580dcd No.20806 [View All]
الله
Allah, The Unmoved Mover
>And it will not be possible to be and not to be the same thing, except in virtue of an ambiguity, just as if one whom we call ‘man’, others were to call ‘not-man’; but the point in question is not this, whether the same thing can at the same time be and not be a man in name, but whether it can in fact. – Aristotle, Metaphysics
>Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”
>1 Samuel 15:29 “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
>Job 9:32 “For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, that we may go to court together.”
The concept of trinity disagrees with both the scripture of the Hebrews and the logic of the Greeks – the two very things Hellenist Jews wanted so desperately to combine when they contrived Christianity.
The laws of the excluded middle and contradiction do not undermine monotheism, they demand it. They undermine the trinity which is rank paganism. Logic can be seen as negative theology (what God isn’t) while revelation is positive theology (what God is). Monotheism can only be undermined when the imperfect reasoning abilities of men are placed above revelation – which is exactly what the trinity doctrine does.
Divinity can be seen as “irrational” in the sense that the human mind alone cannot be expected to properly quantify it, hence the need for revelation from above. If we accept the premise of unrevealed divinity and its “irrationality” then monotheism is less irrational a priori than polytheism. In this same manner Unitarianism is less irrational than Trinitarianism. Then if we accept the premise of revealed divinity along with the veracity of Abrahamic scripture we find that monotheism is more veracious a posteriori than polytheism; similarly Unitarianism is more veracious than Trinitarianism. Trinity is subrational whereas Tawhid is (supra)rational; Trinity is extra-scriptural whereas Tawhid is scriptural.
God is fully Beyond-Being because God is not limited in anyway like/by/or part of God’s creation. An understanding of God based on observing the createdness of being (God’s creation) would be by necessity induced rationally, however the Trinity is irrational. An understanding of God based on revealed scripture would be deduced from beyond being, yet Trinity theory is not revealed in scripture. While most though not all Christians accept the trinity theory axiomatically as a compelling paradox it is wholly artificial in the sense that neither scripture nor rationality can account for it; it is an equivocation. Catholics claim to be against continual revelation yet they endorse “internal locution” and believe the “holy spirit” has helped them do everything from write their own Bible to carry out the Second Vatican Council. They’ve signed the front and back of a theological blank check.
Trinitarian Christianity holds that the Godhead is the ideal form of and over the “Three Persons” that share the same essence. This theory opens the door for “all potentialities” which is how it is disproved by the Third Man Argument. We can observe the infinite regress of divine powers in the Catholic Church in ways such as Mary being called “The Mother of God”, calling Anne “The Grandmother of God”, the Immaculate Conception not only of Jesus but of Mary along with her perpetual virginity, the neverending litany of new Saints, doctrinal infalibility. Protestants do not deny Jesus is God, nor do they deny that Mary was the mother of Jesus yet they deny she is Mother of God. So Catholics can be said to operate logically from an illogical premise whereas Protestants operate illogically from the same illogical premise.
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122fcd No.35723
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7e0974 No.35725
>>35723
K
Why were my posts deleted then? This is “Christian/Trini general?” I’m not a missionary. I said in another thread (also deleted) that my theology is hybrid Christian/Muslim and another poster called me just a Muslim.
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7e0974 No.35726
>Have faith in God.
>You’re deranged.
Nice. ;)
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04eb2e No.35727
>>35725
Do you forget that we can see post histories? Literally every single thread you touch, you turn into a comparative religious studies thread with a focus on Christianity. You've been warned several times, but you carry on like we can't see what you're doing.
The next time - and I mean the very next time - you even think about posting anything along the lines of comparing Christianity to Islam in a thread outside of this one, I will personally permaban you, every VPN you use, and wipe every post you've ever made off of this board.
Don't test me.
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7e0974 No.35728
>>35727
Doesn’t explain the deletions in this thread. Why were my posts deleted.
You missed a post by the way: >>34974
It would be sad to be banned, I like the intelligent discussion here. I sincerely hope it doesn’t come to that.
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122fcd No.35729
>>35725
>thread where you can make your arguments for christianity / against Islam is available
>do your outmost to ignore it and instead go to every thread pretending to be a follower of every religion under the sun so you can copy paste pre-written missionary sales pitches following not-so-subtle loaded questions
>"wtf why did my posts get deleted"
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7e0974 No.35730
>>35729
The posts outside this thread had nothing to do with the legitimate questioning going on in this thread (parallels between Muslim and Christian eschatologies). I already said I’m not a missionary and have hybrid theology. You don’t hear my words. I don’t care if you are Christian.
By the way, /christian/ has already permabanned me, so I guess that makes me a Jew at the end of the day (I’m not).
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ee6e84 No.35731
>>35730
I’m perma-banned from Trini Animal Farm aka /christian/ too, so what?
Stay in this thread with your syncretic nonsense.
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7e0974 No.35732
>>35731
What is the actual difference between Christian and Muslim end games?
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7e0974 No.35733
It’s the question that overrides all petty quibbles that could be asked in this thread anyway. Let’s get to the point. If Jesus is coming back to lead a new holy world order, how is that different from Christian eschatology.
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7e0974 No.35739
>>35736
>the timescale of the kingdom is shorter.
This is what I was getting at in the post which was deleted. What does it mean. Christian view is that once Heaven is established it lasts forever.
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7e0974 No.35746
>>35743
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Christian view is that Earth will become Eden again. It's all part of Heaven and the world to come. But it's besides the point. In Islamic earthly utopia is there still death and not eternal life?
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7e0974 No.35747
What's the point of a resurrection of the dead if the risen dead are only to die again?
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7e0974 No.35770
>>35768
When is the resurrection chronologically with respect to the reappearance of Jesus then? And what about with respect to the death that you say will occur in Jannah? Are we resurrected after we die in Jannah? If not, what’s the point, if even Heaven is temporary? What is the reward in that?
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7e0974 No.35771
It would be great if someone could just write out a simple timeline.
In Xtianity: Second Coming -> heaven and earth merge/pass away -> Resurrection/Last Judgment/Heaven -> forever
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0a6746 No.35772
>>35770
Work it out for yourself, Christian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology
>What is the reward in that?
As long as you worship the man, Jesus(as), you will never see the reward in anything. Embrace Islam and submit fully to God or eternal hellfire will be your final destination.
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7e0974 No.35779
>>35772
I read it. So the Islamic position seems to be that Jesus reaches Heaven without dying, only for Allah to then kick him out for him to do even more work and so that he can die and be resurrected like everyone else?
>Islamic eschatology is the pillar of Islamic theology concerning the day of judgement. It is characterized by the annihilation of all life
This seems to contradict the account of >>35598
>Allah (swt) takes every believers soul away in a gentle wind
Is this different from eternal life or being transported straight to Heaven? Does it mean that Allah is soothing the believers as they all die? What does death even mean?
(I never said I was a trinitarian. Trinitarianism has to be read-into the Bible. That being said, I fail to see why God would consider an unforgivable sin the co-worship of a holy man as one of his partners, especially if said partner is literally described as being his partner in bringing about an age of peace. As long as the holy man is truly pure, even if it's not ideal, why would his extreme veneration be unforgivable? Not even Jesus says that this kind of blasphemy against God is unforgivable.)
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7e0974 No.35780
The Trinity seems a boring topic, much more interesting is eschatology. From my perspective there is no difference between adhering to someone’s guidance perfectly and worshipping that person as God. Everything Jesus said could have been inspired by God the way scripture is inspired by God, effectively giving him the voice of God, and he wouldn’t technically be God, but if that were true, wouldn’t you hang onto his every word nonetheless? This is the nature of my belief. I would rather not talk about it.
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7e0974 No.35792
>>35782
>earthly kingdom utopia until Jesus dies and every muslim is taken away
>taken away
=comforted in death?
It seems that no matter what, at the very least the Islamic utopia ends in degeneration, destruction, and death? I am not saying these things, you are saying them.
This is why Christian eschatology is less confusing. There is no need for one final annihilation as in Islamic eschatology because the kingdom which Jesus brings IS Heaven. There will be wars before its final culmination (Jesus brings not peace but the sword) but in Christianity, no one technically has to die to get to Heaven. This is the meaning of Jesus’ words, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
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7e0974 No.35797
>>35796
Funny that you raise the issue of entropy because I actually have a degree in theoretical physics and have studied statistical mechanics. The “second law” only says that the world reversing its slide into disorder, ignorance, and chaos is unlikely, not impossible, and in no way inevitable. With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. And in the beginning of the universe was the very lowest possible entropy, so what does that tell you? God is a God of law and order.
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7e0974 No.35801
>>35799
Eschatology is part of every religion and part of the creed of every religion and seems an important way to discern truth… even the Buddha prophesied that the world will end in a fiery inferno where all will be eternally reincarnated except for the select few who find the way out. (Anguttara Nikaya 7.62)
Now, it had previously been my assumption that Jesus and Muhammad were raised alive to Heaven, but I am reading now that they both died natural deaths and in this way were brought to Allah. Given that even the Islamic utopia established by Jesus will end in death, do we say that Jesus is the one person in the history who dies twice?
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2f6131 No.35804
>>35801
>even the buddha….
I am getting close to temp banning your new age butt.
>Jesus dies twice?
4|157|وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا
WA MA QATALUHU WA MA SALABUHU
That's it.
You are taking five days off from spamming our board to study our deen before you indulge in this nonsense.
-vol.
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fe35f3 No.35857
>>35804
Not that poster but I'm wondering what the Buddha's position is in the eyes of Islam? There are prophets that are named, but some that remain unnamed.
He spoke of a transcendant absolute, the source of all things, that your actions have consequences into the afterlife, and that the point of life is to realize this unchanging, transcendent source…somehow. But it remained very impersonal, non-anthropomorphic, with no human-like qualities we can relate to.
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0a6746 No.35861
>>35857
>but some that remain unnamed
Well, since we know the Buddha's name, he's obviously not unnamed. However, since we also don't know who the unnamed ones are, then it is a bad idea to speculate lest we get it wrong. If we decide that the Buddha is a Prophet, what if he's not? We'd be in quite a bit of trouble then.
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71e4cc No.35868
>>35801
>USER WAS TEMPBANNED FOR THIS POST
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7e0974 No.35953
That was a wrongful ban. I wasn't spamming.
>earthly kingdom utopia until every muslim dies -> earth inhabited by degenerates
Let's think about this logically because religion should make sense. Is this not a gruesome scenario? Do the last living believers not die off one by one, clustered in a decreasing number of post-apocalyptic outposts, huddled behind the barricades necessary to protect themselves from endless hoards of unbelievers (who presumably will be dangerous)? Do we envision a literal last living Muslim? How lonely will he be? How terrible will it be for him to know that he is the last real person (kafirs not counted) to see the universe before Allah annihilates it? Is this utopia or a zombie movie?
There is a common sense solution: skip the destruction of the entire cosmos. Let Heaven descend over Earth in the clouds. Resuscitate the dead and raise the believers to Heaven alive. It's not complicated. Allah has done it once before in Jesus and Muhammad – he should be able to do it again. Why does Allah insist on the total annihilation of all life?
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122fcd No.35954
>>35953
>Let's think about this logically because religion should make sense.
Logically there's no reason why every human has to die except a select few that happens to be alive at some point. It makes more sense that either all die or no one die.
>>earthly kingdom utopia until every muslim dies -> earth inhabited by degenerates
who are you quoting?
>skip the destruction of the entire cosmos.
your solution of replacing it makes no practical different, the cosmos as we know will disappear anyway.
And you of all people who believe that even God needed to die should not reasonably have any objections to humans needing to die. God according to you became human just for that reason.
And likewise God according to you have created humans before that did not have the original sin so that need not have been complicated by having a sacrifice whatever.
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b9f664 No.35960
>>35954
>Logically there's no reason why every human has to die except a select few that happens to be alive at some point.
If it’s not fair that some standing here will never have to taste death, how is it fair that some Muslims get to experience the coming Islamic utopia and others don’t?
Life is a varied experience for every soul. If absolute uniformity of experience is your aim, should you not seek a different universe? But the promise in both religions is that God/Allah is just, and that in the end, all will make sense, and we will experience perfect gladness at everything God has done.
Regarding death specifically, it is indeed a blessing to not ever have to taste it. Death is a blight on life, and arguably the scariest thing anyone ever has to do. Everyone who dies must face God completely alone — could there be anything more terrifying? Not even Christians want to die. That’s why this quote is so remarkable:
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
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b9f664 No.35961
>who are you quoting?
>>35782
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122fcd No.35963
>>35960
Who said anything about fairness? We were speaking logically. There's no logical reason why some humans have to not die. That's just up to Allah. And I say that logically it makes more sense that everyone dies or everyone lives.
>If absolute uniformity of experience is your aim
never said that.
>we will experience perfect gladness at everything God has done.
and who has disagreed?
>it is indeed a blessing to not ever have to taste it.
not necessarily
>arguably the scariest thing anyone ever has to do.
not necessarily
>Everyone who dies must face God completely alone — could there be anything more terrifying?
So you're terrified of God? Aren't you the same person who earlier said you as a christian don't fear God?
>Not even Christians want to die.
Muslims have no problem with the decree of Allah. Plus Muslims have good expectations.
As for your interpretation of that quote then I don't think that's what the author had in mind nor the early christians. You interpret it differently to avoid the false prophecy it was.
You also failed to adress the cognitive dissonance I pointed out. You ask in defiance: why do humans need to die? Meanwhile you say God needs to die and He needed to become human so that He could then need to die. What drivel.
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b9f664 No.35965
>>35963
Allow me to rephrase then: If it’s illogical that some standing here will never have to taste death, how is it logical that some Muslims get to experience the coming Islamic utopia and others don’t?
>So you're terrified of God?
Yes I am terrified if God. I fear God even more than I fear the Devil, which is saying a lot, but it’s only logical because the former creates and actively sustains the latter.
If you want to defend the virtues of death, that’s fine by me. But if death is such a small thing, then why was I banned for citing a source that said Isa died the death and that Allah didn’t raise him alive to Heaven? I was banned because it’s blasphemy. It’s blasphemy because death is bad, and it is abundantly clear in what he has done that Allah has a distaste for it. But if he does (have a distaste for death), then why the annihilation of all life before the resurrection?
>You ask in defiance: why do humans need to die?
The question is not “why do humans need to die?” in general. The question is “why do humans need to die when the arm of God is actively intervening so to make all things possible, especially in such a time as the end of days when even the dead will be resuscitated, and especially after he has already shown that at least two humans (Jesus and Muhammad) can enter Heaven without having to die.” That is the question.
To answer your question:
>you say God needs to die and He needed to become human so that He could then need to die
Let it be known to all Muslims reading this: I, unlike every Christian, am 100% opposed to the “death of God” or the “sacrifice of Jesus.” It’s insanity.
That being said, it’s an insanity that is important to understand. So let’s go into it.
If I am to interpret it charitably, the Christian point is not that the sacrifice of God was a good thing per se (even though brain dead Christians literally say this). On the contrary, the point of it is that the sacrifice of God was a BAD thing, but that it DID happen — if not on the cross by Romans and Jews, then in Eden by Adam and Eve. The entire Christian religion is contained in this. The whole of Christianity can rightly be summarized in a single revelation which is the revelation of the fallen state of man, i.e the revelation that Adam eternally sacrificed God by leaving Eden, in a way that none of his ancestors have ever been able to undo. Acknowledge this, be mindful of just what it was that Adam sacrificed (God), and be reconciled to God.
Notice that Jesus has almost nothing to do with Christianity when Christianity is viewed through the lens of the Fall. But if imagining and supposing that God was nailed to a cross in the person of Jesus helps to reveal to Jews named Saul the TRUE GRAVITY of what Adam did — that Adam eternally sacrificed the infinite splendour of God/Eden/Heaven, a splendour which none of Adam’s ancestors have ever been able to recreate, making it the ultimate error — then who am I to care?
I hope this helps.
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122fcd No.35966
>>35965
>If it’s illogical that some standing here will never have to taste death
Who claimed that?
>Yes I am terrified if God. I fear God even more than I fear the Devil
I remember you saying the exact opposite not too long ago.
>it’s blasphemy because death is bad
No isn't.
>Allah has a distaste for it.
where did you get this from?
>But if he does (have a distaste for death), then why the annihilation of all life before the resurrection?
You really need to stop asking questions to strawmen.
>"The question is “why do humans need to die…"
see above
>If I am to interpret it charitably
I don't care about your interpretation because a) you're dishonest about your own beliefs and b) I doubt that interpretation reflects any christian theology anyway given your past admissions.
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b9f664 No.35969
>>35966
We can get bogged down in details all day, negating each other on the smallest points. I’m honestly not interested in Christianity but in Islam. Perhaps this is even the wrong thread but I’ll restate the question anyway: Is there a simple reason for why Jesus and Muhammad were able to be raised to Heaven alive but yet in the end, all have to die and the universe and all life has to be annihilated before Heaven?
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918d8c No.36046
More directly we can simply ask: Considering that Muhammad was raised alive to Heaven and will remain there (unlike Jesus), then how will he be resurrected and judged like every other human (including Jesus)?
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0a6746 No.36048
>>36046
>Muhammad was raised alive to Heaven
Uh, no. He died. You can even visit his tomb.
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7e0974 No.36089
>>36048
Interesting. I was under the impression that Mi'raj was a thing.
But Jesus was still raised to Heaven right? So do we say that Jesus is the only soul currently in Heaven? Or are Muhammad and the rest of the believers waiting there too (Muslim equivalent of “soul sleep”)?
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cb6349 No.36113
>>36046
>Considering that Muhammad was raised alive to Heaven and will remain there (unlike Jesus)
You're confusing things here, it's Jesus (AS) who was raised to heaven alive. Muhammed (PBUH) is dead like everyone else.
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122fcd No.36114
>>36113
First of all, heaven is not paradise. Secondly, Prophets are not "dead like everyone else" but rather alive.
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cb6349 No.36115
>>36114
Where are you getting this from?
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7e0974 No.36122
>>36115
It’s because of statements from Muslims like his that I wrote >>36046. Is there internal confusion in Islam regarding this point or something?
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cb6349 No.36124
>>36122
I don't believe there is no, they might just be misinformed.
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963d69 No.36849
Were either Muhammad or Jesus raised to Heaven prematurely or given in any way special treatment in death by Allah, or not??
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458e7e No.36853
>>36849
Muhammad (saw) tasted death, Jesus (saw) not yet as he was raised up alive but he will after he comes back, defeats the jews and their antichrist messiah, rules the islamic empire, marries, and dies to establish he is human.
Sūrat Al ʿIm'rān (The Family of Imrān) - آل عمران سورة
[3:55] Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Sūrat l-nisāa (The Women) - سورة النسآء
[4:159] There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him (Jesus peace be upon him) before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.
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963d69 No.36943
>>36853
>[4:159]
>There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him (Jesus peace be upon him) before his death
Whoa, not even a single Jewish follower of Jesus? But by the time of his trial had he not amassed a huge following around Jerusalem?
Also, I now understand from [3:55] that Jesus was raised to Allah alive. Is there scripture detailing the mechanism for his coming back? Will he be reincarnated, or will he descend from the heavens?
>>36114
>heaven is not paradise
Can someone explain to me what this Anon was saying? What is the difference? Is it the difference between where Jesus is now, and where all righteous believers will finally end up after the annihilation, resurrection, and judgment? If so then do other people than Jesus get to go there, sort of like a holding area before the final place? And which of these two different places is called “Jannah?”
Thank you
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122fcd No.36948
>>36943
Paradise = Jannah
heaven = sky, universe(including what's beyond our grasp) = samaa'
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458e7e No.36982
>>36943
>not even a single Jewish follower of Jesus
It seems you don't understand the translation, it means that in the future ALL ppl of the book will believe in Jesus (as) before Jesus (as) dies.
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0ccf9d No.38709
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a5787a No.40003
>I believe in one God,
>but then I believe in three.
>I’ll believe in twenty gods
>if they’ll believe in me.
Leonard Bernstein, “Mass”
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53d715 No.42150
Why does arguing with kuffar feel like such a waste of time, especially in regards to refuting slanderous accusations that we're bombarded with? It’s because you’re arguing against someone who doesn’t even consider the veracity of their beliefs to be important. I just had an exchange with a christian(on the board named the same, thread /846628) that provided real time evidence of it, even admitting that there’s nothing wrong or sinful with believing, or propagating as fact, accusations of the most major consequences, without first verifying them.
quick recap: a christian shared and confirmed in his own words a slanderous accusation against fellow christians, namely the national church of Sweden. The accusation was that the national church will no longer refer to God as ”he” or ”lord”. Note the severity and scope of this accusation, as if true it would constitute blasphemy and apostasy of millions of christians. As a Muslim I of course paused at this accusation due to its outrageous nature and decided to verify it.
And not surprisingly, the accusation was false, fake news, and very easily confirmed as such. I called it out, citing evidence, including from the church itself using those labels and dispelling the fake accusations. Now the guy didn’t admit to it being fake news, but even more damning, he defended the choice to believe in such a major accusation without paying any consideration to its veracity, even justifying it religiously, by saying it’s not sinful, and that he himself has no responsibility to make sure it’s factual.
This is how easily christians believe the most major of accusations, leveled against the most deserving(in their eyes) of benefit of the doubt. So what are the chances of them ever considering the veracity of slanderous accusations leveled against non-christians?! I was after days incapable of even getting him to admit that the accusation itself was false, despite the mountain of evidence, but even if I had, it wouldn’t have change anything, since he never admitted that the very believing it in the first place, was wrong.
So anyone who argues with a kafir, you need to keep this in mind: You’re trying to convince them that X is a lie, when these people don’t even see the problem with lies to begin with. You literally need to start with convincing these people that lying is wrong, since their religion never taught them that. But how can you convince someone of this when they’ve gone their entire adult life not realizing it yet? That’s not an easy task as you can imagine.
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d5dcc8 No.42153
>>42150
>Why does arguing with kuffar feel like such a waste of time
Because it is. You don't argue with non-believers. You educate them. If they refuse, then you shake the dust off and move on. You don't try to change their minds or "save" them. That's up to Allah, not you.
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