/islam/ - 8kun Masjid

>>29708

>it looks like I will be the only white guy there and it would be hard to fit in

That right there is why you need to definitely regularly go to the mosque. Being Muslim is more important than being White. You will fit in and nobody will care that you're white. If you go to mosque, you'll learn that quickly and it will end any anxiety you have concerning it.

Otherwise, just pick one and go. There is no need for an invitation - God already invited you to his house. Just walk on in and greet the first brother you see, shake his hand, and tell him you're new. Obviously if you go during a prayer time, you should sit quietly in the back and don't disturb prayer. Also, don't forget to take off your shoes.

Soon as you can take a deep breath and go. You will be amazed at how welcome you are.

>>29709

>Being Muslim is more important than being White.

Definitely. My anxiety has always revolved around fitting in, so I was just worried that since I'm different in terms of appearance/culture, they might not want me around because that might be a bother.

I trust what you say, though.

>Otherwise, just pick one and go. There is no need for an invitation - God already invited you to his house. Just walk on in and greet the first brother you see, shake his hand, and tell him you're new.

Praise be to God. :) Do I need to know anything beforehand? Can they ask me any questions about the faith or something? Everything I learned is self-taught, so I just want to observe how they pray and maybe end up having a Muslim friend my age. Something to keep me more grounded to the religion, you know? And okay about the shoes.

>Obviously if you go during a prayer time, you should sit quietly in the back and don't disturb prayer.

If I go tomorrow (Friday), it will be the most busy, I think. Around what prayer or time do you think it would be the best to go?

>Soon as you can take a deep breath and go. You will be amazed at how welcome you are.

Thank you for posting, I think I really want to go tomorrow.

Trust in Allah, anxiety takes lots of work to get rid of but it can be done and this is a great step towards conquering it.

>>29710

Definitely go tomorrow. It's obligatory for every able bodied man to go to mosque on Friday. You'll have to check your local time to figure out the best time to go.

http://www.islamicity.org/PrayerTimes/

The Friday prayer, called "jumu'ah" is held in place of the regular daily zuhr prayer. So, check on what time that will be held and try to arrive maybe half an hour early so that you have time to properly wash (wudu) and meet some of the brothers. Just do what they do and you'll be fine.

Mistakes do happen. The first time I went to mosque I was given a Qur'an and I placed it on the floor when I bent over to put my shoes back on. Kind of a big no-no, but I was very politely corrected and we had a bit of a laugh about it. Don't expect to get everything perfect and right.

You don't have to sign in or anything to go to a mosque. Just take off your shoes where everyone else does, do wudhu if you have to, go to the place with all the carpet and pray. They have every reason to be welcoming to a believer. Nobody is going to be upset because there's a Muslim in a mosque.

The only thing I'd be wary of is to check whether the mosque is actually Islamic. There's a group called the Ahmadiyya, and they have mosques too. Their fundamental beliefs are different, and you don't want them trying to pull you from Islam. Usually their mosques have Ahmad or something in the name, so it should be obvious.

>>29715

I would go with the man's house or the large islamic center. imo its better to meet more muslims

>>29718

True. Although the man's house doesn't have a sign posted or anything, so maybe it's just for him and for his friends. I might just have to go to the center, haha.

Update time! How did it go?

Update us ;-;

My first time posting here. English is not my native language.

As in every religion, you will find out that all these religions clinging to Abraham's Monotheism are quite different. Politics, power, desire, culture, traditions, even language are all embedded into them for centuries if not millennia. I am not trying to start a controversy here, but since you are fresh to the idea of islam, let me ask you a simple question.

Regardless of their religion or faction, pretty much everyone believe their belief system is the truth, and a reliable pathway to a promised place. How do you figure out which one is THE one?

>>43091

You will see that there are many common themes throughout the world’s religions. The story of a great flood is probably the most common, but there are many other stories. That is because many of the world’s religions came from the same source, Allah. Over time they got corrupted and changed. God sent thousands of messengers to humanity throughout all of time with the same message. Worship God alone, do good deeds and forbid evil deeds. The Bible had many of its stories changed to make Prophets look bad, committing heinous crimes.

I guess I failed to address >>29708 for my question, but I appreciate your reply. I will respond to you, and hope the OP can chip in too.

>>43091

>Read the Quran.

What if my question was asked in a Jewish or Christian forum? Would the answer be the same? A biased statement is not an answer.

>The Quran is the literal word of God. It is proven by its consistency being preserved for over 1400 years, through scientific miracles in the Quran, and by logic, reason, and man’s common intuition.

Another non-answer statement.

Curious, what's preserved about Quran? Do you mean millions of copies are exactly the same to the letter? Please explain.

>The weakest hadith is more authentic than the Bible.

A statement unrelated to my question.

Curious, what makes a "weak" hearsay more authentic than a whole book of hearsays? What's the differences and similarities between Hadith Books and the Bible? What is the process to authenticate a hearsay?

>Hinduism’s many gods and idolatry make no sense. Buddhism has people looking inward for their answers when they should be looking to who created them and why.

Non-answer statement.

Curious, please define "idolatry".

>>43092

>You will see that there are many common themes throughout the world’s religions. The story of a great flood is probably the most common, but there are many other stories. That is because many of the world’s religions came from the same source, Allah. Over time they got corrupted and changed.

That I roughly mentioned as clinging to "Abraham's Monotheism". If all these monotheistic religions got corrupted and changed in time, how do you know if you aren't walking a corrupt path? How do you find a similar path with Abraham?

>>43106

>A biased statement is not an answer.

If you want to learn why people believe that Islam is the truth, you have to know what the message of Islam is. The message of Islam is the Quran.

>Do you mean millions of copies are exactly the same to the letter? Please explain.

Every single copy of the Quran is the exact same, down to the letter.

>Curious, what makes a "weak" hearsay more authentic than a whole book of hearsays? What's the differences and similarities between Hadith Books and the Bible? What is the process to authenticate a hearsay?

Meaning no one knows who the authors of the Gospels are. That makes them weak in their narration. The weakest hadith is authenticated using a complex system of verification-making sure each narration has a chain of narrators that not only existed but were trustworthy and reliable sources of information.

>please define "idolatry"

worshiping idols. An idol is something like a statue of Krishna or Buddha.

>how do you know if you aren't walking a corrupt path? How do you find a similar path with Abraham?

Because of the Quran. Every Prophet PBUH was sent with a miracle. The Prophet Muhammad's miracle was the Quran. A recitation of stories and ordinances that tells the story of Abraham, among other things. All Prophets according to Christians and Jews are descended from Isaac. Muhammad is descended from Ishmael. Both of them are sons of Abraham. In the Bible Isaac was the one that was offered up for sacrifice, but even using their own sources of information that can be proven to be false. Ishmael was the one that was offered up for sacrifice as a test to Abraham. Christians and Jews claim that Ismael was illegitimate, so therefor didn't count as one of Abraham's children.

>Another non-answer statement.

Ask vague questions and expect to get an assortment of different answers.

>>43106

A hearsay is defined as information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.

Hadiths are graded according to their level of authenticity. Graded using guidelines in such a way that rivals any other system of grading in human history.

But at the same time, these general guidelines – in their general philosophy, but not in their minor details – are derived from some shar‘i principles that are mentioned in the texts of the Qur’an and Sunnah. There are general shar‘i texts that outline to the scholars of hadith the basic principles of the science of history and reports. As for the details, they were left to be developed through the accumulation of practice and experience, as referred to above.

Some of these general shar‘i principles are as follows:

1. The stern prohibition on lying about hadiths (narration from the Prophet PBUH), as the Prophet PBUH said: “Lying about me is not like lying about anyone else. Whoever tells a lie about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.

2. Not accepting the report of an evildoer. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! If a Fasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done.

3. Stipulation that the narrator should be of good character, by analogy with the requirement for a witness to be of good character. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “And take as witness two just persons from among you (Muslims). And establish the testimony for Allah.

4. Constant verification and checking. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those one will be questioned (by Allah).

5. Warning against odd and weird reports. It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah RA that the Prophet PBUH said: “At the end of time there will be liars and charlatans who will bring ahaadeeth that neither you nor your forefathers ever heard. Beware of them and stay away from them, and do not let them mislead you or confuse you.

6. Refraining from knowingly narrating a report that is a lie, as the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever narrates a hadeeth from me knowing that it is false is one of the liars.

7. Precise memorisation is the basis of trustworthiness. The Prophet PBUH said: “May Allah bless a man who hears a hadeeth from us and memorizes it so that he can convey it to others, for perhaps he is conveying it to one who will understand it better than him, and perhaps the one who conveys knowledge does not understand it himself.

8. Warning against putting oneself under suspicion by narrating a lot of weird reports and not being selective in what one narrates. It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah RA said: The Messenger of Allah PBUH said: “It is sufficient lying for a man to speak of everything that he hears.

9. Seeking evidence and proof. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “Say (O Muhammad PBUH), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful’.

10.Seeking certain knowledge, far removed from speculation and illusion. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “But they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but conjecture, and verily, conjecture is no substitute for the truth”.

Some of these texts were quoted as evidence by Imam Muslim RA in the Introduction to his Saheeh, where he said:

You should know, may Allah guide you, that it is obligatory for everyone who can distinguish between sound and unsound reports, and between trustworthy and dubious narrators, not to narrate any report unless he is sure of the soundness and honesty of their narrators, and to avoid those which are narrated by dubious narrators and those who stubbornly follow bid ah (innovation).

The evidence for what we are saying and that it should not be any other way is the words of Allah, may He be blessed and exalted:

“O you who believe! If a Faasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done

Those are some basic premises, but the authentication of hadith is a very complex science…one too complex to go into depth in this forum.

>>43107

>If you want to learn why people believe that Islam is the truth, you have to know what the message of Islam is. The message of Islam is the Quran.

This is exactly what I mentioned in the opening statement of my original question. You aren't giving me an answer, but simply saying your belief system is the truth, and all I have to do is to follow it. OK, I’ll play. What if you are misguided and not aware of it? Are you smarter than a Jew or a Christian? I can assure you they are not stupid. Who built your computer? Who built airplanes? Who built pretty much modern everything? Yet somehow, they are misguided and you are not? Think again. You can say “read Quran” a thousand times, and it won’t answer my question. Not because it is not a valid solution, but because it is not an answer the question I specifically asked. Read the first sentence leading up to the question. The answer has to be universally acceptable. Let's start over. Here is the question again, please read carefully. It's simple.

QUESTION ONE: Regardless of their religion or faction, pretty much everyone believe their belief system is the truth, and a reliable pathway to a promised place. How do you figure out which one is THE one?

I will respond to the rest in different segments. Let’s get back to this first question before it turns into a soup of information.

>>43114

>simply saying your belief system is the truth

Because it is the truth and this board is not for defending that. If you want comparative religious studies discussion, then you'll need to find the appropriate board. /islam/ is for Muslims to discuss Islam with other Muslims, not for defending our beliefs.

>>43114

>Let’s get back to this first question before it turns into a soup of information.

>Regardless of their religion or faction, pretty much everyone believe their belief system is the truth, and a reliable pathway to a promised place. How do you figure out which one is THE one?

You ask very broad questions and then you are not happy with the answers that you are given. You then attack these answers and are given a further explanation of what is meant and still you are not happy with the answers.

You asked the question

>How do you figure out which one is THE one?

How do you figure out which religion is THE one? First you have to have an understanding of what the different religions are. Then you have to have an understanding of which one is THE ONE. In answer to this question, read the Quran. It is the simplest, most concise answer there is. Many people become Muslim simply by reading the Quran. You wanted input from OP. Because he is a convert? I am a convert. I converted after I read the Quran. If you are dissatisfied with the answer to your extremely broad question, maybe you should try asking something else.

>>43114

>You aren't giving me an answer, but simply saying your belief system is the truth, and all I have to do is to follow it.

I'm telling you to read a book.

>>43117

Yes! That passes as an answer. I had to push to get something out, which is fine… Thanks for your patience and kind responses. Questions kickstart brains. Statements and speeches don't.

Honoring the first part of my question, my answer would be:

"If everyone thinks their religion holds the truth, but since there can only be one Truth, all religions might be wrong." That I think, is the most fitting answer.

Most people are born into religious cultures. We naturally go along with what our families define as the norm. Religions are nothing but socially and politically constructed traditions. That is my response to "understanding what different religions are". If you don't risk your family relationships and willingly break away from them, you can't find the truth.

2:170 If they are told, "Follow what God has sent down," they say, "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not reason much and were not guided?

I'll continue…

>>43132

>If everyone thinks their religion holds the truth, but since there can only be one Truth, all religions might be wrong.

Something cannot come from nothing. Therefor there has to be a creator. It has to be a single creator. That creator would not create human beings without giving them some form of guidance. In Islamic tradition guidance has been sent throughout mankind's history as I said >>43092. The Quran is the final message that remains unaltered to this day.

>We naturally go along with what our families define as the norm.

As a convert to Islam I would say otherwise. When someone is presented with the truth, they will accept it.

>If you don't risk your family relationships and willingly break away from them, you can't find the truth.

Many converts lose all of their friends and their family disprove of their conversion to Islam but they do it anyway. The truth (Islam) is more important to them.

>>43132

>2:170 If they are told, "Follow what God has sent down," they say, "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not reason much and were not guided?

Even though translations differ slightly the verse is "And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?"

Are you trying to make some kind of altered Quran tafsir bull🤬 from the point of view of an obvious atheist? You have no idea who that verse was referring to and what context it was being used in. Trying to use it to say that following a religion because your father follows it is stupid because they "did not reason much nor were they guided" is blasphemous.

>I'll continue…

I think you should stop.

>>43140

Sorry for cutting it short and responding late. I've been pretty swamped.

Here, I believe I pasted from Edip-Layth translation. Multiple translations to compare for each verse. I'm not a fan of Ahmed Shabbir, but I see the reason why they have his work included, so I don't turn it off, but it's a lot of commentaries which I don't prefer. Sometimes he goes too far, sometimes his work is useful.

http://quranix.org/2#170

Hover over the Arabic text and then also click it to see what features that website has. It's a very good source to not just read but study Quran through and through.

While we are talking about different translations…

>Every single copy of the Quran is the exact same, down to the letter.

Have you checked millions of copies throughout the history to the letter? No. Learn about Hafs and Warsh readings. Most common two of at least 30 different readings I can list (if you want). You can do your own research. The meanings don't change much, but they are written differently. Some intentionally to make it easier to read for different dialects, some unintended errors. You can print your own different copy and multiply it. God won't miracluosly correct the print. This type of thinking is why I mentioned Abraham's defience of his fathers' religion. Same thing, different names, different times. But God promised He will protect Quran, right? Yes, it's a master copy which you can extract from all these copies. There is a built in error correction system embedded into Quran. One of the oldest copies, Tashkent copy proved that the work done by the Monotheist Group is working. So, rest assured, promise kept. Think it as a copy saved in the cloud. A Master Copy.

>Are you trying to make some kind of altered Quran tafsir bull🤬 from the point of view of an obvious atheist? You have no idea who that verse was referring to and what context it was being used in. Trying to use it to say that following a religion because your father follows it is stupid because they "did not reason much nor were they guided" is blasphemous.

You have looked at my nickname, and you still call me an atheist? You were the one telling me to read Quran multiple times. I'll save you the search, it is 74:30.

Back to Abraham. Do you think Quran has a single verse that does not address you (or me)? When God criticizes Jews, do you think it's just some Jews in the past, or you doing a similar mistake? People read Quran countless times, some can recite it from memory. Only a few understand it. Very few. I'm not trying to act all mysterious, it is true.

>>43140

6:25 Among them are those who listen to you, and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not acknowledge; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject say, "This is nothing but the tales from the past!"

Who are these people who read the book but can't understand a thing? People who defy Quran? For sure, they read to find errors in it. What about us? The book isn't for them, it's for people who want to learn from it. Right? Then ALL the messages must be meant for us to take a lesson from. I can assure you, that's how it is.

If Quran verses contradict with your religion. What would you do? Would you ignore Quran, or think about revisiting your religion? God's message and people's religion are two different things. Not even close.

Eg. "Amin".

Any mention in Quran?

Where does it come from? Jews.

Where did Moses save Jews from? Egypt.

Who were they worshipping in Egypt? The pharaohs.

Name a pharaoh? Amen.

It took me two years to forget "Amin", and it still hovers my mind when I talk to God. And I apologize for my lack of control over my memories.

>worshiping idols. An idol is something like a statue of Krishna or Buddha.

Idols are not statues. Idols are the theology and ideology behind those statues. Statues only function as a tool. People who are behind the ideas are the idols, the "other gods". As long as you focus on statues, you will feel safe. These people know the idol is made by the village sculptor, but still worship it? How stupid are they? Not that elementary level simple. That's how we all go misguided.

>I think you should stop.

You are free to think whatever you want. I support that actually.

>>43181

>Have you checked millions of copies throughout the history to the letter? No. Learn about Hafs and Warsh readings. Blah blah blah

There are different ways of reading or reciting the same written word. The written words are exactly the same, down to the letter, in every copy of the Quran. This compilation was done during Uthman's reign as Khalifa…So under 50 years after the Prophet's PBUH death. I don't need to read through millions of copies of the Quran, because it is common, universal knowledge that they are the exact same. The different readings were allowed because people from different tribes couldn't easily pronounce certain words in certain ways. So they were allowed to pronounce them in ways that were easy for them.

Learn about what you are talking about, maybe make a few google searches before you go telling other people to educate themselves.

>>43182

>Eg. "Amin".

>Any mention in Quran?

>Where does it come from? Jews.

>Where did Moses save Jews from? Egypt.

>Who were they worshipping in Egypt? The pharaohs.

>Name a pharaoh? Amen.

The name of a Pharaoh is complete coincidence. Just because something isn't in the Quran doesn't mean that it isn't part of Islam. We also have the hadith.

Narrated Ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ addressed the people on the farewell Hajj and said: "O People! I am leaving among you such a thing that if you strongly adhere to it you will never go astray, the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet."

This is one of many hadith about 'Ameen'

Allah’s Apostle PBUH said, “When the Imam says: ‘Ghair-il-Maghdubi ‘Alaihim Walad-Dallin (i.e. not the path of those who earn Your Anger, nor the path of those who went astray (1:7)), then you must say, ‘Ameen’, for if ones utterance of ‘Ameen’ coincides with that of the angels, then his past sins will be forgiven.”

>Idols are not statues.

One of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Don't try to use the argument that 'the god resides in the idol'. That is a stupid argument that is used by idol worshipers to justify their stupidity. People from all over Arabia brought statues(idols) to the Kaaba during the Prophet's PBUH time. They worshiped them. They worshiped statues. People have done this for thousands of years. How stupid are they? Well, worshiping statues is pretty stupid. That is why it is completely forbidden in an Islamic state. Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism…are all permitted as long as they do not prosthelytize and they pay the jizya.

>>43266

>Rosary and Tasbeeh

The Rosary was given to Saint Dominic in 1214, long after the establishment of Islam.

I can't believe you're quibbling over a word. Do you also avoid Ramen? Refuse to use "a men"s room? You're searching for devils in the dishwater and, frankly, it's kinda childish.

>>43266

Now you are acting like a Quranist. We follow the hadith of the Prophet PBUH, including the 2 hadith that I mentioned. The Quranic verses you brought after them to try and contradict them do not contradict them. There are several verses in the Quran saying to follow the Prophet's PBUH words and example.

>>43271

You shouldn't respond to these bad faith questions. The kafir asking you these questions is probably and atheist/agnostic, and it's funny how these guys are always asking about proof when there is literally zero evidence for what they believe in being true.

>>43268

>>43271

>>43272

If you keep giving examples from "other books" vs Quran, and call someone citing examples from a "Quranist", you have already established your destination.

18:57 Who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord's signs but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and deafness in their ears. If you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided.

>>43273

You are tiresome …

[4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger

Qur'an itself says that it is not the only authority. Do you reject this ayat?

>>43277

The translation you put says the same thing, but it's order is out of whack. Here's a better translation:

4:59 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.

One of the most frequently cited Quranic instructions by the followers of hadith and sunna is "obey God and His Messenger" from verse 4:59. I was hoping you to do it. Thanks for the opportunity.

I will tire you out for the last time. If you respond to this with some level of curiosity, I will come back. If you keep on walking on the path you are on, I wish you the best of luck. You'll need it.

Obeying a messenger while he is a leader or obeying elected or appointed officers do not mean taking their words or commands as "God's commandment" or absolute, infallible, unchangeable, and universal law.

Let's look at the nature of abuse, and how thousands of hadith rabbits are produced from empty hats:

Obeying Bukhari, a narrator of hearsay is not obeying the messenger. Obeying the messenger is obeying the complete, perfect, and fully detailed Quran.

*25:73 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.*

Verse 25:73 describes the attitude of believers towards God's revelations. But the followers of hadith and sunna are very good at ignoring them. Here, you probably disown these because you think you're on the right side…

*6:19 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that along with God are other gods?" Say, "I do not bear witness!" Say, "He is only One god, and I am innocent of your setting up partners!"*

*7:3 Follow what was sent down to you all from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any supporters. Little do you remember!*

*50:45 We are totally aware of what they say, and you are not to be a tyrant over them. So remind with the Quran those who fear My promise.*

The only teaching delivered by God's messenger was the Quran. Sunnis (and Shiites to some degree) do not think that Muhammed practiced the Quran, and the Quran alone. They believe there were other revelations he received, but were not meant to be written down. The idea of such revelations are the basis of many hadith and sunnah hearsays.

*5:48 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.*

*5:49 You should rule among them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins. Indeed, many among the people are corrupt.*

They do not hear Muhammad's only complaint about his people.

*25:30 The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."*

They do not understand that Muhammed disowns those who do not understand that the Quran is enough and fully detailed.

*6:114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.*

*9:1 This is an ultimatum from God and His messenger to those who set up partners with whom you had entered a treaty.*

>>43277

Muslims acknowledge that verses about the ultimatum are entirely from God. God did not consult Muhammad about the ultimatum. Muhammed's only mission was to deliver God's message.

*16:35 Those who set up partners said, "If God had wished it, we would not have served anything besides Him; neither us nor our fathers; nor would we have forbidden anything without Him." Those before them did the exact same thing; so are the messengers required to do anything but deliver with proof?*

*24:54 Say: "Obey God, and obey the messenger." But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.*

Thus, the reason that God included the messenger in 9:1 is not that he was another authority in issuing it, but because he participated as the deliverer of the ultimatum. Similarly, because people receive God's message through messengers, we are ordered to obey the messengers. We also know that the Quran is a permanent messenger.

*65:11 A messenger who recites to you God's signs, which are clear, to lead those who acknowledge and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who acknowledges God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him an excellent reward.*

And the Quran is a reminder and deliverer of good news.

*41:4 A bearer of good news, and a warner. But most of them turn away; they do not hear.*

*11:2 "That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news."*

>>43268

I almost missed this one.

Rosary is the most common name of the tasbih-like tool related to Christianity / Catholicism. I apologize for not being very specific with my example.

Rosary

Prayer rope

Wreath of Christ

Anglican Prayer Beads

You get the idea, it's a common tradition among many peoples and religions.

From Wikipedia:

"The Desert Fathers of the 3rd to 5th centuries, used pebbles or knotted ropes to count prayers, typically the Jesus Prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"). The invention is attributed to Anthony the Great or his associate Pachomius the Great in the 4th century."

I did not say Rosary predates Tasbih, I said "embedded cultures". But Amen and Kippah predates Islamic versions, so I can't blame you. I was careless with my sentence structure. Apparently the first examples of it are from 3rd Century, and the proper invention is from the 4th. So the Christian version predates as well. I learned something today. Have you?

>>43278

>>43279

>>43280

Read the rules. Quranists aren't allowed here. Especially ones that have an agnostic/atheistic streak and say things like "Religions are nothing but socially and politically constructed traditions."

>>43280

Plus the misbaḥah, or tespih is an innovation. It has no predication in the original Islamic society that was created by the Prophet PBUH. It was derived much later, as a way to try and give Muslims their own kind of prayer beads.

>>43284

I read the rules. Did you? I think you don't understand what you read, and that's your most powerful skill.