved up East.

Also, Germany is free to plunder North Africa since the brits cuck out.

Yeah, there's a lot Germany can do if Britain surrenders or negotiates a pact.

>>651706

Germany should had given up its Lebensraum autism and only annex the territories lost to the Poles in WW2+Austria+German Sudetenland+Alsace after the war. Great Britain shouldn't had start a war against Germany since the only thing they achieved is they gone into a huge debt and started to lose its control over their colonies. Now the Soviets should had to be annihilated during the war, but it only would had been possible if either Germany defeats Great Britain or Great Britain stayed out of the war. Also the Japs should had attack the Soviets the moment the Germans attack them and make a ceasefire with the Chinese.

>>651759

Hearts of Poz IV, the game that if you decide to be a bad goy and ally yourself with the axis, you'll have to tardwrangle hitler from charging straight onto maginot line.

>>651880

The only places there aren't any oil fields are places that haven't been surveyed. It's produced when methane turns solid, which it does under the pressure of the ocean on top of it. Then the continental shelf rolls over the frozen methane, which then under extreme temperature and pressure turns into heavier hydrocarbon rings. It's not rocket science, if dead dinosaurs made fuel how come Triton is literally 90% fuel oil? Space dinosaurs? It's a dumb hypothesis that doesn't even make sense, life isn't common enough to create fuel and life tends to re-use its component parts without letting any of it go to waste.

>>651771

go suck some tranny cock, dumb lolberg

>>651772

Arabs had no love for the British

Arabs loved Hitler because ostensibly he was going to deal with the zionists in Palestine that had been blacklisting Arab workers and had gotten the British army to intervene read; kill a bunch of Arabs for daring to defy the Chosen after the Arabs protested this policy The great Arab uprising of 1936-1939

Had the German army punched through in South Russia, into Albania and Azerbaijan, I have no doubt that Iran would have joined the war on the side of Germany.

>>651771

>rightful place on a stake next to each and every other of their degenerate kind.

But who is going to be doing this act though

>>651696

It's unlikely that dedication to the Strike North strategy alone would avail the Japanese. The Anglo-American muppets, pawns of world Jewry, will do everything in their power to drag their nations to war, willing or otherwise, with the new powers on the rise. Palingenesis, rebirth, cannot be allowed. In one of few or perhaps the only essential truth of the Why We Fight films, it's laid out clearly that if the Axis runs riot over Eurasia & Africa and has time to breathe, America is finished in the long term in resources and manpower. Furthermore, Chiang cannot be trusted even if an individual peace is achieved; although he was doggedly against Mao and wished to throw everything against the communists even as the Japanese were on their doorstep, he had no love lost for Japan, and doomed his nation by forming the United Front at gunpoint rather than martyring himself.

The way the Axis wins is simple; no half measures from the late or even early '20s and '30s onwards. No half-revolutions, like Mussolini's government by royal appointment compromising his ability to radically restructure Italian economy and society; Hitler's betrayal of the SA and the social nationalists to appease the military-reactionary junkers who would scheme to assassinate him and to deliberately sabotage the war effort time and time again - while somehow killing Kurt Schleicher, who had duped himself to Hitler's benefit, was a friend of Rohm, and could easily have been a convert and useful bridge negotiating between the SA and the Reichswehr in the formation of the Wehrmacht- rather than keeping his old loyalties, convincing and subordinating the fractious elements of his middle path of state capitalism, preserving old firms with confirmed loyalties and nationalizing others, and the need for the Second Revolution to be largely more institutional than apocalyptic, and purging the definitely traitorous minorities among both right and left; and the Emperor Showa eventually denying his divinity postwar, after destroying the fanatic loyalists of the Kodoha who would have handed him greater nominal or even true autocratic power on a silver plate, though doubtless under the obligations of Ikki Kita's 'people's emperor' concept, and been able to mobilize parliament and Zaibatsu-shackled Japan better and earlier, while exchanging bland imperialism for sincere expression of Nichirenist ideology and inter-Asian cooperation.

Realpolitik must die in favor of uncompromising idealism, even if some of the actions taken such as Mussolini's Ethiopian adventurism are just the same as before; the blood and soil faction in Germany must largely fail in favor of the Federists, Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter in particular must not be shot dead to ensure this, and the Aufbau Vereinigung must retain substantial influence and ensure that the policy in the East is one of liberating a cooperative new Russian dictatorship and exploiting the Aryan clades there to their maximum, in which a soft colonization policy taking after Catherine the Great's invitation of the Volga Germans may be embarked on to relieve Russia's post-communist anguish and provide a release valve for overpopulated Germany. Having a good candidate for a Russian Fuhrer, a Vozd- someone better than Vlasov- will help immensely also.

>>651928

To the irritation of some particularist and aristocratic ideologues, say, Evola and Himmler, the fascist movements must become a bit more alike to one another from orient to occident, though certainly not exactly the same, and must become more outwardly proletarian and state-totalitarian while still managing to rout out legitimate communist plants who camouflage themselves among the socialist wings. A black internationale must form, or a brown one, depending on quibbling between Hitler and Mussolini as to which shirt color is more representative. To the irritation of those such as Hitler, Goebbels and Rohm and the ambivalence of Mussolini, a captive monarchy and Fascitized or Nazified princely society must be erected in some honeypot with this proletarian streak, to preserve the best aspects and appearance of the old order and to better be able to cannibalize and digest them; Braunhemdchen Auwi, the brownshirt Fourth Prince August Wilhelm, is perfect for this purpose in Germany, while Italy and Japan's OTL monarchs will do just fine for old-order semi figureheads. The repudiation of universally expropriating estates as a Bolshevization at the Bamberg conference provides the nationalist justification to keep some of the aristocrats on unmolested, while the duplicity and fairweather attitude of some of the Junkers provides the socialist justification to rout others out. Apply as necessary.

In Asia, the change effected by this broad-stroke ideological rationalization and reactionary routing is that Japan doggedly pursues an accord with China- having taken the long perspective that war with the Jewish-Financial-Democratic blocks and the Soviet state as one front is inevitable, meaning any conquering venture into China's frontiers for her resources would slow the inevitable at best or be suicide at worst, and that a long total war plan against the Anglo-Americans was both necessary and necessary to plan & wargame in extreme detail to determine their policy, with the Pearl Harbor gambit conceived and refined far in advance- to the irritation of Chiang and the interest of Wang Jingwei, who will go pro-Axis earlier. Rather than seeking her subordination through the Anti-Comintern Pact, Japan's interest will be to form a genuine front with China against the Soviet Union; when this shaky accord is met, the original Second Sino-Japanese War is averted entirely.

German military aid to China is thus never interrupted, and is able to fork into Japan to the great satisfaction of Hitler who wanted to have his cake and eat it too in keeping the old and new alliances respectively; exchange of useful ideas and materiel can commence with haste. Lots of potential there. When the war commences in China, and I think it will inevitably commence, it will be between Mao, a kidnapped Chiang, and a smattering of western warlords against Japan and the legitimate Chi-Nat fascist government under Wang Jingwei; after the initial front settles down, it will quite resemble Japan's OTL maximum gains, except now with a better and earlier modernized army, a truly compliant collaborationist population under an independent but allied government, and expanded industry in both the now mid-30s Axis lend leased Japan and in the uninterruptedly industrializing Chinese arsenals.

>>651929

It'll be long and miserable going fighting West through mountain and wasteland even with this headstart on territory & assets. Both nations will still have to simultaneously strike South and North when the time comes. But the tone of the entire war will have been changed, clarified, idealized, each of the great personalities brought to their core best and their sins and missteps in this timeline averted, with barely a scrap of black propaganda worthy materiel for the Allies to try to extrapolate far into bald-faced lies and nary a casus belli to keep the public willingly in the war. The Anglo-Americans will have to deploy the same kind of heavy handed martial law as, say, was used to desegregate the schools at bayonet point in America. The mass anti-war movements of Vietnam will come decades earlier and be staunchly right-wing, dually libertarian and nationalist-revolutionary in character; America First, the Silver Legion, and the German-American Bund will be united in spite of any differences in resisting Roosevelt and his cronies. The Soviets will face stiffer resistance at Khalkin Ghol and react accordingly in militarily positive and negative fashions both, lose Vladivostok as a viable lend-lease port and be trapped with a long southeastern front and a far more emboldened national revolutionary movement, funded and sited in both East and West. Britain, more likely than facing invasion, will be eaten from the inside out by mutiny as the European and Asian Axis meet as a pincer in Indo-Asia, with Mosley and the other fascists & wartime arrestees freed in a jailbreak then scrambling to clean out the war partiers & any of their loyalists and achieve a favorable peace & armistice for the Empire. With Hitler's anglophile tendencies and the history of the old British-Japanese alliance, he'll probably get it. As consolation to Mussolini, the gates of the Mediterranean in Gibraltar and the Sinai will become jointly Axis-governed with substantial, even controlling pull in their opening or closing granted to Italy in respect to her empire's needs.

In the West, Mussolini never pigeonholes himself into supporting the Catholic-Corporatist Austrofascists, being free after an actual guns-hot revolution during political crisis in Italy- the March on Rome fails, the communists and left-syndicalists get bolder and bolder, resulting in a possibly three way war between fascists, Marxian socialists, and parliamentary reactionaries- to pursue his anticlerical policies as far as Italian piety will allow him. His and Hitler's relationship is therefore never soured on its starting note over conflict on the Anschluss and Dolfuss; for his part, Dolfuss might escape with his neck intact if the Austrian Nazis get their way earlier and with less fuss. A more coherent policy regarding the Mediterranean and how and where the British Empire needs to be cut back militarily and forced to negotiate postwar can emerge. The Greek debacle and Mussolini's preceding propaganda torrent can be avoided in favor of continued attempted rapport, and then exploiting a civil war between pro-Axis and Anglophile elements, made more fractious by this timelines' changes, in which the Axis plays its hand and wins. The Hellenic State neither rules over rubble nor starves. Poland, rather than becoming a General Government under effective colonization, is erected as a puppet retaining majority Polish territories and any disputed territories delivered by honest plebiscite. Rump Czechoslovakia becomes an Axis sphereling and if still dismantled outright is dismantled later, providing less fuel for British kvetching at Hitler going back on his word with Bohemia-Moravia; Skoda Works, being in a state set adrift and encircled, is still made a German military interest through capitalist means, still being bought up by Goering's Reichswerke.

Potential changes abound as a result of this broad stroke 'the Axis and its ideologues act in a purer and more uncompromised fashion,' political, military, direct, indirect. More than I think I could ever ferret out with my mild intellect. I could go on a little longer, but I've gone on quite a bit already, so I ought not to without interest.

>>651771

>more lolberg impotent LARP

Still waiting on my death threat, you shitskinned vodka mutt.

>>651928

>>651929

>>651930

>tfw real /pol/ has left chodemonkey's shillfarm to be here and everywhere

Anyway, basically you summed up what was wrong with the Axis at the time. Great job.

>>651930

Please explain the objective of Japan going South then? Their objective at the time was mainly to get oils and resources, but if the same resource can be found in Manchuria/Siberia, I find it really hard to justify spreading the frontline to South East Asia.

So them focusing North and together with the germans, pincer HARD the ruskies and seize all of their resources, using the jap navy ship as mobile artillery pieces/off-shore bombardment while the german/japs subs convoy hunt.

Once the USSR surrenders, it's over for the Allies. America and Britain can wage a war for another 10 year and they wouldn't win, and their government would be toppled due to unpopularity and high casualties.

>>651929

Hold on a moment, now.

>some honeypot

Come on, now. I'm using the word d i s c o r d in its proper context, not referencing the dubious chat client. This is LearningKampffy tier.

>>651938

It's little different than the original movement. Scattered, reamalgamated, scattered again, so on, before beginning a meteoric and irrepressible ascent defying the expectations of those who thought they could control or snuff it.

>>651940

>Please explain the objective of Japan going South then?

Destroy capitalist-colonialist interests in Asia and create a belt of friendly/puppet states in accord with nationalist Nichiren and the Ten Crown Cords ideal, forming up the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. In other words, kick the Jews off yonder flips and gooks. And grab the juicy resources available.

>if the same resource can be found in Manchuria/Siberia, I find it really hard to justify spreading the frontline to South East Asia.

One; those resources are plausible to be found in Manchuria, but weren't, and will be unknown and difficult to prospect in Siberia and likely impossible during wartime, even assuming the Japanese could push beyond the coasts that are her duty to hold. And in the postwar that is, furthermore, assuming that a more or less intact Russia will not emerge from these timeline modifications, with port leasing and economic concessions granted to Japan, but nothing as drastic as the 70/70 line or similar theoretic divisions of Eurasia.

Two; those resources are in the hands of the inevitable enemy, who will open that frontline on their own terms if the Sino-Japs don't. They will be inevitably levied against the Axis, and against Japan and the Axis Chinese in particular. There is no choice but to go south to deny the enemy and ensure pressure is taken off of the Europeans, in accord with the long war and its needs.

>So them focusing North and together with the germans, pincer HARD the ruskies

Japan, even with China providing manpower and materiel, simply can't 'pincer hard' in the sense of pushing far west. What she can do, will do, is seize Vladivostok and other useful coastline areas, push up onto the Trans-Siberian Railway where possible, and tie down large numbers of troops in Siberia and more importantly fight & kill them, so that not only do no slightly more than token Sib troops head West as in OTL, but troops may have to come out of the European reserve to prevent a collapse in the East.

>seize all of their resources

Again, assuming they can be prospected. Though, there will be not insubstantial Soviet materiel reserves to seize and exploit, so it isn't a loss or a wash. But you get those as soon as you carve up the limited developed areas. Trying to press a general advance North/West is a poor idea; better to engage in limited maneuver warfare and catch some Ruskie & northeast Asian pockets to imprison and integrate.

>using the jap navy ship as mobile artillery pieces/off-shore bombardment while the german/japs subs convoy hunt

Insofar as the surface vessels are not needed to confront and whittle down the tremendous US navy, yes.

>Once the USSR surrenders, it's over for the Allies. America and Britain can wage a war for another 10 year and they wouldn't win, and their government would be toppled due to unpopularity and high casualties.

Britain's parliamentary stooges won't wage anything; they're tidily out and in exile to Canada by '47 or so, if they even last that long. America, on the other hand, will try to hunker down, fortress up, and justify continued hostilities with the (not insubstantial) degree of fighting capability available to her. Western and southern Africa will probably become the primary (only?) site of her incessant, subversive Pyrrhically destructive warfare.

Full Vietnam mode, but with even less enthused Americans (under an even more openly Sovietized 'social democratic' government, with the dirty Trotskyists that would go on to become Neoconservatives never bothering with that be-our-own-opposition ruse and being joined by Stalinist expats) and horrific, savage General Buttnaked tier Bantu & mulatto revolutionary troops versus Europeans, some token Asian forces, and maybe some reasonably disciplined neo-Askari type formations not unlike the colored Rhodesian troops.

>>651944

I think our idea is very similar tbh, I stick to my guns in this case, as long as the japs can tie up Zhukov in the east (he was stationed in the East), the germans had more chance to win, if they have captured Moscow and be able to use the railroads to transport munition and supplies, it's over for the SU.

Meanwhile the prospect of maintaining the occupation in China, in South East Asia while waging a war in SU seems too much for Japan.

Even if the Brits and americans seize the southern resources, they still can't get that resources to SU anyway due to the new blockade of the combined Jap + German fleet (yes, I'm saying a part of the Jap navy should totally cross the Pacific to the Atlantic and supporting the germans).

>>651947

Ah yes, let's play some philosophical books and play a fucking jap vidya to understand history and battles that happen.

Yes, goyim, you should totally do it.

>>651947

>READ OSWALD SPENGLER

ok

>Gookgear cucked strong wahmen sons of cucks

OK?

Be a retarded mongrel somewhere else

>Strong wahmen

>Ever

>>651946

Zhukov's possible placement is indeed interesting. I doubt he'll be outright purged or sacked if Khalkin Ghol goes awry, whether that's objectively or in the Soviet perspective. But will he be kept in the East as a result, or get brought into a European command anyways? What kind of butterflies will that have in Europe in the former case? Does deep battle get applied principally in the East rather than the West as a result, with predictably heavier losses in men and miles? Or will the Soviets get a kick in the pants and figure out better what they need to do doctrinally? Getting kicked around in the Winter War didn't do it. Getting kicked around in the Winter War after going in half-cocked in the explicit opinion of many commanders for that matter didn't do it. Maybe getting kicked around by Sino-Japs on the steppe, and then kicked around by the Finns will. I don't think it's a sure thing.

>Meanwhile the prospect of maintaining the occupation in China, in South East Asia while waging a war in SU seems too much for Japan.

Mind that per the scenario that's with earlier and thorougher Axis technological exchange and a good half of China as outright co-belligerents with prewar legitimacy and a lighter occupational policy than historical, and far more than kosher historical. The possibility of rolling up substantial manpower with each new colony swept clean is not insubstantial, and once you hit India, if the core Azad Hind actually reaches India to act as commando agents and insurgent trainers instead of puttering around Europe and more is done to incite a general Indian revolt, then real bad shit ensues for the Allies in the southern Indian front. German-Italians potentially meeting up with Sino-Japs in the Khyber Pass levels of bad. The food that was coming from the subcontinent to fuel England's war effort won't be anymore; not through the Med, and then not at all. Considering those exports were large enough to cause mass famine over the whole of India, that's got to have some knock-on effects, don't it?

>>651944

>>652398

Would Nippon have had a less shitty early airborne warning infrastructure in your timeline and would the Luftwaffe have kept throwing cash at meme projects with a great deal of scientific but little practical military value?

Would the Italian military still have required some degree of Tard wrangling on an operational level?

The image of the Akagi, Graf Zeppelin and Aquila launching D4Ys and Ju-87Ts to attack enemy rear line infrastructure+convoys in the opening act of Unternehmen Seelöwe seems oddly appealing.

>>651893

"Dead dinosaurs" didn't make fuel you massive retard, Google what the carboniferous period is

>>652419

>Would Nippon have had a less shitty early airborne warning infrastructure in your timeline

Well, they have the German air defense system to model themselves on. In spite of having bad klystron-based radar, bad in terms of raw power at least, the German defense system was about as good as it could get under technical limitations and pretty stellar regardless. Wasn't perfect and ultimately couldn't do what it needed to with the equipment it had, nor did it have the pilots to go around, but it was what it was. Japan on the other hand has cavity magnetron based centimetric radar. Centimetric radar means each radar system, being more powerful, can pull more weight in a defense network at little or no real additional cost per unit, meaning they can be spread further around, overlap and provide redundancy, and are substantially more resistant to jamming. The Brits won't be able to fill the air with tinfoil confetti bombs and scramble the system. One Commander Yoji Ito had the magnetron running proper by '39 OTL, and ran a technical exchange mission in late 1940 in which he gleaned useful bits from the Germans' efforts for low-frequency radar, but didn't share all he knew in turn about the magnetron and high-frequency.

Furthermore, Germany had possibly exploitable magnetron developments in the mid-'30s that were passed up because the cavity magnetron jumps around too much in frequency, meaning the signals aren't autistically clean and easy to work with. The Germans were reasonably capable of having domestic centimetric radar before the British, with the technical exchange allowing each side to clarify their own reasonably mature designs. With the basic timeline caveat of 'no half-measures' applied in this context, thus earlier domestic development and earlier technical cooperation, this translates to likely prewar or very early war centimetric radar for at least the biggest two Axis majors and subsequently cross-pollinating to the secondary majors. Designs clarified by multiple participating powers running parallel but collaborative development lines. You can guess at the profits reaped here; more than just killing Bomber Command in the crib, which won't stop Harris from trying even if he knew, if you get it early enough, you can fit good radar gunlaying and air defense equipment onto the Kriesgmarine, saving the Panzerschiffe some sinking at the wars' start and ensuring the Bismarck never gets fucked on by a freak rudder torpedo hit from a goddamn stringbag Swordfish biplane. At worst, the Axis has radar parity with the Allies if the Bongs somehow ape them right out and get an early Tizard; at best, they get a serious head start in air defense and early electronic warfare and either way the Germans don't lose their surface navy.

>would the Luftwaffe have kept throwing cash at meme projects with a great deal of scientific but little practical military value?

This is easily preempted. Make sure Walther Wever, the long-ranger fighter and heavy bomber man, doesn't die in a plane crash from his shit tier pilot failing to check the gust locks on the passenger plane. Get Goering off morphine & booze cold turkey some time before the mid or late '30s after a tragic auto accident nearly kills him, the result of a drunken bender with SA man Oskar Dirlewanger at the wheel, tragically lost before his time; as a result, he's a smarter, more measured, more dangerous man who runs his spheres of influence with greater attention, competence and patience for technical staff that he considered tedious or pedantic OTL. With Wever never dying, Erhard Milch, the iron-fisted mischling, never loses control of industrial direction and Ernst Udet never gets into the deeply unsuiting leadership of R&D, and thus never makes every bomber have obligatory dive capacity on the standard model. And, you know, doesn't become a suicidal alcoholic from the stress.

Among many other things, the Fw-187 can supplant the Me-110 outside of multirole ground support, and really come into its own as a twin-engined fighter with single-engine maneuverability; the He-100 with a conventional cooling system can be pursued with at least a little enthusiasm as a next-generation Me-109alike that goes sanic speed and more or less has 109 drop tank range without the drop tanks. Those sort the Battle of Britain handily in German favor. With Wever, you get proper four-engine bombers like the He-177B, and the possibility to properly develop the coupled engine 'dive' variants anyways for special missions like Eisenhammer. You still won't have a lot of big German bombers, but the ones you get will be far more functional, and the twin-engines from OTL or newly injected will be better off in every way.

>>652442

Plus, on the flak end, you'll see direct fire with contact fuses earlier (as an at least nominally more subdued and Wormtongue Mason-commie-fag free Defense Minister Rohm screams about how daft the box barrage is 'instead of just shooting the fucking things straight out of the sky') and the Flak 41-88 project properly delivering- fix the new low turntable mount and/or put the 41 tube on the proven Flak 18 turntable if you can't, and put it into series production instead of making only dozens- while some kind of 5cm Flak can be properly delivered on and swat mosquitoes. I don't know what the hell was wrong with the '41-5cm or its shell, but the postwar Bofors 57 uses 57×438 while the later Gerat 58 uses 55x450B and the Gerat 241 presumably uses the PaK 38's 50×419 mm, as it derives from that gun. There is nothing preventing the Germans from sticking an electric traverse on a working 5-6cm gun to solve the laying speed problem, and how they failed to figure out how to deal with too much unburnt powder getting out by simply lengthening the gun caliber is beyond me. Sheer Waffenamt faggotry and laurel resting, I suppose. The thing starts development in '36, goes snail slow, only gets a contract in 1940. And since we're going for direct bomber hits, get those arrow-shot saboted APHE shells going early, and possibly get some kind of minimalist build long 75 triple-purpose field gun-flak-pak derivation of the KwK42, using a triple trail turntable design like the '60s Soviet D-30 122mm howitzer. Set it higher so you don't have the restricted elevation over trail legs problem.

t. habitual Wiking reader

>Would the Italian military still have required some degree of Tard wrangling on an operational level?

If Mussolini gets a proper revolution and a Social Republic in the '20s, you're looking at radical restructuring possibilities and Soviet-like meteoric development, sans most of the bloodshed and having to piggyback the beginnings of late Tsarist industrialization & claim it was all gommunism. Possibilities like, 'sacking the old officer corps of fuddy duddy aristocrat washouts for professional new blood and fascists,' 'keeping the mechanized Spanish expeditionary forces together to use as an instruction school/model for the future,' and 'not converting to binary divisions for on-paper power.' Additionally, better relations between the strongmen and the powers means less fractiousness and ill-coordination. Better position for Italy means less inclination for Mussolini to take big dick risks to assuage his tremendous ego. No, the Italians probably won't need tard wrangling or external leadership, although even at their idealized best they won't be Germoney 'I am the biggest densest overdeveloped military-industrial dong in all of Central Europe, watch me sucker punch half the world' tier. And they don't have to be that good to thrash the British across the Med, Africa and the Middle East with some German help.

>The image of the Akagi, Graf Zeppelin and Aquila launching D4Ys and Ju-87Ts to attack enemy rear line infrastructure+convoys in the opening act of Unternehmen Seelöwe seems oddly appealing.

I find more appeal in the fact that it will be happening during and enabled by an even greater than Battle of Berlin-tier state of anarchy in which a Mosleyan putsch is taking the Isle by storm and the guns of the Royal Navy have fallen silent as the stiff upper lip finally droops. Like a reverse Valkyrie operation, a full heroic rebirth of Britain decently ahead of the cavalries' arrival. Let's say Skorzeny stages the initial breakout of the BUF and all the other bad goy arrested under the wartime acts, dropping in with a dual Luftwaffe-SS paratroop commando unit, who pull off some Belgrade-tier bluffing along the way as to how many men and how much support they really have in fighting their way in and announcing the revolution. Gran Sasso raid on steroids.

>>652427

If we're talking exclusively about oil, then the majority of it was plant remains still

>>652479

>and finally bullied Nips into a first strike on Pearl Harbor by cutting off US oil exports.

The Americlaps literally sent a proposal to Japan which would guarantee endless oil supplies to Japan, the nips were just still full of the hapa rage after getting stomped by the ruskies and needed to let out their anger.

>>652479

>IOTL they false flagged themselves into war with Spain in 1898, baited germans into sinking the peaceful unarmed civilian passenger liner Lusitania in 1917 and finally bullied Nips into a first strike on Pearl Harbor by cutting off US oil exports.

I wonder why didn't they just bully hitler into an immediate suicide when the war started. I mean, with such tactical genius abilities it should be a piece of cake.

>>652445

More specifically phytoplankton.

>>652574

If Judenpedia is to be believed the US offered to gib oil in exchange for the Nips leaving China with the exception of Manchukuo.

Nips did not like this and attacked Pearl Harbor instead.

>>652538

Well they could've suicided Roosevelt six times in the back of the head either during or following the 1940 election, switch puppets and have those blasted germans take all the blame.

>>652577

>Nips leaving China

And Korea.

Which would mean Soviets or literally anyone who is in the mood for taking over a yellow-nigger filled shithole would take over it immediately and have easy access to Japan.

So basically they offer you to hang yourself or they'll shoot you instead.

>>652479

You're assuming Spain will be neutral. 'No half measures' means 'no half measures.' Francisco Franco never takes power as regent for monarchs he never intends to instate. Either Jose Sanjurjo doesn't get Bane'd for refusing to leave his luggage behind if he wanted to ride by biplane with Juan Ansaldo (or because Franco allegedly sabotaged the plane, because the other rival for Caudillo among the generals mysteriously died in another plane crash) or Franco himself gets the Bane treatment; from there, Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera manages to survive, either avoiding capture or being rescued by elements of the Condor Legion and the Corpo Truppe Volontarie, leading the Falange to primacy over the reactionary-monarchists. Spain recovers better than OTL from the followon policies and increased Axis aid, and opens the gates to an attack on Gibraltar from behind. The soft underbelly of Europe gains a beer gut, and the western gates of the Mediterranean are shut tight.

This is a lot of additional coast to defend, but then, it's a lot less wasteland country to fight over than North Africa. Spain could be thought of as a beartrap for the Allies to plant their foot in; deceptively weak in hard defense, with easy land links for Axis reinforcements to flow in from, easier air cover, and a well-armed hostile native population with Soviet tier partisan potential or better. Hitler once considered using the leader of the Blue Division to stage a mutiny against Franco, and another time of making beefsteak Falangists out of the ex-communists/syndicalists, considering them to be sincerer in spirit than the Carlist gaggle; the reason he didn't was because in our timeline he thought of the Spanish as 'the only really tough Latins' and thought they'd be too tough a nut to crack.

In similar vein, Corneliu Codreanu escapes execution in prison and the Iron Legion stages a revolution against the hated playboy king on the tense eve of war, with a half-decapitated Legion never accepting a compromise government with Antonescu's militarists who would later kill them for thinking 'they could get rid of all the yids at once.' Instead, the compromise government is in Hungary, where the increased spread of fascism leads Miklos Horthy to let the Arrow Cross into government as an appeasement measure. He'll stick around for a while, but will eventually have to step aside in favor of a Magyar Hitler or Mussolini equivalent. Not unlike how the federalist Konrad Adenauer, though respected by Hitler for his works, was pushed into obscurity and considered indigestible to the new order.

This means parties who can ultimately set their differences aside in favor of coherent anticommunist and anti-Jewish action, coming to a reasonable compromise on the Transylvanian issue through long-term population exchanges. The eventual transfer of northern Transylvania to Hungary follows once this is complete, and the transfer of Romanian & Hungarian border military assets to Besserabia forms a solid front against any Winter War style excursion. Seems odd that one'd think of fascists as being better able to compromise; but Hitler laid out in the Zweites Buch quite plainly his contempt for the kind of 'hurrah patriots' who wanted to impotently thump their chests and get into a catastrophically unstrategic war with Italy over the Trient Germans, instead of seeking out an alliance with them on their mutual interests. The Magyar-Dacian accord, with German and Italian supervision, can proceed with precisely this mindset.

>>652634

>this is of course assuming the Axis won't indulge in any Subsaharan Adventures.

As stated earlier, the horn of Africa down through the Congo and maybe even South Africa will be a hotbed of war between tinpot Afronational-Communists and the more sanely minded blacks & their white co-belligerents. Liberia will probably become one giant North American Federation military outpost. South America, meanwhile, will become subject to some good ol' Monroe Doctrine jingoism, with Axis support for friendly governments there turning it into a black hole for US interventionism and guerilla support the same way Africa is for the Axis.

>Even with the Germany&friends getting their collective shit together the sheer Industrial capacity of America would still be a tough pill to swallow in any capacity

Absolutely. America's federal state and military apparatus won't be undone from without, not without a continuation war a decade or two later after the main war grinds down a bit before the '40s are over. But they can be beaten off and isolated to the continent, giving breathing time for the New Order states to rebuild and develop inwardly. The war will never go cold, only lukewarm, even if there is an armistice against general warfare. The south Atlantic and the Ring of Fire will become the new playground.

>>652479

>>652574

>>652577

>>652579

The US ultimatum 'proposal' of 'abandon your empire, let the Maoists eat the chinats, and submit to our oversight & we'll totally resume normalized trade :^)' furthermore, was intended to be completely unacceptable. Roosevelt & co actively desired for war with the Axis and agitated for it in every way possible. See the undeclared destroyer war in the Atlantic, where explicit US flagged ships- not British ones from the Destroyers For Bases agreement- engaged with German submarines under the veneer of so-called 'neutrality patrols' from almost the start of the war. Whether they had explicit foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor or not, baiting out such a move was their explicit intent. And Hitler's declaration of war in solidarity with Japan, in which he railed explicitly against Roosevelt's undeclared war, had the chainsmoking cripple just giddy.

The infamous 1976 'revisionist' issue of Reason, an age old libertarian magazine- I would upload it directly if the file wasn't 20 megs, go make a disposable email throwaway on Scribd, upload a near empty private Notepad file to get download access, and get it right now http://archive.is/rqpVm - lays out the perfidy of Roosevelt & co on the Japan issue quite nicely among many other things. There's simply no avoiding war with the Anglo-Americans without huge, presciently aware mutinies in Britian and America to oust the open jingos and dishonest faux-peacenik 'neutrality' hawks, and no way to tear them out by the roots except open revolution, and so I find myself very frustrated when people say the Germans or Japanese should've been conservative and tenderfooted in their courses of action. They needed to be more radical, not less. More aggressive, more unified, and more totalitarian in their efforts.

Then and only then can the cancer of the rapacious devourers and destroyers of civilization be excised, and most ironically for the world government fetishizing kikes, a true brotherhood of independently cooperative and competitive peoples from orient to occident erected as the reality of MAD sets in to slay the notion of a Euro-Asiatic war as Himmler feared to be necessary and as some of the Eight Crown Cordists would've likewise believed necessary to establish the Emperors' abode literally 'in all eight directions,' and the gateways to the stars are opened by von Braun and his international contemporaries.

>>652637

>Roosevelt & co actively desired for war with the Axis

Wouldn't it be easier to start the war over Poland and Silesian Autonomy in particular over "oy vey muh US loans to Silesia", or was allowing soviets to take as much of Europe as possible the bigger goal?

>>652637

Thread saved.

>>652642

>Wouldn't it be easier to start the war over Poland and Silesian Autonomy in particular over "oy vey muh US loans to Silesia"

Do you think the United States public or the then not (totally) compromised Congress & Senatorial systems would allow the start of a world war over a paradoxically humanitarian military mission against Germany & co? Over Woodrow Wilsonian borders that were already known to have been farcically drawn? No. It took incessant propaganda buildup, on-the-sly entanglement abroad at the same time as Roosevelt declared he didn't wish for intervention, the too slow translation of the Japanese declaration of war making Pearl Harbor a true surprise attack instead of just an effective one, and the following furor of black propaganda and rampant dehumanization of the enemy to make the war even halfway palatable to the public and the poor, dumb farmboys getting sent into the meatgrinder.

>was allowing soviets to take as much of Europe as possible the bigger goal?

Look at how much support was ultimately given to Poland with the poisoned guarantee, and with her surrender to Bolshevist domination postwar. Look at Stalin's drinking himself half to death and cancelling the Tower of the Soviets outright when he didn't get to push straight to the Atlantic, relegating its pitted foundation to rust as an open air swimming pool. Look at the cluster of postwar map projections and plans in which Amalek-Germany is totally dismantled, the Soviets are legitimized in pressing deeply West as the leftover scraps of Europe are made into a Eunited States, and the world is unwillingly federated under the leadership of the usual company of Jewish and Judaizer ideologue-financier democracy makers. That should give you all the answer you need for the Allies' unfulfilled intentions, in spite of mischling war hound Churchill's anticommunist streak. And Patton was murdered by a Lebanese Jew for wanting to roll the reds back and wanting to go home and clean Washington's clock with a Presidential candidacy over the sins of the Eisenhauer-Morgenthau bloc, as his diary shows.

>>652646

If you can call my rambling monopolization of discussion saving it, I suppose I'm flattered.

All I can say is that if the jews start shit back in the 30-40s to FORCE (as in literally with no casus belli) for America to attack a fortified Germany and Japan, they are doomed.

There is no possible way for americans to make headway into Europe or Asia without British support.

Maybe some days in the future we can go back to the past and fix things. The thought of a combined Germany + Japan navy is just too much awesomeness.

Could the Republic of Ireland take Northern Ireland at any point in the war with the Brits all distracted?

>>652740

In the event that the Axis launched a largely successful invasion of Britain bu failed to get a hold in the North I could see the Irish army marching in and occupying it on the grounds of protecting the Irish/Catholic Irish population

>>652649

It won't be with no casus belli. It'll just be with the usual faulty ones.

>There is no possible way for americans to make headway into Europe or Asia without British support.

More or less, but they'll get it up until Britain is knocked out.

>a combined Germany + Japan navy

'Combined' is a very strong word. What will be seen, beside that all-Axis expeditionary force against a finally isolated Britain as the major powers all strive to have a foot in the door of the final victory, is some cooperation in the Indian Ocean, with the Germans at most sending subs and maybe a spare cruiser of some kind for propaganda solidarity and to do some good-old fashioned surface commerce raiding. Otherwise, Japan has to largely mind the pacific, Germany the Atlantic, and Italy the Med before being able to branch off to either ocean.

>too much awesomeness

Don't do that.

>>652739

>That'd take a herculean propaganda effort to sell

For the North Americans, certainly, though they'll likely maintain at length that the war 'never really ended.' And it didn't. But it'll be the Axis that has the will and initiative to start it up again, and will do so as soon as it's militarily and politically viable liberate the Americas through violent force and bottom-up civilian insurrection eliminating the rifle-behind-every-blade-of-grass issue.

>a US proxy defeat in some South American gorilla country would lead to said country experiencing a rather fast upswing that'd be hard to counter for nearby Democratic Socialist revolutionaries

Yes, but did that ever stop the Soviets in Rhodesia or anywhere else? There's always more unfortunate, gullible darkie aboriginals to be duped into doing the Jews' work in trying to seek the betterment of their own lives by ignorant means.

>especially if victorious Axis-aligned strongman leaders hand out 50 year military port leases to European Axis members or Japan as aid compensation.

Indeed. Lots of near-fascists like the Integralists kicking around, waiting to join with the strong horse in the race.

>Being at "peace" with the Axis Empire would at least make the US' postwar humanitarian interventions in Africa and South America look sort of reasonable to the public while allowing for peacetime propaganda indoctrination+glownigging

At least until the amateur reels of the native troops and the necklacing-tier atrocities start rolling in. That'll make things interesting.

>first deployment of Axis ICBMs would put a stop to that.

Samson Option psychology, anon. The threat of nuclear annihilation won't stop the illuminist Jews. Beside that, Reagan-style Star Wars orbital defense technology will probably be pursued with gusto by the major powers as a way to break MAD and enable the resumption of more aggressive subversion and open warfare by both parties.

>>652861

>On another note do Eurasia and the Americas develop their own rivaling Leagues of Nations in your timeline?

Multiples, most likely. North America's rump League of Nations will likely develop into the United Nations, with a severely smaller membership and more ardent attempts to federalize, plus lots of Monroe Doctrine jingoism. Nothing to see here. Eurasia will on the other hand have a double whammy of two primary international organizations.

First, the Axis Powers Security Council, essentially a streamlined, formalized NATO analogue developed out of the wartime military alliances where your heads of state & government, high general staff, and anyone with high level secrecy clearance and a red phone line gets to sit at the round table and decide on operational and world political measures. Second, the Black Internationale, a round table of fascist ideologues and paramilitarists organized to informally rule on ideological matters pre-judicially, to raise international solidarity, and wank off about how sick being palingenetic ultranationalists is. You know, like the Trots & company liked to do, except with less gommunism, more fasces and serious paramilitary & state backing.

Beside that, you'll have local ethno-economic conglomerates of states. The European Union, much maligned by Hitler in concept back when it was a Coudenhove-Kalergist ruse, manages to squeak into existence on the convincing passion of Mosley and the need to set up a coherent international framework for the future economy, in spite of universal efforts towards autarky. It'll probably be less influential and federalized than its OTL counterpart, being more an expansion of the European Coal and Steel Community, though designed to organize competition rather than eliminate it entirely. The East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere follows a similar framework in pacific Asia through to India.

Russia, being the great northern buffer and being open to play the Great Game in middle Asia once more, will have a membership foot planted in both economic blocs as well as being the center of a CIS analogue- perhaps the CES, Commonwealth of Eastern/Eurasian States- loosely bonding those post-Soviet/Tsarist states and other Slavs or central Asians who wish to avoid becoming too much German-Italian or Sino-Japanese spherelings, but are not explicit members of the new Russian federation, likely consisting of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus principally.

Finally, there might be a New League of Nations erected by the victorious powers to replace the now wannabe world government UN on the global scale, which essentially exists to do what the old one did; offer a forum for anyone and everyone to discuss grievances and try to get some dubiously useful resolutions and rubber stamping. In the end, this is effectively a diplomatic participation trophy and a waiting room for majority black African and South American states who either haven't picked an explicit side or haven't become full members of other Axis organizations, because the APSC and the Black Internationale make it heavily redundant.

>>652740

If the British and the Allies are really getting licked and the Irish nationalist right gets bold enough, I can see them occupying the north. Where that goes after, I can't say. Maybe it ends in negotiation towards the probative reunification of the North with the South on the conditional basis of Ireland entering into the new Great Britain on a likewise probative basis.

>>653006

>Wouldn't the Axis have massive advantage on that front?

They'd have a pretty good head start on rockets to get up there. The mania to figure out ultrafast missiles or self-destructing atom bomb pumped xasers is all there, considering the Sun Gun was concepted. Not 'considered,' merely the fact someone thought of it at all. Technically, the American rocketmen were ahead of the game prewar, but were indeed considered a meme while the Germans who learned a thing or two from their counterparts were well-funded government darlings with legitimately more cash pumped into the V2s than the Manhattan Project overall.

>US arms procurement was also fraught with corruption and political bribery during the war

And postwar. Muh .30-06 autism continued through the postwar all the way from the '20s, killing the indigenous American .270 caliber range semi-intermediate cartridges then and the British .270-280 projects later. The cliquey shits railing against any use of the 90mm anti-air cannon in any adapted ground anti-tank role, with various excuses. Those are the big ones I can never forget.

>assuming the Axis picks up on nuclear weaponry fairly late in the game

I don't know what to decide here, personally. The conventional history is that the Germans botched the bomb, Heisenberg's project was the only real one, and it floundered hard while Manhattan did everything real good. Less conventional is the idea the Germans had something going after all and at a better pace than admitted. Most unconventional is the crankery in Reich of the Black Sun, which has the German post office acting as a front for a serious Manhattan-tier SS effort parallel to Heisenburg's dabbling, using a chemical slurry purification process on Sudetenland ore to gets its high grade fissile material as fuel for an implosion bomb. The usual story is dubbed 'the Allied legend.'

Beside kvetching about 'muh sekrit mil-ind nazis, (((Eisenhauer))) warned us!' and arguing for the legitimacy of foo-fighters and disc craft, which might be a bit offputting for most, it was convincing enough that I considered its narrative possible, since Manhattan got dicked pretty hard by the Thin Man fiasco, was seriously considered for cancellation due to a lack of results, and the capture of a U-boat bound for Japan containing fissile material, infrared fuses and an expert in their use for the implosion bomb immediately precedes the US unfucking their shit with the appearance of an entirely unrelated and ill attested IR fuse expert. Also brought up are the allegations at Nuremberg and by one Luftwaffe pilot of atom bomb tests, allegedly used to vaporize ten thousand Jews in a miniature nuclear holocaust.

It proposed furthermore that, with the gap in understanding to actual mass production application, the twin bombs dropped on Japan were looted and German in origin. So it goes, the bomb was paperclipped, not just the rockets, and that was too much to allow the public to know of, though the book frames it as 'masking the ebil nazi infiltrators.' So maybe the States have squat diddly for a while and the Germans hold the cards; but Hitler, according to an anecdote of Skorzenys', really didn't want to use atomic weapons because he understood full well that the world could be burnt to ashes by atomic warfare. Just like the potentially war-winning and horrific nerve agents, they're likely going to be held in reserve for reprisal only. Maybe New York will get a 'demonstration' airburst, too high to do meaningful city flattening damage, but smashing every window in the city and leaving a visible eye of plasma & smoke, long enough to be undeniably documented.

>moon bases and O'Neill cylinders

That leads one to wonder, will there ever be a treaty against high atmospheric or outer space nuclear detonations? Orion drives might stay in the game. Space could be ultimately militarized to the hard sci fi tune of hide-and-go-bazooka on rocketskates.

>>653362

>What do when the Axis starts moving part of its administration to space while the American populace largely consists of mongrelized goblinos who can't even properly clean the chosen people's luxury mansions?

Administrations since it isn't a single federative government, and 'largely' is a strong word, but sweat more. Get angry at said goblinos who sneer and chafe under the yoke and start mutating the communism foisted onto them into what in this universe are relative bad goy thoughts like National Bolshevism, and even angrier at the underground white, black, and hispanic chauvinists & fascists who are increasingly well unified in hating the Jews far more than they could ever distrust each other Lincoln Rockwell & Elijah Muhammad style. More importantly than that, increasingly elusive and well-armed in spite of allegedly successful repressive measures and lack of support from the populace.

>What do when Neowakandan gorilla warriors start carrying standard issue caseless 6.5mm Tungsten ammunition for use with SG97 bullpup battle rifles dropped in from outer space while the US and its proxies are still relying on the outdated AR-18 platform chambered in 5.56mm UNATCO which can barely penetrate the cheap surplus graphene-silk police vests worn by Wakandan soldiers?

Scream that the Prague Golem of the darker peoples has completely turned on them and lose their last footholds in Africa with South America well on its way too. The game is up, there's no more time for Xth-generational glownig subversion and no hope for conventional military counter-conquest. Plan the Last War to try to kill as many people as you can and wreck the earth as hard as possible in a last ditch effort. Bizarro 60-70s tech like the 1959 Future GI suit, Starship style tanks, something ala a refined Winchester SPIW in terms of being an ultra cheap injection molded space M14 as a mass production reserve rifle, and maybe some ahead of their time '80s-'90s staples go to the fore. Things often designed with an expected lifetime of minutes or hours in a possibly nuclear war and dicked up the ass by Army Ordnance procurement shenanigans.

These in the hands of highly demoralized reservists and conscriptees, while military cliques that had been hoodwinked into supporting the American Union through the years (with not enough time to compromise or replace them through forced pedophile blackmail) are starting to wax Patton. Maneuvering core troops with Stoner rifles into position while American ethnic nationalists with arms from contacts ranging from Spain to Japan, Norway to South Africa, and routed through by a friendly Generalissimo in an allegedly NAU-alligned Central American state, are doing the same. Imagine the tanks-on-highways havoc of the 1991 Soviet coup, except instead of one group of hardline gommies screeching at Gorbachev, it's no less than a dozen major insurgent umbrella organizations and a substantial portion of fed up militarists stabbing the NAU-UN loyalists in the back at once as a hot global war and (attempted) nuclear exchange start up. Bang and a fizzle as Star Wars does its work to prevent mass global death while rods from God start uninterceptibly cratering elite hideyholes, then a whole lot of encirclement, rolling surrender and turncoating, mop-up work, and extreme gratefulness to (supra)modern NBC sealing suits & spray-on solutions as the Earth gets a few new tragic belts of brain melting Sarin, VX & Novichok contamination.

>>653446

It's nice to hear. Personally, I'm happy to have reason to sound out my amateur concepting and light research.

Anyone else want to pitch in on this or start another discussion line? Sitting quite consciously at 17 of 62 posts, which is a little much.

>>653148

> legitimately more cash pumped into the V2s than the Manhattan Project overall.

Except not?

>>651706

The main reason for Operation Barbarossa was intel that the Soviets intended to invade Europe. So unless they also decided that a European invasion wasn't worth it, Germany vs USSR would still happen, but not fighting on two fronts, the Germans would likely have taken Stalingrad and Moscow.

>>652479

>Eurasia Holocauster Tycoon

Fucking kek

>>654485

>If the US actually tried to stay isolationist apart from lend-lease shipments during WW2 and as such did not sanction Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, how could it have played out?

Japan would probably hold on just fine in China, relatively at least, sweep the Commonwealth if/when they go further south seeing how there were some pretty close calls in jungle warfare against the somewhat poorly armed Australians that won't be a sure thing this time around, and if the US policy seems doggedly uninvolved enough, they might try to go North after all, enough to get or contest Vladivostok and bite & hold. This will probably be bad for the Soviets for obvious reasons. If the US never gets into the war proper, and per your criteria of strict uninvolvement does not lease men with the materiel, then bomber command will be strictly British and take strictly British losses. I highly doubt this will be sustainable.

>On a similar note, when would've been the best time for Stalin to attack the Reich in a timeline where Hitler decided to focus on removing the British threat before going for the East?

Whenever everyone is totally entangled and exhausted in his view. According to Suvorov, he thought that time was ripe in 1941, in spite of the lack of completion of the army reforms and retooling which was to take until '42-'43. But you don't mass your troops in offensive positions with obstacles cleared to have a tea party, even if it's really fucking stupid to the point people doubt the veracity of Suvorov's circumstantial claims on that ground alone; they tidily ignore the Finnish debacle to do so. This is so broad and general a question which requires a lot more foundation to give serious thought to, so it's hard to say much, but probably around the time an expanded German-Italian army in Afro-Asia starts getting dick deep into Iraq, whenever that may be.

This could result in the successful Icebreaker rollover of the entirety of Europe, nothing much to say here, or it could result in a reverse Barbarossa, in which the Soviets reach the gates of Berlin after hard fighting and are then ground down under abysmal morale & training, ragged supply lines from not yet getting scads of Studebaker trucks and the general loss of lendlease due to popular protest after it becomes impossible to keep information about Soviet atrocities from the western democratic public in spite of blanket media control.

The lack of patriotic pseudofascist motivation & propaganda materiel offered by the defensive nature of the OTL war allowing for some real good mental gymnastics to justify Ruskies taking out their anger against their taskmasters against the men in front of them means they start shooting commissars and throwing in the towel instead of being good socialist fighters unto death. They suffer under incessant partisanal action by both Brandenburgers & other commando forces, earlier formed Volksturm and Werwolf irregulars, and Prometheanist leftovers in Russia's frontiers plus turncoat Poles who've found their liberators less than desirable. What follows is collapse, mass encirclements & destruction ala OTL Barbarossa or reverse Stalingrad, revolving door coups in the Kremlin, a fresh Russian civil war, and a tidy advance of bedraggled Axis forces cleaning up the remaining diehard communists in Russia.

>>654532

>How badly would Unternehmen Tannenbaum have crashed the Reich's international reception if it actually happened?

What international reception, outside co-belligerents and ideological comrades? You'll have some people talk on about Swiss neutrality, and others playing devils' advocate for the greater national aims of the partitioning powers while bemoaning the violence of the world. Some people will forget themselves and go further in denouncing the whingers for being naive. Otherwise, I'm not sure it'll do much to add to the black propaganda caricature of the Axis.

The wartime benefits of German-Swiss trade were apparently 0.5% of the total, so you lose that smidgen of funding. The Franc ceases to exist as a freely convertible currency. If the Swiss don't destroy their industry in self-imposed Morgenthau fashion to spite the victors, then their precision manufacturing can be directly folded over into the war economies of the partitioners and start benefiting from economies of scale and runaway investment. The partition itself could go relatively quickly, with a quick shock invasion followed by her acceding to terms. Or it could turn into a slog of a war in the style of Greece. However, like Greece, Switzerland's logistical rope may well run out very quickly in spite of a good early showing, since she imported 50% of her food and was encircled on all sides. And unlike Greece, Switzerland has no way to receive British military aid in any significant amount. The western front gets wider, and the potential Alpine Redoubt- if it becomes more than a propaganda misdirection- that much larger.

Aside from that, around 1944, you had some American airmen interned at length by the Swiss, resulting in an explicit threat by the American army attache in Bern that "the mistreatment inflicted on US aviators could lead to 'navigation errors' during bombing raids over Germany." In April 1941, Schaffhausen was actually bombed, allegedly as it was mistaken for the 284 kilometers distant Ludwigshafen am Rhein. The town had some workshops making shells, ball bearings and Bf-109 odds and ends, so this is rather dubious. Accidents or 'accidents' like this continued. Some of the air commanders insisted that Switzerland was a bunch of ebil closet Nadzis and so should be intentionally bombed.

Say that US-British bomber command ramps itself up earlier, somehow. Either in alt-Black Internationale timeline, or modified from OTL. They engage in anti-commercial bombing against occupied states and neutrals, in particular Switzerland and Sweden, and try to ramp up to latewar saturation levels before the Luftwaffe has been chewed to pieces. How much worthwhile materiel damage is dealt? How much of a mess will this be for the Allies' image? How many fencesitters get off it in a fashion that's not so great for the Allies? If the Swedes go into Finland, is that a scale tipper?

>>654533

>Allies engaging in bombing neutral states

Believable in the case of Sweden as it was supplying Iron to those evil Nahtzees and otherwise encompassed several strategic positions along the Baltic, but Switzerland at the time was already regarded as the World's treasury.

Considering how many men of dubious character had deposits in Swiss banks with security guaranteed by neutrality+Swiss banking secrecy then and now Operation Tannenbaum could very well have accelerated the US' entry into the war.

The Swiss people would not be kind to any foreign occupiers, so grueling partisan movements and terrorist attacks against Axis personnel would follow for years on end regardless of Allied supply (though the Allies would start stealth-paradropping supplies into occupied Switzerland right away anyhow).

Anti-partisan operations by the Waffen SS, Wehrmacht and others would also without certainty sow doubt among personnel, after all they are fighting what are for all intents and purposes fellow germans who weren't intending to fight the Reich, aren't communist and simply want their lands to be under the rule of their people no matter the cost.

The US going too far with "accidental" bombings of Swiss territory on the other hand could very well escalate the Situation in the other direction, especially if the Swiss threaten to uncover shady dealings regarding internal power struggles among the Rothschilds and such as a means to cause political unrest among the Allies.

>>652605

No oil has been found outside of earth

>>654792

Purportedly NASA figures the lakes on Titan are nothing but hydrocarbons.