/islam/ - 8kun Masjid

Should've posted this in the QTDDOT thread I guess, sorry

>>40861

I feel like any question should go to QTDDOT unless it's a discussion for the current state of affair

>>40860

>I was arguing with a christian

Found your problem …

>>40862

As slow as this board is, I think it's ok to make new threads for things like this.

>>40863

Why not?

Christians generally believe Jesus saws was begotton by Allah and is part of a coequal trinity with Him and the holy spirit. Literally how it's described in Quran.

There's next to no scriptural support in their own book for their blasphemous doctrine outside of Jesus' saws referring to Allah as The Father (not his own but humanities), manipulative translations, and flat out forgeries.

It's not surprising the Christian would wanton lie about his own doctrine when it's built on lies upon lies and even more lie about Quran.

>>40860

At that time in Arabia, the Christians considered the trinity to be God, Jesus, and Mary. Christians have always had a hard time describing the trinity. They are not able to explain how three can be one, because it doesn't make sense. Ask 3 different priests and you will get 4 different answers.

>>40860

It's good that you ask here but It's also good if you've tried Islamqa as well.

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/243142/what-is-the-concept-of-the-christian-trinity-that-the-quran-declares-to-be-false

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/12713/is-the-trinity-that-the-christians-believe-in-mentioned-in-islam

Salam alaykum brother and ramadan mubarak,

Firstly, christians never agreed on the trinity in the first place, they just massacred each other until the winner became majority.

There were christians who worshipped Maryam in the trinity.

But even in our time we can see the influence on catholicism, where they pray to Maryam and ask her for help, practically taking her as a godess.

They believe she is sinless like Jesus PBUH and that shes the queen of heaven and the literal mother of God (a'udhubillah).

The irony is that if God forgave of her imperfections and made her sinless, he could have done the same to all humans without the need to use a sacrifice. For protestants, Maryam is just a human.

But in our time, this verse still applies, as catholics are mushrikeen not just with Isa (AS) but also Mayram (AS).

I suggest you watch VID related and also search of the Johannine comma, a clear forgery made to insert the trinity in the bible.

Shirk in islam is not just bowing to statues, there is other types of shirk such as shirk in du'a (calling our or prayer) shirk in obedience (obeying something contradicting islamic law) shirk in hukm (creating man made laws)

The christians and jews have committed all types of shirk.

Not just shirk fil rububiya (which is taking another literal diety)

Take care wa salam

>>40884

Timestamp is 24:19 for Johannine comma

>>40884

O Mary! Verily Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds [3:42]

Mary's sins were cleansed. She was sinless when Jesus was born. This is in accordance with Qur'an.

>>40886

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ

<"And when the angels said: "O Mary! Behold, God has elected thee and made thee pure, and raised thee above all the women of the world."

Let's look at the tafasir :

Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

(And when the angels) i.e. Gabriel (said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee) with Islam and worship (and made thee pure) from disbelief, the association of partners with Allah and blemishes; it is also said this means: He has saved you from being killed, (and hath preferred you above (all) the women of creation) of your time by the birth of Jesus.

Jalal - Al-Jalalayn

And, mention, when the angels, namely, Gabriel, said, ‘O Mary, God has preferred you, He has elected you, and made you pure, of the touch of men; He has preferred you above all women of the worlds, that is, the inhabitants of your time.

The word you are confused in is "وَطَهَّرَكِ" = "and He purified you"

Which does not mean in any way infallibility or being sinless, since this same word is used for the wives of the prophet PBUH. It is an honorary quality of modesty and purity, but they are still fallible humans who seek Allah's (SWT) forgiveness at the end of the day.

>>40884

>>40860

Forgot to mention this verse OP, which explicitly mentions the trinity, unlike the verse your friend used for Maryam.

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." 4:171

>And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you.

Contrasting with what he used :

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (5.116)

Which only talks about the day of judgement, and not the trinity, explicitly at least.

>>40888 (checked)

Thanks brother. Not OP, but I welcome the knowledge

>>40884

part 2 is out

As a former Christian, I can say with certainty that the trinity is pretty THE biggest source of controversy within the religion. Like, some of the earliest "heresies" like Arianism were a result of misunderstandings about the nature of the trinity because it's such a complex and bizarre doctrine. Nobody really understands it. You could study Christian theology for decades and still be unable to explain it to an outsider in a way that doesn't fry their brain. There are entire sects within Christianity based around nontrinitarian and unitarian theology, including ones you've almost certainly heard of like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Anyone who says it's an easy doctrine is either lying or trolling, possibly both.

Also, if Jesus (saws) and Allah (swt) are one and the same person, then how do explain the scene at the Garden of Gethsemane (if you don't know, it's the scene in the New Testament where Jesus is about to get arrested by the Romans and he goes off by himself in the garden to pray; if Jesus literally is God, something he never once claimed to be, then he is literally praying to himself here; even serious, orthodox Christians struggle to explain this one).

>>40884

Only Catholics believe that Mary was sinless. That's actually listed as one of the reasons why the Eastern Orthodox church remains separate from Rome.

Just thought I'd point that out.

>>41320

Then if she isn't, how could a sinful corrupt womb bear the sinless deity christians believe in?

>>41318

Not interested in defending christianity to any real extent but the trinity as the baseline of genuine christianity is fairly well accepted even outside of christian groups, only a small subset of americans consider the non-trinitarian groups you mentioned as even remotely christian religions. The trinitarian view of three separate personas of one united substance is dealt with in their athanasian creed so the gethsemane bit isn't really out of line in their view a fully human, including even doubt, emanation of God.

There's fairly bigger underlying issues in their religion's theology and practice than trinitarianism imo.

>>41352

go back to your containment board

The best response is just to ask(rhetorically of course) why christians are more concerned about the Quran not copy-pasting 51438 different christians creeds from past and future verbatim, than they are about jesus in their bile itself showing himself to be ignorant of the tranity:

>"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.24:36

So there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Jesus spent so much time in in Egypt(doing god knows what), the Palestinian deserts lusting over satan's orgies, and pretending to be king-kong, that he forgot to study for the trinity exam.