b86d7c No.25518
if it makes no sense for there to be no god because everything that exists has to be created doesn't that mean god needs to be created? but who created god
if god created himself that means it's not true that something needs to be created by something else to exist. so the world can created itself or it can have always existed
if you were born anywhere else you would have grown up believing their religion. including your own. at the end of the day the reason you believe in your religion is that's the one you were taught. doesn't it seem like a waste of time?
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9ddd61 No.25519
>because everything that exists has to be created
Who says that?
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9ddd61 No.25520
>at the end of the day the reason you believe in your religion is that's the one you were taught.
Except this would include you as well. And people convert all the time so it's not even factually correct to begin with. And if you say "okay not all but most" then you've already invalidated your "argument".
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b86d7c No.25522
>>25520
did you convert or did you grow up with it?
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bb4aea No.25526
>>25522
>if it makes no sense for there to be no god because everything that exists has to be created doesn't that mean god needs to be created? but who created god
God is uncreated. That's one of the amazing things about God.
>if god created himself that means it's not true that something needs to be created by something else to exist. so the world can created itself or it can have always existed
This is flawed because you are taking only half the premise of religion. God is not only uncreated but relates an account of creating the world.
>if you were born anywhere else you would have grown up believing their religion. including your own. at the end of the day the reason you believe in your religion is that's the one you were taught. doesn't it seem like a waste of time?
I'm a revert and so are at least half the people here.
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805bed No.25527
>>25518
>the reason you believe in your religion is that's the one you were taught
I didn't become Muslim until I was 32 years old. Explain that.
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b86d7c No.25529
>>25526
God being uncreated just means that existence without creation is possible which is directly contradictory with the previous premise that the God explains the world being created
My view isn't one sided, the idea is self contradictory
>>25527
mental illness tbqhwyfamalam
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805bed No.25531
>>25529
>mental illness
Not an argument. I could just as easily say that atheism is a mental illness, but that doesn't make it so. If the claim is made that "the reason you believe in your religion is that's the one you were taught", it only takes a single example to disprove that statement.
I present myself as that single example. You've been proven wrong. Try again.
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b86d7c No.25533
>>25531
single example doesn't matter you braiindead idiot
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805bed No.25534
>>25533
Well that didn't take long.
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9ddd61 No.25536
>>25533
>you're only muslim because your parents were!
>"I'm a convert"
>T-that doesn't matter idiot!
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b397ef No.25567
#1. God is omnipotent. He can do whatever he wants and he violates the laws of physics.
#2. To prove this, if there was no God, life would be physically impossible since everything physical needs a beginning.
tl;dr God exists because it's impossible that he wouldn't
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72cbdb No.25579
/fringe/ here. Since OP is b&, can I chat with you guys?
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19894e No.25584
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805bed No.25586
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72cbdb No.25712
>>25584
Sorry for taking so long to reply. So I'm a fan of perrenialists/traditionalists like Guénon and Evola, and Islam is often the go-to religion for such people.Being very /pol/ makes me respect Islam's willingness to actually stand up for the values it believes in. (as opposed to most other religions which just roll over and die over the slightest dispute) Being /fringe/ also makes me interested in the concepts of tassawuf and fayd. (do any branches still believe in fayd/emanationism?)
So for some actual questions. How does an average Muslim respond to esotericism? And do you have any advice and cautions for studying Islam thoroughly before possibly converting? To convert out of ignorance, and then denounce it over a dispute, seems worse than to not convert at all. Also what would you guys say is the benefit of choosing Islam specifically, instead of other faiths such as Hinduism or Christianity; if possible from a perspective suitable to someone who respects all orthodox religions?
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924265 No.25714
>>25712
> (do any branches still believe in fayd/emanationism?)
actually emanationism is a pretty big heresy since Allah is supposed to be extremely transcendent, and he creates by speaking things into existence, ex nihilo. So there will be an intense separation between God and creation, basically an infinite gap that can't be traversed.
you might find this interesting, https://vimeo.com/15786344
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72cbdb No.25716
>>25714
Interesting video. Also while we're on the topic of Allah being transcendent. A common concept in world traditions is that the Absolute does not interact directly with material people because its/his transcendent nature means that any means of communicating with people would degenerate His original form. A lot of other religions use these concept in a way that almost merges monotheism and polytheism; examples of this are Hinduism and Christianity which only believe in a single God, yet believe that things such as Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva or Jehovah-Isa bin Maryam-Holy Spirit are just ways humans perceive God simply because he is so transcendent and incomprehensible. What would be the Muslim response to these religions, bearing in mind that divinity is inherently transcendent of physical principles? And does Islam have any beliefs, concepts, or doctrines which take into account the extreme disconnect between God's understanding of man, and man's understanding of God?
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bb4aea No.25717
>>25714
Some things are created by decree, others are created by God's own hand. We are created by decree by Adam was shaped directly by God. Other things too.
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bb4aea No.25718
>>25716
> A common concept in world traditions is that the Absolute does not interact directly with material people because its/his transcendent nature means that any means of communicating with people would degenerate His original form. A lot of other religions use these concept in a way that almost merges monotheism and polytheism; examples of this are Hinduism and Christianity which only believe in a single God, yet believe that things such as Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva or Jehovah-Isa bin Maryam-Holy Spirit are just ways humans perceive God simply because he is so transcendent and incomprehensible.
Surah azZumar
''1
The revelation of the Scripture is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise.
2
Lo! We have revealed the Scripture unto thee (Muhammad) with truth; so worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).
3
Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): We worship them only that they may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate.'''
>What would be the Muslim response to these religions, bearing in mind that divinity is inherently transcendent of physical principles?
See above.
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d5bdd4 No.25719
>>25716
>>25712
Oh lawd, smiley's come out of hiding.
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72cbdb No.25720
>>25718
>Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): We worship them only that they may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate.'
That's a pretty good response. I guess the best attempt at a retort would be to point out that these aren't necessarily separate people, just degenerated forms of divinity necessary for application into the physical world. How does Islamic philosophy interpret this concept?
>"Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted."
Seems to say that this isn't too foreign for Islam.
>>25719
What makes you say that?
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d5bdd4 No.25721
>>25720
>What makes you say that?
Hmm well …
>>25712
>Being very /pol/
>Being /fringe/ also
Added to trying to leap immediately into esoteric aspects of a religion instead of, you know, first reading Qur'an and the Sunnah.
That's 100% FringeWizard.
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72cbdb No.25756
Do you guys know of any good books/youtube videos on Islam? It would be nice to learn more than superficial amounts about this religion. It seems like Muslims (all religions really) have a lot of trouble with infighting on the internet, and that makes it really hard to approach any websites.
>>25721
Sorry, it's just difficult to beat around the bush instead of asking bigger questions.
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805bed No.25757
>>25756
Read Qur'an. It all starts there. If something in Qur'an is confusing, refer to the Sunnah. If it isn't clarified by the Sunnah, then it either wasn't meant to be understood or it is yet to be understood.
Islam is not an esoteric religion.
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. Quran 3:7
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476864 No.25758
>>25756
/r/islam's wiki covers the basics really well. https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/index. There's also the Yaqeen Institute https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/homepage/ .
As for Youtube, there are some good interviews on the channel Digital Minbar strangely enough there are two channels, one named Minbar and the other Mimbar. I don't know what's going on there.. There's also the iJihad series from the Andalusian Project channel, which go into detail on debunking anti-Islam videos.
You could check out tafsirs (interpretations with commentary). There are a few different ones, and different people consider them more or less valid for different reasons, but they all cover the basics well enough. Ibn Kathir http://www.qtafsir.com/ and Al-Maududi http://www.englishtafsir.com/ seem alright, although both have their detractors.
The hard part about looking up Islamic stuff on the Internet is sifting through the misinformation. For example, the site wikiislam isn't a reputed collection of information that the name implies, but a site dedicated to scraping the barrel for anything they can bash Islam with. There are also groups like the Qadianis (Islam's equivalent to the JWs) who pose as normal muslims to sucker people into their weird beliefs. The best solution is to collect lots of information from good sources, so that misleading ideas will be more obviously out of place.
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29d4cc No.39935
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2620b2 No.39983
>>25518
I wasn't raised on the alhus sunnah understanding of Islam. And I was on the verge of apostast in my teens because if lying hyppcrites like you. So no. I'm not just a muslim because my parents taught me Islam.
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2620b2 No.39984
>>25712
Leave tassafuw for now. Read the main text the Quran and then some book on the aqeedah or doctrine of the Sunni Orthodoxy. Once you've actually begun to believe in them and practice them. Then you turn to tassawuf.
Atleast that's how the sufis would do it. But if you want to be typical /pol/ then you can abandon the crux of Islam and go straight to the insane ramblings part.
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ff3138 No.39989
>>25519
The Principle of Sufficient Reason is a common argument for the existence of God.
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6ba5aa No.40242
>>25518
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_the_Truthful
If you want, you can look for online debates about the Five Ways and proofs of God, but of course, it's more catholic than Islam
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ead614 No.40318
>>25518
God is outside time and space, which is a creation of his. What is outside time and space is an irrelevant question, as it will never be fathomed by human beings.
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