6827da No.39808
According to the four sunni madahab it is halal to take interest on fiat currencies. These currencies are intentionally devalued by governments every year so in many cases it is required to be paid interest just to break even or lose less value. Holding fiat currency and refusing to take interest on it is the same as paying a tax/fee to the government for the privilege of holding their fiat currency which is stupid and shameful.
There is no basis in Islamic scholarship for calling this kind of interest as riba and too many muslims are ignorant about this matter or use it as a justification to stay poor.
And yes personally I would like to return to Gold standard and then yes interest with a gold backed currency is riba and clearly haram.
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6827da No.39809
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91d5ca No.39810
riba is still riba, even if its with wheat, barley, rice, dates, or paper
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6827da No.39811
>>39810
That is literally an unbacked up opinion akhi. And while I understand it is good to remain cautious and veer from the doubtful to the certain but this is not one of those matters that is doubtful imo. Imo if the Prophet saws saw the fake money we are paid in today he would laugh until we saw his molars but also cry until his beard was wet. Taking this money at face value is a kind of small shirk because we are treating something as valuable solely because the taghoot says it is and they have full power to change the value whenever they want, they are the Hubal of fiat money.
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91d5ca No.39815
>>39811
Hadith No: 382
Narrated/Authority of Ibn Shihab
From: Sahih Bukhari. Chapter 34, Sales and Trade
that Malik bin Aus said, "I was in need of change for one-hundred Dinars. Talha bin Ubaid-Ullah called me and we discussed the matter, and he agreed to change (my Dinars). He took the gold pieces in his hands and fidgeted with them, and then said, "Wait till my storekeeper comes from the forest." Umar was listening to that and said, "By Allah! You should not separate from Talha till you get the money from him, for Allah's Apostle said, 'The selling of gold for gold is Riba (usury) except if the exchange is from hand to hand and equal in amount, and similarly, the selling of wheat for wheat is Riba (usury) unless it is from hand to hand and equal in amount, and the selling of barley for barley is usury unless it is from hand to hand and equal in amount, and dates for dates, is usury unless it is from hand to hand and equal in amount"
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6827da No.39816
>>39815
The examples in the OP image address this. Commodities are treated like gold and silver. But this is different than fiat currency which was not in use in ancient Arabia at this time. The major roman debasements of currency happened centuries before and centuries after the Prophet’s time.
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dc793b No.39819
When Rome inflated the amount of money in circulation by decreasing the amount of silver in each coin minted (eventually to under 5% silver content), would that mean that it would be halal to take interest because they were devaluing the currency?
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dc793b No.39820
>>39811
>Imo if the Prophet saws saw the fake money
The Prophet PBUH knew that these times would come, and he knew what would be the condition of our monetary system.
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “A time will come upon people in which they will consume usury.” It was said, “All of the people?” The Prophet said, “Whoever does not consume it will be affected by its dust.”
Missing is the part where he PBUH says “but when money loses its intrinsic value, it IS NO LONGER HARAM to consumer usury.” Why would he PBUH talk about people who would willingly go out of their way to not consume usury and they would still be affected by it?
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27627d No.39821
>>39820
I know he knew the general fact but I don’t know if he knew the particulars ie pieces of paper that show men wearing wigs and stockings that look like women.
>Missing is the part where he PBUH says “but when money loses its intrinsic value, it IS NO LONGER HARAM to consumer usury.” Why would he PBUH talk about people who would willingly go out of their way to not consume usury and they would still be affected by it?
Missing from your analysis is ijtihad and the fact things are defacto halal in this deen unless explicitly mentioned. Any mention of dinar in the sunnah means gold and dirham means silver. Anything else is not just “money losing its intrinsic value” it is simply not actual money as intrinsic value is the defining characteristic pf money.
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91d5ca No.39823
>>39816
You are OP, and this hadith refutes your image. Riba does count for commodities as well, and the US fiat currency is based on oil, which is a commodity.
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27627d No.39825
>>39823
Yea, im OP. I have wifi and wireless data. I’m not trying to create a false consensus, believe me I am perfectly happy being the only person to believe what I do on this board.
No your hadith does not prove anything of the sort and even if you thought it did ahadith do not exist in a vacuum and they must be considered in the light of other ahadith and in the case of new developments: ijtihad. And if you think you can just crack open Sahih Bukhari and get all the answers you need for turnkey fiqh then why do we even have Ulema?
And just because oil is traded in dollars doesnt mean dollars is backed by oil bro. That’s like saying because fidget spinners are traded in dollars they are backed by dollars.
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dc793b No.39826
>>39821
Any mention of khumr in the sunnah is talking about alcohol. All kinds of modern drugs are not mentioned, but they are haram. They don't have to be explicitly mentioned to make ijtihad and to judge that they are intoxicants just the same, and the prohibition was centered around intoxicants.
Usury is strictly prohibited under all circumstances. It is prohibited to try to do work arounds of the prohibition (ie selling something to someone while promising to buy it back later at a higher price). It is prohibited to even trade unequal amounts of the same type of product (ie trading 3 weights of lesser quality dates for 1 weight of higher quality dates >>39815). Every possible instance of dealing in a way that might even come close to riba is strictly prohibited. The opinions of the 4 madthabs on the specifics of 'when and where usury may be allowed' are not proofs that it is acceptable. Scholars are not infallible and make mistakes. Usury is haram.
Contraceptives did not exist at the time of the Prophet PBUH. Nowadays you have some Muslims that say Zina is not haram anymore because with contraceptives there is no risk of creating bastard children. That was the only reason it was prohibited in the first place. People will always find a way to justify the things that they really want to do, and you cannot talk them out of it with any amount of arguments or evidence.
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27627d No.39827
>>39826
>All kinds of modern drugs are not mentioned, but they are haram
Last I checked it is not so clear cut. Are you going to tell mujahideen who take captagon and adderall to stay up for ribat that they are actually just druggies? And let me remind you at one time coffee was considered haram by many muslims. Do you still abide by that old ruling and consider coffee drinkers like me to be intoxicators? It seems you are forgetting not just ijtihad but INTENTION which is incredibly important. Taking a chemical with the niyyah of intoxication is what is always 100% haram.
>contraceptives, zins
>That was the only reason it was prohibited in the first place.
Except I am not opining as to why Riba is haram. I accept it as haram. The issue is I deny fiat currency is real money. Calling interest on fiat to be “riba” is like calling onanism with an inflatable doll “zina.” The money is not real in one case and the woman is not real in the other.
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91d5ca No.39830
>>39825
>No your hadith does not prove anything of the sort
Not my hadith, and also it does. Your pdf says anything that isnt gold, is ok to do riba with, but the hadith shows even with non metal currency riba is haram. Thus, riba is haram in general, whichever thing you use as currency, could be seashells or bitcoin, its still haram.
You are making sufi dajjal arguments, most ulema agree even modern fiat currency can still be used in riba, and thus riba with it is haram.
Your source just says MALIKI SCHOOL : etc.. no actual sources, just a shady PDF from a random guy.
Also, the zahiri school is the closest to the correct opinion (because they take the evident), but they dont use qiyas so they limit it to the literal 6 commodities in the hadith. But by logic, we can expand that to oil & other foods as well, and it's a fact that the petro dollar, is backed by oil. It replaced the gold standard.
I don't see why you are pushing riba like the jews did before us and not bringing any evidence, make fallacious arguments.
>believe me I am perfectly happy being the only person to believe what I do on this board.
You can risk consuming fire for centuries in hell, and you can risk starting a war with Allah if you want, but ask yourself is it worth it for following desires and getting a few thousands every year with no work like a jew? Or is it safer to just follow the vast consensus of modern scholars on the issue of riba with fiat currencies.
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91d5ca No.39831
>>39825
Also I replied to 18120f not 51f4d5. I had no idea you were OP thanks for clearing that up.
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aca97c No.39839
>>39827
>Taking a chemical with the niyyah of intoxication is what is always 100% haram.
Usury is always 100% haram. Coffee and other stimulants are not always intoxicating substances. Usury is always Usurious and always has the same effects.
No you aren’t trying to explain why usury is haram, even though its negative effects on society are so obvious that even non-Muslims write entire books on the subject. You are trying to say that because our currencies are not tied to any kind of commodity to protect their value, that they are constantly losing purchasing power, and that for these reasons it somehow becomes okay to consume usury. Fiat money isn’t like fcking an inflatable doll. Fiat money can purchase products of all kinds (even gold and silver), an inflatable doll is not alive and will not get pregnant.
You seem to think that because the Sahaba RA had their money in gold and silver that they were somehow more financially stable than we are today. Such a concept is laughably stupid, considering all the luxurious items that we have access to from living in an industrialized society. The Sahaba RA had to worry about whether or not they would have food at certain times. While there are many poor people that have this problem, they don’t even have any savings to worry about having to consume usury from saving it in a bank or in bonds. The fact that you have actually have savings means that you are better off financially than most of the people living on the earth.
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dd66af No.39843
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
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6827da No.39846
>>39839
Hi bro id like to come back to your post inshaAllah later but im busy. Our talk has to focus on the reality of modern “money” since we likely dont differ about Quran+Sunnah. I am in the camp of Ron Paul and Robert Kiyosaki who acknowledge fiat for what it is: denominated debt. And the reality of the situation demands that I be compensated in some form for the farce of this fake money. Sticking head in the sand and pretending this money is real is not a solution and it actually lends legitimacy to the taghoot fiat system. Maybe we need to agree on a definition of “REAL” because you are proceeding from the syllogistic premise that this money is real therefore the riba is real. I deny that premise entirely.
>No you aren’t trying to explain why usury is haram, even though its negative effects on society are so obvious that even non-Muslims write entire books on the subject.
There have also been books by non-muslims about how the lack of riba held back the economic development of various Islamic empires from the Umayyads to the Ottomans. So what? The fact is bad money drives out good money (Gresham’s Law) and as soon as the European Pagans/Trinis decided to create modern currencies we were never going to surpass them economically. Maybe there was some wisdom in that, maybe it is a blessing we were sparred the sweatshops and brutalization of 19th century industrial revolutions and the communist/fascism disorder that brought with it.
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aca97c No.39847
>>39846
>books by non-muslims about how the lack of riba held back the economic development of various Islamic empires
I’ve never heard of such books but I am fairly certain that they are filled with skewed facts and false conclusions. When there is no interest, there is no benefit from keeping your money in the bank and not spending it. With the zakat system, people are forced to pay a 2.5% charity for their savings that they hold for a period of 1 year. Those laws encourage wealthy people to try to invest/loan their money to small businesses and people that could use that money to generate income and jobs for other people. The wealthy people that do that don’t have to pay zakat on that money and they have the opportunity to earn profits from the businesses they invest in. The poor people with an entrepreneurial spirit have easier access to business capital through loans. If these principles do anything they encourage development. Usury is a detriment to society on so many levels, I don’t even know where to start.
>premise that this money is real
This money can be used to buy silver, gold, food, and everything that could possibly be sold on the market. It has purchasing power because people consider it to be valuable and it is a medium of exchange. Based on those two principles alone, it is very much real. Usury is prohibited on trading anything of value. Fiat money can be traded for things that have value, it is a medium of exchange. Once this paper money reaches its absolute end (having no value) it is still worth its weight in scrap paper. It would be riba and haram to trade unequal amounts of scrap paper based on the hadith >>39815.
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81ed71 No.39848
>>39808
"Zina with sex robots is halal because the Prophet PBUH never told us about fake women"
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9eae3b No.39849
>>39848
I don't think it would be zina to have sex with a sex robot, I've never heard of any scholar ruling that using a sex doll is zina. I'm sure it's not permitted from some other angle though.
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81ed71 No.39850
>>39849
Exactly. It may not be the exact same thing as the ones mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah but we can be sure it's still haram.
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afb8c5 No.40123
>>39850
>we can be sure it's still haram
I fail to see how though. Is it because it counts as masturbation, and masturbation is haram; or because it counts as zina, and zina is haram ?
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40e498 No.40126
>>39808
>According to the four sunni madahab it is halal to take interest on fiat currencies.
We're doomed.
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40e498 No.40127
>>40123
Living in a country that forces you to take interest is Haram.
>These currencies are intentionally devalued by governments every year
There's your masturbation.
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9134f0 No.40135
>>40127
Are you sure you're replying to me ? >>40123
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