db8339 No.30163
What's the Islamic argument against Communism?
I just talked to a brother who said communism works in theory and is compatible with Islam. I told him how Marx was atheist, lenin pushed militant atheism, stalin, mao and the rest of the big-name commies were anti-God, anti-religion, basically had no ethics. Also listed the atrocities they committed, but he denied the numbers or extent and said it was western propaganda.
In terms of ideology and society it doesn't seem to fit the sharia and normal economic transactions. What say you?
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dd3655 No.30164
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6ae3b7 No.30165
Communism is inherently a secular ideology, secularism is not compatible with shariah. It's also mainly an economic theory, which has some similarities with islam such as sharing wealth, but also contradicts with islamic rights such as private property. In the end, Islam has it's own shariah economy, based precious metals or commodities and focuses on fair and usury free commerce. But mandatory wealth distribution is also applies, zakat for muslims and jizyah for non muslims.
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ceb7c4 No.30172
Communism was created by upper middle class people with little knowledge of the true struggles of the working class. The labour theory of value for example does not take into account the 'invisible work' that must be done in order to produce something and looks at a product as a result of simple cause and effect which is far from the case.
Islam already addressed these issues. The regular crashing of the economy for example is brought about by riba which creates massive inflation. The uncontrolled acquisition of wealth can be tempered with wealth taxation which disincentivises miserliness, stimulating the economy. The lack of money for the poor is addressed by zakat.
If you're serious about fighting wealth inequality use Islamic banks in place of the bank you use now, avoid paying by card but rather prefer cash, avoid paying by cash if you can pay in crypto and try to make the extra effort to use supplies that support the method of payment less beneficial to banks. Stop respecting the joke that is 'intellectual property' beyond what the law requires of you and use and promote libre software. Most of all teach people what you know, information is a very powerful thing.
You likely won't do everything I listed, but try to do as much as you can muster because it'll be better than nothing.
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4773a2 No.30191
>>30163
> I told him how Marx was atheist, lenin pushed militant atheism, stalin, mao and the rest of the big-name commies were anti-God, anti-religion, basically had no ethics.
It is a very bold claim to say that atheism means no ethics. Atheists may claim the opposite: that it is the believers who have no ethics, for they are doing good only because they are threatened with divine punishment and bribed with rewards. But I digress. This is not what you asked.
> In terms of ideology and society it doesn't seem to fit the sharia and normal economic transactions. What say you?
Personally, I do not consider myself an expert on Islam to say anything on the matter. I can say that I've heard claims that Communism is the only economic system that makes sense for industrial economy under Islam (Islamic banks were considered insufficient, to put it mildly).
Additionally, I need to clarify some other things here.
>>30165
I do not agree with the definitions of Communism/Socialism in your picture. To understand my disagreement better, consider people answering "what is islam?" with "blowing people up with bombs". It is both wrong and offensive.
> has some similarities with islam such as sharing wealth
If you want similarities with islam, Communism is about abolishing usury in all forms. Income of Capitalists is understood by Communists as the one derived from wealth (rather than actual work), which makes it - in essence - usurious.
Communism is not about sharing wealth. It's about unifying control over means of production (those means of production that cannot be effectively managed otherwise - not all) in the hands of society (understood primarily as workers that work on those MoP).
> but also contradicts with islamic rights such as private property.
Would you mind explaining what do you mean by private property?
When the term "private property" is used by Socialists (Communists / Anarchists; not SocDem or whoever), it is the wage labour that is meant (as private appropriation of someone else's fruits of labour).
I.e. in the context of discussion, you are saying that hiring other people is islamic right. Is that so? I've been told otherwise, but - again - I'm no expert on Islam.
>>30172
> Islam already addressed these issues.
"Already"? You seem to be confusing Marxism and Communism.
Communism is quite old. It dates back to the early Christian communes (hence the name). Even before that, if you aren't attached to the name "Communism".
Marxism is "recent" Communism theory (from 19th century) and it is about proving and clarifying economic necessity of Communism, as well as explaining necessity of universal Communism, rather than regional or national - as it was usually suggested by pre-Marxist Communists (neo-Babouvists, for example).
> The labour theory of value for example does not take into account the 'invisible work' that must be done in order to produce something and looks at a product as a result of simple cause and effect which is far from the case.
LTV cannot "not take into account" anything, since it says that prices on market tend to fluctuate around price of all work that went into creation of goods.
Moreover, disproving LTV disproves most of modern economic theory (it is built on ideas of Adam Smith, who heavily relied on LTV which was also his idea; LTV was not invented Karl Marx as some people tend to think due to "labour" bit).
> The lack of money for the poor is addressed by zakat.
It's not about the money. People tend to find it demeaning to subsist on handouts, they want (and need) honest work. AFAIK, zakat does not address unemployment.
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6ae3b7 No.30193
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dd3655 No.30197
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6ae3b7 No.30220
>>30197
He simply defined communism, it's still incompatible with Islam.
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dd3655 No.30222
>>30220
"t. leftypol" does not define Communism.
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132301 No.30225
>>30220
>communism is compatible with islam
no. communism wants no money, islam assumes money (gold backed) is in circulation, and taxes are possible and trade is possible and free-enterprise is possible.
communism wants no private property, islam allows private property.
communism/marxism in its pure form is inherently anti-God anti-idealism/spirituality.
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6ae3b7 No.30247
>>30222
He did, not me.
>>30225
I agree lol
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dd3655 No.30248
>>30225
Communism seeks to put control of the means of production in the hands of the worker. The best example of it that we have in the US is Uber/Lyft. See, taxis are controlled by local government while Uber is controlled by private enterprise. This puts the means of production (taxi cabs) in the hands of the people. Textbook Communism.
Is Islam anti-Uber? Of course not!
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ceb7c4 No.30249
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dd3655 No.30250
>>30249
What part did you not understand?
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4773a2 No.30251
Apparently, I need to make a second post in this thread.
>>30193
What is the essence of your complaint? Does it annoy you that it is the real thing that is discussed, rather than some cheap slander?
>>30225
> communism wants no money
This is a gross oversimplification. Why would anyone care about bits of paper or metal?
Primary function of money is understood by Marxists as facilitation of usury (understood broadly). Consequently, abolition of this usury abolishes this kind of money. It is in this sense "communism wants no money".
If people receive gold-backed notes (or even actual gold coins) as a reward for work and then use them in whatever way that does not involve usury, those notes/coins would not function as aforementioned "money" - they will not be money. Those notes/coins will be referred to as "labour vouchers". Obviously, those notes/coins would also be recognized by others (general public) as money: you can buy goods from shops/markets, you can directly pay to some individual artisan or co-operative for their work/goods.
>communism wants no private property, islam allows private property.
You did not clarify what you mean by "private property". As I already asked: does Islam consider wage labour to be the basic right? Because that is what we are talking about.
>communism/marxism in its pure form is inherently anti-God anti-idealism/spirituality.
In the same sense math is "inherently anti-God".
>>30248
>Communism seeks to put control of the means of production in the hands of the worker.
This is Socialism (i.e. broad position of abolition of wage labour that encompasses both Anarchism and Communism). Communism has more narrow focus, which suggests social ownership as the method of such control over MoP.
> The best example of it that we have in the US is Uber/Lyft. … This puts the means of production (taxi cabs) in the hands of the people. Textbook Communism.
Nonsense.
Firstly, means of production refer to all means of production. That is, everything that is necessary for functioning of the production/service. Uber quite explicitly requires external web-service to function - and taxi drivers have no control over it. I.e. Uber is not even Socialist.
This is obvious in practice even if you don't know much theory or how Uber works:
https://www.newsweek.com/uber-drivers-strike-across-us-cities-526247
Actual owners would not be striking to get higher wages.
Secondly, even if company is fully owned by workers, it is still not Communism, as company depends on other companies to function. The whole production process needs to be socialized, not just one link in the chain of production. And, due to interconnectedness of economy, this means that almost all production needs to be socialised as one entity. This is what Communism is about.
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ceb7c4 No.30252
>>30250
What you said is on par with 'socialism is when the government does stuff'
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dd3655 No.30253
>>30252
No, fascism is when the government controls everything. Communism is when the people control everything. Simplistic, yes, but it's good enough.
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6ae3b7 No.30255
>>30251
It bothers me that leftypol lurks our board.
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da70e0 No.30258
>>30253
Communism always has a central committee that pretends to represent the People, but is just like any other dictatorship. Don't delude yourself kid
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dd3655 No.30262
>>30255
Everyone is welcome here. It bothers me that /pol/ has tried (and failed) to take over this board many times, but it is how we react to them that matters. If they're here to learn about Islam, good. If they're here to deride Islam or spread falsehood, then they'll be shown the door. It is up to us to not respond to trolls.
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487b9b No.30264
>>30163
If you want to learn about communism, read this book.
Joseph Stalin wanted to show off how cool communism was to the west, so he decided to build a huge shipping canal in the middle of winter. People from forced labor camps were brought in to do the work using only hand tools and wheel barrows. People were made to work impossibly long shifts in summer clothing. Over a million people died during the construction, many froze to death. When the canal was finished, it wasn’t made deep enough, so no military vessel, even submarines, could use it. It was a complete worthless boondoggle of death. That is one among countless numbers of atrocities committed by that anti-human ideology. Unimaginable stupidity, forced atheism and inhuman evil are the only ways to describe communism.
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04ccb4 No.30271
Islam promotes private property coupled with charity-Communism does not.
Current communist theories are anti-religion. Islam is a religion.
I read someone defining private property as stealing labour. What?!
I guess this is all I can say without crossing the boundaries of this board.
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4d4a9c No.30341
>>30253
Fascism isn't when the government does anything.
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5a2e4d No.30372
No. Communism is atheist and appeals to the “fatherland” or Lenin are shirk.
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4d4a9c No.32053
I know this might sound autistic but are their analogies between Islam and socialism/communism in terms of organisation and certain ideas. I know they are obviously different but I think there is some similarity (of course Allah's system is above all).
>both have a "revolutionary" nature (they both seek to change the system into something radically different)
>both usually transcend nations and believe in an idea rather than tribalism/nationalism and wish to spread across the world
>both have popularity among the lower classes and third world because they both promote in terms of rhetoric making things better
>both have emphasis on social justice (by this I mean removing gap between rich and poor and making living standards better)
>mumin and kufr/proletariat and bourgeise
>both have their own government form in contrast to capitalist liberal democracy (socialist commune and the caliphate)
>many muslims say democracy will not help muslims and many socialists say democracy will not help proles so they both promote taking power outside the system
I'm not saying communism is good, just saying
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47fbbc No.32066
>>32053
I can find similarities with nazis also, does not mean anything.
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4d4a9c No.32072
>>32066
it is because they are all collectivist ideologies (prefer needs of community over individual)
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47fbbc No.32073
Women representation in society:
Capitalism, Communism and Islam.
Body, Labor or Akhlaq.
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1fabd8 No.32079
>>32073
Very awesome. I was out running the other day and saw one woman waiting for a shuttle home since she has no male guardian. Islam can solve this. No woman should have to be shuttled home by a stranger. Probably unmarried too.
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4d4a9c No.32081
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3e74e7 No.32083
On the topic of the original post, OP, that is insane. Communism and nationalism are basically the same thing with the flimsiest of pretexts. they are brutalities to the highest degree of savagery. I recommend you actually read about communism before picking it up as a fashion statement. I used to be like you but with the nationalism.
>>32081
It's a bus designed just to transport small amounts of people
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bd5480 No.32085
>>30163
>can one be a muslim and a communist?
No, one cannot serve two masters.
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7496ac No.35254
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7496ac No.35255
There have been alliances in the past, the RAF training with the PLO comes to mind.
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48dd66 No.35259
Marxism is the ideology of the Anti-Christ
When the Anti-Christ will come on earth, he will say he wants to liberate the ploretariat.
The Soviet Union was the country of Shaytan. Do you know how many Afghans they have killed? Do you know how many mosques in central asia were destroyed by them?
If you say you are communist, you are our enemy.
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4080d1 No.35260
>>30191
>hurr, you only do good because you want to go to heaven
We can also then say that you lot "only do good because you want to look good infront of others or because you want praises from others" and atheists literally have no ethics. Because they don't even believe in morality.
>>30191
>gommunism is the only economic system that makes sense because it'll surely work this time around!
in the time of Umar ibn Abdul aziz they ran out of poor people to give zakat to, bring any system that has done something similar
>gommunism is all about abolishing usury
lol
>but muh shekels and efficiency; but muh marxism/ leninism isn't real gommunism
For our current society to transform into a communist ones, more people have their rights taken away than the number of people who "finally gets their due".
The current problem in our hyper-capitalistic society is not "workers not owning the means of production". It's due to people being greedy, pure and simple. People with authority do not magically become super-ethical once they manage to usher in communism. As clearly seen from the previous atheist-communist states. Another perfect example of how an atheist society literally cannot function since no one has any moral compass and try to abuse power. Infact, even in our current society, this is prevalent since the people in power do not usually believe in God but at the same time, don't want to push too much because they know that they cannot push too far.
>zakat does not address unemployment
lol.
>>30251
>if we just call it in a different name, it'll be alright! it's not money bro. It's "labour vouchers"!
I don't see why you keep bringing up usury since riba(interest) is literally haram in Islam. Trading is allowed, interest is not. Trading can increase the price of a certain thing but that is only due to the people coming to a mutual and honest agreement regarding it.
>math is "inherently anti-God"
>math and gommunism is equivalent
>tipping this hard
>workers can manage to take control of all means of production
>and that's why the state needs to take control of everything because even with all of our mental gymnastics we know that that primary condition can never be fullfilled
>claiming to "free" people from slavery and slave mentality while making sure that they become even more of a slave
>literally handing out all power to a single entity in order to "free" people from human greed
This is your brain on atheism.
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73f5f0 No.43653
>>30191
>Atheists may claim the opposite: that it is the believers who have no ethics, for they are doing good only because they are threatened with divine punishment and bribed with rewards
Who is Rabia Al-Basri, Alex?
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85e36f No.43983
>>30191
atheists have no ethics because they have no moral standards
and like the other brother has said, they don't even believe in morality since morality is not something that exists empirically
morality is just nonsense made up by humans
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