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Certainly the promise of Allah is true. Let not then this present life deceive you.

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File: 03e8ff1591fd3a1⋯.jpg (42.59 KB, 636x356, 159:89, Untitled-1[1].jpg)

ecf0ef No.18376

2e00dc No.18377

>>18376

I read a book by James Tabor called Paul and Jesus that proves the religion of Paul was something different altogether. Nice read. Not interested enough to read those articles though, I can assume what they will say. Paul is no friend to us.


150e14 No.18380

>>18376

I'm not so sure I agree with the idea of Paul being the "anti-christ". But, then, "anti-christ" is a term that has come to mean "someone I really don't like." Hell, they "proved" President Clinton was the "anti-christ" back in the 90s. It's practically a meme.

For anything else, I'm not really interested in comparative religious studies. There's a board for that (/rel/) and you'd probably get much better conversation on this topic there.


50a5be No.18385

>>18380

Anti christ is anyone that is against christ and his teaching. Basically all christians are anti christ or dajjalun in arabic.


150e14 No.18386

>>18385

Isn't the anti-christ supposed to be some dude who shows up and fights Jesus to usher in the Apocalypse or whatever? I didn't pay much attention growing up.


50a5be No.18388

>>18386

Yeah that's THE antrichrist or dajjal.

Like there is THE satan and there are other satans.


2af0cb No.18393

Hello, fellow monotheists. I started looking the links you appointed and it has many errors that it can't convince any church-going christian in the world. Not even my Grandma.

Maybe it has one or another truth in the articles, but the other errors are so gross that they completely destroy its legitimacy of the article.

May God bless your lives and give you understanding in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Amen.


2a803c No.18394

Friendly reminder that Muslims love scholars when they critique Christianity and turn their back to them when they critique Islam.

Never trust secular academics, and use equal scales my friends


50a5be No.18395

>>18393

>>18394

Pls bring proof my friends.


06581a No.18398

>>18395

>polytheists

>bringing proof

xd


2a803c No.18399

File: 4441a69604d6965⋯.jpg (134.88 KB, 560x325, 112:65, peter-and-paul-hug-icon.jpg)

>>18395

Afew terrible claims in the first link:

-Paul cursed Jesus and His disciples

-Paul claimed he himself was the son of God

-Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus

(There are more then I can count, but these made me actually audibly laugh)

The second link:

-Equating the name Saul with sheol and doing a comically bad job at making 666 refer to Paul.(Also would any of you even accept Revelation? My guess is a huge no)

The third link:

-Another terrible attempt to connect Paul to somewhere in Revelation(Again, would anyone here accept Revelation? Equal scales friendo)

As far as scholars and what not all you have to do is look at the Islamic love for Bart Erhman, who accepts that Christ died on the cross and that the four gospels profess he was divine(although, he will say, in diffrent ways from each other)

Can you accept Christs death on the cross? Can you accept his diety in any fashion?


2a803c No.18400

>>18398

>Christians

>Polytheists

Have you ever read a Christian explination of the trinity outside of some blog post? Any explination worth its salt starts of by laying monotheism as its foundation, which must never be questioned by any development after that point


50a5be No.18401

>>18400

>TRInity

>MONOtheist

lel


50a5be No.18402

Owner can you remove the images with Jesus (PBUH) and Mary (RA) pls?


2a803c No.18403

">TRInity

>MONOtheist"

so I guess that is a no to this question

"Have you ever read a Christian explanation of the trinity outside of some blog post?"


50a5be No.18405

>>18403

Trinity is not logical my friend.


6a2dab No.18406

>>18405

>God has to be subject to human logic

I love this meme.


50a5be No.18407

>>18406

What does man truly possess other than his reason? Would He give us this sense in order to mislead ourselves? No, on the contrary, He gave us this gift so we could use it and discern truth from falsehood.

Take for example any person born isolated from the scriptures and without any knowledge. If this person believes in a single God and does not build idols to worship then he is saved. Because he did all that he could in his limited circumstances. This man would go to hell in your religion.

And also another scenario, let us assume for the sake of argument that sapient aliens exist on the far edge of our galaxy or on another one. Would they then take a human as a God? Would they be subject to our ways of prayer or hygiene? No, this would not make any sense. They would have their own prophets and scriptures. But the God is always one.


6a2dab No.18408

>>18407

>What does man truly possess other than his reason?

Lots of things! But most importantly the nous. All human faculties, including reason, should be grounded in and subject to it.

>Would He give us this sense in order to mislead ourselves?

No, but like all human faculties, it has been corrupted because of the fall.

>This man would go to hell in your religion.

Not necessarily. Invincible ignorance is a thing.

>Would they then take a human as a God?

The question of the implications of sentient alien life on the Incarnation is an interesting one. Maybe God the Son became incarnate in their species too. I don't see this as strictly necessary, though, as we are told in the New Testament that all of creation was redeemed by Jesus Christ.

>They would have their own prophets and scriptures.

Probably.

>But the God is always one.

Agreed.


50a5be No.18409

>>18408

If you think logic is fundamentally flawed then why are you arguing with me lmao? There is no point to this.


6a2dab No.18410

>>18409

I never said reason was useless, just that we shouldn't expect it to be perfect. It should be grounded in and subject to revelation of the prophets/scriptures and experiential knowledge of God via the nous.


50a5be No.18411

>>18410

So only use logic when it suits you and if it contradicts the bible then logic is flawed. Got it.


6a2dab No.18413

>>18411

Yes, because the Bible is the word of God. And don't forget experiential knowledge of God. Reason can tell us things about God (like classical theism, where Christians and Muslims agree on a lot of things) but we cannot know God directly through reason. This comes through noetic experience.

Do you think that everything in the Qur'an is completely consistent with human logic? How do you reconcile the fact that the principle of non-contradiction, a foundational principle in logic, does not even hold at all levels of the physical universe (see quantum superposition)?

Islam, like Christianity, is fundamentally a pre-modern religion, yet you seem to have a curiously modernist conception of it.


2a803c No.18414

>>18411

>Acting like you don't do the same thing with different scriptures


50a5be No.18415

>>18413

>quantum superposition

The models might be wrong, there are several ways to explain that phenomenon. It's not a contradiction.

>reason

>modernist

xD

>>18414

>implying I do


5b9217 No.18416

>>18407

>Because he did all that he could in his limited circumstances. This man would go to hell in your religion.

Yes, because he is nonetheless a sinner. None is righteous, no not one, there is no one who does good, no one who seeks God, no not even one.

>>18411

Is it logical to believe the moon was split and then put back together? Stop using double standards.


50a5be No.18417

>>18416

>Is it logical to believe the moon was split and then put back together?

Yes, if God can do anything then there is nothing that contradicts logic here. It is even possible with advanced enough technology.

Like the birth of Jesus, it does not violate the laws of physics and is completely logical. It is a strange and rare event but that is different from being illogical.


6a2dab No.18418

>>18415

>implying I do

How can you not?

>>reason

>>modernist

>xD

What are you then, a Platonist? Either way you subject things beyond reason to reason, rather than the other way around like classical religion.


5b9217 No.18419

>>18417

>it does not violate the laws of physics and is completely logical.

If a miracle does not violate reason, then it is hardly a miracle.


50a5be No.18420

>>18418

My belief is that reason brings us closer to God and that nothing God does contradicts reason.

>>18419

Then you don't know what reason is. Violating logic would be you saw a square circle. Simply does not compute. No miracle contradicts logic.


5b9217 No.18421

>>18420

Do you think man is cabable within himself to know all things? If not, then human reason cannot comprehend all things. If human reason cannot comprehend all things, then why can't God reveal things that are contrary to reason? I would like to remind you that man is a creature, and therefore his properties are designed by God, not God's properties defined by man.


2a803c No.18422

>>18420

Violating logic would be you saw a pregnant virgin. Simply does not compute. Miracles contradict logic.


50a5be No.18423

>>18421

Reason does not allow you to know all things because that's not it's purpose. You can't know the future with reason for example.

>>18422

As I said, with sufficient enough technology, you can do it.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/14/europe/mice-sperm-reproduction-eggs/


2a803c No.18425

>>18423

>2000 years ago

>sufficient enough technology


5b9217 No.18426

>>18423

>You can't know the future with reason

So if God were to reveal the future, would that not be contrary to reason?

>mice

People aren't mice. A miracle is something that can't happen naturally.


50a5be No.18428

>>18425

NO that's not what I was implying. My point was it's not illogical. God can do anything.

>>18426

>So if God were to reveal the future, would that not be contrary to reason?

No.

>People aren't mice.

We can do it on humans too fam


beb09e No.18429

So, what made /christian/ come here to proselytize?

I'm not going to stifle the discussion, but I do ask that it's kept to one thread.


2a803c No.18430

>>18429

It was linked in /christian/ and the topic is an inflammatory one because its an often repeated, baseless conspiracy theory


5b9217 No.18431

>>18428

>No.

My reason tells me i cannot know the future. Therefore, God can't reveal the future

>We can do it on humans too

Prove it


6a2dab No.18432

>My belief is that reason brings us closer to God

Properly applied, it can help; improperly applied, it can stifle that relationship.

>nothing God does contradicts reason

Why? So many other things about us (emotions, senses, etc.) often betray reality. Why is reason the only thing that's infallible? Is logic a creation of God or is it fundamental to His nature? Is He subject to logic or does He subject Himself to it?

>>18429

Someone linked this thread to start a discussion on the Apostolic authority of Saint Paul and why/how people attack it.


50a5be No.18434

>>18431

>My reason tells me i cannot know the future.

By yourself, yes.

>Therefore, God can't reveal the future

He can reveal what He wishes.

>Prove it

You know why we use mice in labs? Because they are a cheap representation of the human body.


beb09e No.18435

>>18430

>>18432

I see. Well, so long as things remain civil, it's fine.

Also, we don't allow pics of the prophets. Just FYI


50a5be No.18436

>>18432

Reason is our grounding point, you could say it's the foundation of a healthy human mind.


6a2dab No.18437

>>18435

Understood.

>>18436

>you could say it's the foundation of a healthy human mind.

Agreed, but we are much more than a mind.


5b9217 No.18438

>>18436

>Reason is our grounding point

Then it overrules scripture.

>>18434

>By yourself, yes.

Sorry, that's not rational, my reason can't bring me to think a God exists so God must not exist. See how this logic fails?


2a803c No.18439

>>18429

If you are getting rid of the pictures of people who God has given revelation then you have missed one >>18399 and the video >>18376


50a5be No.18440

>>18437

Yeah but that's why our emotions deceive us sometimes.

>>18438

>Then it overrules scripture.

No, it complements it.

But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance? - 2:170

>>18438

>Sorry, that's not rational

what? I said it is unreasonable to believe you can know the future by yourself alone. You say you can?

>my reason can't bring me to think a God exists so God must not exist

then you are a secret atheist lmao


beb09e No.18441

>>18439

I'm referring to prophets as named in Qur'an.


5b9217 No.18443

>>18440

>Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing

They said that because of Galatians 1:8

>then you are a secret atheist lmao

My point is your epistemology is atheist


50a5be No.18444

>>18443

>My point is your epistemology is atheist

Why?


5b9217 No.18445

>>18444

>Why?

Because if applied consistently it leads to atheism


50a5be No.18446


5b9217 No.18447

>>18446

Prove using reason alone that there is a God, that this God is personal, that this God has revealed anything, and that what this God has revealed is the Qur'an.

You can't.


50a5be No.18448

File: 8bad03f997a28c6⋯.jpg (40.14 KB, 850x400, 17:8, brainlets btfo.jpg)


5b9217 No.18449

>>18448

>that this God has revealed anything, and that what this God has revealed is the Qur'an.


50a5be No.18450


5b9217 No.18451

>>18450

This argument gives evidence that there is a personal absolute God. It says nothing about this God giving any special revelation.


50a5be No.18452

>>18451

A personal God would send revelation as guidance no?


5b9217 No.18453

>>18452

Not necessarily. What is there about a personal God that necessitates God sending revelation? At best you have proven Deism, but you have not proven Theism.


50a5be No.18454

>>18453

Well at this point it's just opinion.


5b9217 No.18455

>>18454

>Well at this point it's just opinion.

Exactly. Your epistemology isn't a theist one.


50a5be No.18456

>>18455

False.


5b9217 No.18457

>>18456

Well, we've established it can't establish a revelatory God…


50a5be No.18459

>>18457

No you just assumed that.


bb2705 No.18460

Has this just turned into a "NO U" discussion where you guys are just trying to get the last word? :P


50a5be No.18461

>>18460

stfu if you won't contribute


bb2705 No.18462

>>18461

Now I don't want to contribute. Good job.


50a5be No.18463

File: 4ec98fe0f739d52⋯.png (87.65 KB, 1437x909, 479:303, 1476984772341.png)

>>18462

Sorry fam.


cc81cf No.18472

File: 531560ec8b23ad8⋯.jpg (10.75 KB, 236x236, 1:1, 2ad62573cf8377c6161597f2b1….jpg)

>>18463

>that pic

heh funny meme, glad some of you have a sense of humor


50a5be No.18475

>>18472

>t. degenerate polytheist


071d4f No.18484

>>18401

>tri-UNITY

>MONOthesim

>mohammed prophet

>no prophecy's


52c34b No.18485

>>18401

You say that there is one God, we say the same. But if you acknowledge only the Father (Mind) what of his thought (Logos/Son) and action (Spirit)? If the Father is divine then His thought and action must also be Divine.

> And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

You are a mutilator of God.


50a5be No.18486

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>18484

>no prophecy's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCMgwwDkFxE

>>18485

God is not limited to be split in 3 (mind, thought and action).

And it's funny how your polytheistic concept of the trinity (borrowed from the romans) was not even widely accepted among all christians and was a product of politics. vid related


52c34b No.18489

>>18486

>God is not limited to be split in 3 (mind, thought and action).

He is not limited because the Mind, Logos and Spirit are all fully Divine, they all have the fullness of the Divine Essence. There are not three Absolutes but One Absolute in Three Persons. You limit God to One Person based on human logic which is the greater error, for if God is One Person then He must either be the eternal egoist (not a loving God) or, more realistically, not a Person at all but merely a faceless and impersonal Essence as Meister Eckhart and the Indians would have it.

But we know that although God is absolutely simple in Essence, His Energies are multiple for He interacts with all things in the created world and in the "faces" of created things we can come to know God (Ibn 'Arabi). Therefore it is a property of each of His Energies to be fully simple and Divine and there is no problem in the reconciliation of simplicity and multiplicity in God.

If God were absolutely simple in the way you mean it there could be no reciprocity between God and creatures because nothing we did could change Him in any way but because there is reciprocity we make a distinction between Essence and Energies.


50a5be No.18493

>>18489

>If God were absolutely simple in the way you mean it there could be no reciprocity between God and creatures because nothing we did could change Him in any way but because there is reciprocity we make a distinction between Essence and Energies.

This is absolute babble and means nothing.


52c34b No.18494

>>18493

>This is absolute babble and means nothing.

What your so-called "Prophet" says is babble and means nothing yet you honour him. Which of the prophets bore witness to him?

>When we ask again: ‘How is it that when he enjoined us in this book of yours not to do anything or receive anything without witnesses, you did not ask him: “First do you show us by witnesses that you are a prophet and that you have come from God, and show us just what Scriptures there are that testify about you”’—they are ashamed and remain silent.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

All of the Scriptures speak of Christ (that is, the Messiah in the Greek tongue) yet none speak of Muhammad. Why should we listen to him?


52c34b No.18495

>>18493

The definitions of key terms as derived from classical dogmatic/conciliar orthodoxy:

(1) Persons- or Hypostases (also subjects). answering the question “Who is doing it?”

(2) Energies answering the question What is it that that They are doing?”

(3) Essence or Nature or ousia, answering the question what are the they, that are doing these things.


64f8bb No.18496

>>18494

None of your scriptures speak of Isaiah, yet you listen to him, yes?


50a5be No.18500

>>18494

>Which of the prophets bore witness to him?

Jesus :^)

>And when Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O children of Israel! Behold, I am an apostle of God unto you, [sent] to confirm the truth of whatever there still remains of the Torah, and to give [you] the glad tiding of an apostle who shall come after me, whose name shall be AHMAD."

>But when he came unto them with all evidence of the truth, they said: "This is spellbinding eloquence!"- 61:6

>>18495

Why only three persons? Why not 4, 5 or 50?


52c34b No.18501

>>18496

Yes, though his book places him in the context of the history of the Old Covenant. However, he did not make such bold claims as Muhammad did (that he is the last prophet), nor did he misrepresent the Scriptures from lack of knowledge as Muhammad did, nor was he the Messiah although he spoke of Him. Jesus Christ brought about the New Covenant that fulfilled the Old and He offered a perfect sacrifice for the remission of sins. Does Islam offer this? How does it fulfill the Old Covenant under which there was no salvation?

>>18500

>Jesus :^)

Yet his followers did not record it. The 12 did not teach this, neither did the Seventy or St Paul. He Himself rose from the dead and appeared to His disciples. Why should I believe Muhammad and not the many others who performed miracles in the name of Jesus Christ?

>Why only three persons? Why not 4, 5 or 50?

That is who God is. Why do you say He is only one person? Even the pagan Greeks and Chinese understood 3 to be the most noble number. It is the same as 1 for both overcome the dualism of 2. The theology of arithmetic is not a special interest of mine but I think that the Trinity of Christianity is the Truth and that the triads of Neoplatonism and Taoism are poor shadows of that Truth.


64f8bb No.18502

>>18501

Strange, though, that Jesus said that another would come. Could Muhammad not be that one?


52c34b No.18504

>>18502

Do you mean the "Helper"?

>If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

(John 14:15-18 ESV)

The Helper is a Spirit, not a man. Or do you mean as in Matthew 24:24 when Jesus says:

>For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The disciple whom He loved teaches us:

>And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

(John 1:14)

>Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

(1 John:4:1-3)

Was it not a spirit that spoke to Muhammad, telling him what to say? Did not this spirit deny that the Christ was God become man? Clearly, the spirit was of the Antichrist and was not a servant of God.


50a5be No.18505

>>18501

>That is who God is.

Based on your bible? That is circular reasoning my friend.

>Why do you say He is only one person?

Because there is only one God and he shares no partners. That is what Abraham, Moses and Jesus said. Even your own scholars, after more than one hundred years, could not agree on what the trinity is. That is why there are many schisms. It is not in the bible, you would think something as vital for salvation would be said in explicit detail by Jesus. This whole fabrication was created in the council of nicea, and these polytheists killed the true followers of Jesus, the monotheists.


52c34b No.18508

>>18505

>Based on your bible? That is circular reasoning my friend.

No more than saying He is only One because that is what is written in the Quran.

>Because there is only one God and he shares no partners. That is what Abraham, Moses and Jesus said. Even your own scholars, after more than one hundred years, could not agree on what the trinity is. That is why there are many schisms. It is not in the bible, you would think something as vital for salvation would be said in explicit detail by Jesus. This whole fabrication was created in the council of nicea, and these polytheists killed the true followers of Jesus, the monotheists.

Our scholars are in agreement with Jesus when he said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." I AM is the name of God from Exodus 3:14. This means that Jesus called Himself God. We are also in agreement with Abraham when he bowed to the three angels, a theophany of the Trinity. We are in agreement with Moses who teaches in Genesis that God created by His Word ("God said…") and by His Spirit ("And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.") You call the Arians the true followers of Christ but they accepted the Scriptures which you deny - do you accept the Scriptures that record the works and sayings of Christ or not? If you do you must accept that He called Himself God, if not you cannot call the Arians the true followers of Christ. Yet this calls into question Muhammad for:

>he [Muhammad] was believed because a certain Arain, who pretended to be a monk, testified falsely in his support for love of gain. (Constantine Porphyrogentinitus, De Administrando Imperio, 14, trans. R.J.H. Jenkins, brackets mine)

>This man [Muhammad], after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. (St. John of Damascus, On Heresies, 101, trans. Frederic H. Chase, Jr., brackets mine)

You err not knowing the Scriptures. History also shows the truth of the Christian Way. If Nicea was the source of the Christian faith and those before it were monotheists what of St Ignatius of Antioch, St Justin Martyr, St Irenaeus of Lyon and all of Christ's disciples. Against them we have only Muhammad's witness of himself, yet he did not know Jesus Christ but only an Arian monk.


52c34b No.18509

>>18505

We also say there is only One God but we do not limit Him to One Person when He has told us otherwise in plain words.


50a5be No.18511

>>18508

Yeah but this is all interpretation.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

This is pretty clear. Why did he not say your lord is triune?

>>18509

>limit Him

Haha, how is saying that He is unique and all powerful limiting? If anything you are limiting him by saying he was a human being that was killed. This is really funny, you claim to be monotheist but we are debating the very foundation of being a monotheist. Christians are so deluded you can't make this up fam.


52c34b No.18512

>>18511

>Why did he not say your lord is triune?

Why doesn't God just whisk us up to heaven straight away? Why didn't He give the Ten Commandments to Adam. Things have their proper time and place.

>Haha, how is saying that He is unique and all powerful limiting? If anything you are limiting him by saying he was a human being that was killed. This is really funny, you claim to be monotheist but we are debating the very foundation of being a monotheist. Christians are so deluded you can't make this up fam.

Well if equate Islamic doctrine and the definition of monotheist there is no way for me to convince you, is there? How is it limiting to say that He became human and was killed if that is what He willed to do? You are limiting Him by saying he could not do such a thing just as you limit God by saying that He cannot be more than One Person. Did I deny that He is unique and all powerful? Where?

In fact, in doing so you fail to understand even the human person who only exists in a community. We are made in His image. You have to choose, is He Good and Love or not? If He is, who did He love in eternity before creation? If not, you serve an egoistic false God for we all know that the source of sin and evil is pride (the ego) and desire (passions which feed the ego) but their opposites are humility (death of the ego) and love (the virtues which help others).


52c34b No.18513

>>18511

btw Christ's words that I quoted are not "explanation". He explicitly says that he is God and you are trying to escape any question I ask you so that it is not revealed that Muhammad learnt Scripture second hand from an Arian heretic.


50a5be No.18514

>>18512

The trinity is like the shahada for us muslims, its the core of our belief. Without it you are not saved right? If it is essential and vital to being saved from the hell fire, why did he not specify it explicitly in the bible and make sure everyone knew the basics about God.

>Well if equate Islamic doctrine and the definition of monotheist there is no way for me to convince you, is there?

Nope, you will never convince me to abandon Allah and worship his creation. It is not fitting for him to kill himself or become a 3d time limited being made of dirt.

Why would he take shape of one of his newest creations? You are limiting Him by saying that only our universe exist, only our plane of existence is true. What if he creates a new realm, different from everything we know about this realm (angels, books, prophets). Would he then take form of a man?

There can only be one God because only only He is self sufficient, because only He is truly singular, everything else is a creation of multitudes, we are made of billions of cells, atoms have electrons and protons. There is nothing like Him. By definition, the all powerful can only be one, there cannot be 2 or more all powerful forces.


50a5be No.18515

>>18513

>He explicitly says that he is God

False, you can figure it out implicitly but it is not clearly written that Jesus is God. And I find that odd if not disturbing.


52c34b No.18516

>>18514

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/nicene_creed_scripture_basis.htm

>>18515

>False

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

Its not implicitly understood. I AM was not capitalized by me for emphasis, its capitalized in Scripture to indicate that Jesus said the Hebrew name for God from Exodus 3:14 which means I AM. The Jews around him immediately tried to stone Jesus after He said this because they knew what it meant. As usual, Muslims not knowing the Scriptures do not understand this despite claiming to be of the spiritual lineage of the prophets.

Sad!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

>>18514

>Why did He not specify

Every member of the Trinity is in the Bible and in Christian liturgical practice the word "Trinity" is used. The apostles established both. Nicene creed from the words of the Bible: http://www.prayerfoundation.org/nicene_creed_scripture_basis.htm

Now would be a good time to decide whether Muhammad was from the lineage of an Arian "true follower" (lol) of Christ or whether he was just deceived by a spirit apart from any teaching.

>Nope, you will never convince me to abandon Allah and worship his creation.

You do not worship God now.

>It is not fitting for him to kill himself or become a 3d time limited being made of dirt.

I'm not the one telling God what is fitting for Him to do and you say that I am the one who limits and belittles God!! This is beyond belief!

>Why would he take shape of one of his newest creations?

God became man so that man could become a god. That which is not assumed by God cannot be saved, therefore He became fully man while remaining fully God so that we could be saved.

Psalm 82: 6-7

I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.”

How can human beings be gods? It is because we are in His image, yet we fell and inherited death. We could not save ourselves so He came to save us out of His great love which is infinite.

>What if he creates a new realm, different from everything we know about this realm (angels, books, prophets). Would he then take form of a man?

Why should He? Such a realm would have different rules. I do not say that such a place does not exist - it is up to God and His will.

>By definition, the all powerful can only be one, there cannot be 2 or more all powerful forces.

Yes, One all powerful Essence possessed by Three Persons


50a5be No.18517

File: 08b5098bf85aa22⋯.jpg (34.23 KB, 600x532, 150:133, haram.jpg)

>>18516

>That which is not assumed by God cannot be saved

Why not? Can't He just forgive all sins. He is the most merciful after all.

>He became fully man while remaining fully God

How does that work?

>there cannot be 2 or more all powerful forces

>Yes

I'm done. Don't bother replying.


52c34b No.18518

>>18517

I'll reply anyway for the benefit of others who may be interested in the truth, rather than in justifying their position.

>Why not? Can't He just forgive all sins. He is the most merciful after all.

A human being must be saved of their own free will but they cannot get to God by their will alone but only in synergy with the will of God. God bridged the gap by becoming man so that an archetype existed for man to follow. He is the ladder seen in Jacob's vision in Genesis. He always forgives our sins but we sin again because our nature changed after the fall of Adam and Eve - we inherited death which is an existential death as well as a literal death. By partaking of Christ's flesh and blood in the Eucharist our nature is restored and we can be restored to our original nature.

>How does that work?

He was 100% man and 100% God. Much like a man is 100% man and can become a god by God's grace, except that Christ was that way by nature.


f44021 No.18524

>>18517

>FullyMan and FullyGod ; How does that work?

Think of super-imposition, every quantic entity can be described as both particle and wave. No analogy will be true though, since God is "the Unique One" there is nothing like Him.

>Can't He just forgive all sins. He is the most merciful after all.

His mercy is his justice and his justice is his mercy, there is no competition between the two, this is very important to understand. It's not as if he chooses to be "Just" in some situations while "Merciful" in others. His judgment is always perfectly "just & merciful" thus his "Judgement" requires capitulation/sacrifice/renouncement [via justice] and no human can satisfy that requirement on their own, not without depending on the Son. No matter how 'good' you are or how much you repent, you can never be good enough when facing the Lord of all Worlds.

That's what a Christian might say.


ecf0ef No.18852

>>18516

>"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

1- The text of John 8:58:

Throughout the Bible, Jesus Christ is recorded to have made many claims regarding how GOD Almighty is Higher and Greater than him. These statements should be clear enough to demonstrate and prove that Jesus Christ, the Messiah (anointed, chosen to be the lord/leader/master of the Jews, their final Prophet), is no more than a creation of GOD Almighty. However, Christians often bring few verses that supposedly prove otherwise; that Jesus is GOD Almighty Himself. Such verses are: John 1, John 8:58, Colossians 1:15-16 and perhaps few others. This article will analyze John 8:58 in great details to find out whether or not their claims are true.

Here is how John 8 reads:

(Pay attention to the red emphasis below)

John 8

1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group

4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.

5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.

7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.

10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.

15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.

18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21 Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22 This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

25 "Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied.

26 "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.


ecf0ef No.18853

>>18852

>>18515

The Children of Abraham

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."

39 "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did.

40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

41 You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?

47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

The Claims of Jesus About Himself

48 The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"

49 "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.

51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52 At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.

53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am (I have seen Abraham before he was even born)!"


ecf0ef No.18854

>>18853>>18508

Jesus here was abruptly interrupted by the Jews who got fed up from him. See the next verse below. They thought that he was insulting their intelligence and their cherished faith by talking blasphemous garbage (such as Abraham rejoiced for him (John 8:56) and other things). It is clear that Jesus was most likely interrupted and wasn't heard finishing up his sentence. Also, the context of Jesus' words were about seeing Abraham before he was even born. This is nothing new in the Bible. In the Old Testament, we read:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)"

Since Jesus was created from the Word of GOD Almighty, and since also our human-spirits are also created from the Holy Spirit, and since Jesus was a Word from the Word of Allah Almighty, then it is quite possible for him to have known, or seen the records of the future human-creations that were going to be created on earth, such as Abraham and others. After all, Allah Almighty uses Angels, Spirits and other created Beings of His to create creations under His Command. Things in the spiritual realm are different. Existence in the spiritual world, including our spirits, is Eternal. Our earthly bodies are not Eternal. So, Jesus having a prior knowledge about Abraham's spirit is nothing unusual in the spiritual world.

Abraham here was used by Jesus because the Jews used him as their highest and greatest Prophet against Jesus. So it wasn't Jesus who brought up Abraham. It was the Jews. Otherwise, Jesus would not have mentioned Abraham or any earthly creation. See verse 33 above.

Also, Jesus is the foretold Messiah, the anointed/selected final and greatest Prophet for the Jews, who will come and establish peace on earth and rule the earth in the end. The Old Testament makes it clear that the Messiah will inherit and rule the earth [1] [2]. See the sub-section below for more details.

However, we must always never forget that the text of the Bible is neither genuine nor original. The Bible's books and gospels, according to its own translators and theologians [2] [3], were

Written by mysterious men.

Written by an unknown number of men.

Written in unknown places.

Written in unknown dates.

Furthermore, if Jesus declared to be the Yahweh Almighty (I am What I am) in Exodus 3, then he would not have hid himself and slipped away! Use your heads, O Christians, and think about this:


ecf0ef No.18855

>>18854

Furthermore, if Jesus declared to be the Yahweh Almighty (I am What I am) in Exodus 3, then he would not have hid himself and slipped away! Use your heads, O Christians, and think about this:

1- Examine what Yahweh Almighty did when He Declared Himself to be "I am What I am". What did He do? He Revealed His Majesty, Glory and Power! I could only imagine Moses could hardly stand on his feet from the overwhelming fear that he experienced!

2- Jesus, when he supposedly declared The Ultimate and Final Statement about himself being the "I am", what did he do? He hid himself and ran away from the beating. This is what he did after he willingly decided to declare his Ultimate and Final Statement about his being and supposed deity. Do you still fail to see the overwhelming inconsistency here?

3- Jesus' supposed statement, "I am", was documented on paper in Greek. Yahweh Almighty's Statement in Exodus 3 was in Hebrew. The two languages are not only far too different from each others, but the two statements are also not the same.

"I am" is not the same as "I am What I am".

Ample more indisputable proofs and points on this are presented below. Also, the Greek main-section below has tons of indisputable proofs as well.

59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

There are few important notes to mention here:

1- In verse 29, Jesus says that he only does what pleases GOD Almighty.

2- In verses 33, 39, 53 and 57, the Jews declare that they are the descendants of Abraham.

3- In verse 37, Jesus confirms that they are Abraham's descendants.

4- In verse 57, the Jews say that Jesus never saw Abraham.

5- (Ample proofs from the Greek language, below, are provided for this one) In verse 58, Jesus DID NOT SAY "I AM". He rather said, "I HAVE (seen Abraham before he was even born)". The following analysis give further proofs for this:

The context of Jesus' statement is clearly about whether or not he saw Abraham.

When GOD Almighty revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3, and told him "I am what I am", He, the Almighty, revealed with it His Majesty and Glory. Jesus, when said "I have", he ran from the rocks that were hurled at him from the angry crowd.

GOD Almighty in Exodus 3 Spoke to Moses in Hebrew, while Jesus in John 8:58, spoke it in Aramaic, and the original Aramaic is lost. All what he have today is a Greek translation for the original.

The "I AM" in John 8:58 is a desperate mistranslation, because even if we take it to be right, it still doesn't say "I am what I am".

If Jesus truly wanted to say "I AM" in reference to Exodus 3, then he should've said before Adam or humanity I AM WHAT I AM; not Abraham.

6- It is also highly probable that Jesus was interrupted by the Jews picking up rocks and hurling them at him, hence, he was only recorded to have said "I HAVE" because he wasn't able to finish his sentence.

This point, while it may sound very lame and weak, but in reality is quite possible and sound!

(a)- Jesus was the foretold Messiah and the greatest and final Jewish Prophet:

Jesus Christ was the foretold Messiah (anointed, chosen, selected). He was the final and greatest Prophet to the Jews. That is why he is the Messiah. A Messiah is a selected King. This means all of the Jews' kings were Messiahs. The Messiah is also the king who will establish the final peace on earth. He is also the Messiah because he will inherit the earth after he defeats the anti-Christ. These points are covered with Biblical references and analysis at:

Jesus is only the heir of GOD Almighty on planet earth; not on the entire Universe.


ecf0ef No.18856

>>18855

>>18515

Does the word "Messiah" really mean GOD? or does it even have anything to do with GOD's Deity?

So most certainly, Jesus being the heir of GOD Almighty doesn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, nor the son of GOD Almighty. Jesus will only inherit the earth. It is a symbolic speech that means that he will rule over earth. The earth will still be under the full authority of GOD Almighty. "Son of GOD" in the original Hebrew means servant of GOD. This is proven in the following articles:

"Son of God" literally means "Servant of God" in Hebrew. Bible agrees with Islam, not with pagan trinity and today's wrong and twisted translations of "Son of God".

The Bible directly claims that ANY "Son of GOD" is a "God"! (Refutation to Jesus' being God meaning that he is GOD Almighty).

"Son of GOD" conflict between the Bible and the Noble Quran.

The definition of "Son of God" in Islam.

Son of GOD: Some Muslims' Misconception.

"Son of Man" does not mean "GOD" or "Son of GOD".

Can we trust the Son of Man?

Does calling Jesus "Son of God" prove that he is GOD?

Rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's "The Incomprehensible Nature of God and his Son" article. Thoroughly refuting and exposing Sam Shamoun's trinity-lies and absurdities in Proverbs 30:4 where he tried to falsely prove trinity through it.




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