/islam/ - 8ch Masjid

>they will either be killed or forced to live under very abusive laws set by Muslims.

>very abusive laws set by Muslims

>abusive laws

>set by Muslims

To your other question I believe(I do not know the exact answer just some speculations) that it's because most humans love their desires more than God and would not think otherwise without the sword. On another note they weren't forced to convert yet a lot of them did because they were intelligent and understood it and later on became scholars. they wouldn't get so invested in islam an become scholars if they were just forced to.look to today's world and you'd see that there a lot of converts in lands where muslims never set foot.

Nice pic btw.

>>17566

>Islam has a consistent history of creating converts "by the sword."

No it doesn't. The Arabian peninsula was brought together by warfare, but that's pretty much where it ended. Virtually all Islamic nations were converted through merchants introducing Islam to them or by other cultural means.

>very abusive laws

What, the tiny tax set on non-Muslims in Muslim lands? The tax on Muslims is far higher in Muslim lands.

>why is the sword needed to win converts

It isn't.

>and simply choose to convert?

If a person doesn't convert by choice, then they have no converted. It is against Qur'an to force anyone to convert. We're not even allowed to force our children or spouses to convert.

For example, if a man who is married and has children converts to Islam, he cannot force his family to convert as well.

>>17567

>>17568

interesting, thank you!

>>17568

do you consider ISIS to be islamic or nah?

>>17570

>do you consider ISIS to be islamic

No, I do not. One can't constantly break the Islamic rules of war and still be considered Islamic.

It would be like someone claiming to be Christian who doesn't believe in the resurrection.

>>17570

I'd say look for very old islamic states if you want more info about the conversion to Islam. There is a lot of controversial around ISIS and all and we might not be very objective towards the subject.

Also one side note before every battle the Muslims would send a messenger to talk to the other nation leaders.

>>17571

ok thanks for your answers anon!

>>17572

ill do some research thank you

>>17568

Can you tell me where the Quran or Hadith says this? I did not know about this rule in Islam until now. But that is very interesting and reassuring so I would really like to know more about the whole "Islamic Conversions can't be forced" thing. Could someone give me a link?

>>17618

https://quran.com/2/256

>>17619

>inb4 "m-muh abrogation"

>>17568

What about Spain? That was certainly not a peaceful exchange of ideas. The fall of Constantinople? The Mughal empire? I doubt the spread of Islam across North Africa was particularly peaceful either.

>What, the tiny tax set on non-Muslims in Muslim lands?

Are you implying that jizya was the only tax non-Muslims were forced to pay in Muslim lands? I find That really unlikely; whenever I hear jizya described it is as an extra tax on top of anything else they might have to pay.

It's more than just a little tax, depending on what the Muslims wanted to charge; it wasn't uncommon among some Muslim nations to enslave anyone who would not pay jizya.

Charging jizya already adds a compulsion to religion, which Islam is meant to be against.

>It isn't.

History says otherwise.

>If a person doesn't convert by choice, then they have no converted. It is against Qur'an to force anyone to convert. We're not even allowed to force our children or spouses to convert.

I'd say that charging people an extra tax for not following your religion is trying to compulsory them to convert, wouldn't you?

>>17641

There have been times of war, but that doesn't mean Islam is spread by the sword.

>It's more than just a little tax

No it isn't.

>enslave anyone who would not pay jizya

The United States, a predominately Christian nation, puts you in jail for not paying taxes. Does that mean Christianity inherently imprisons people for not paying tax?

>trying to compulsory them to convert, wouldn't you?

No, because if they were to convert, the tax would be higher. Everyone pays their share in any society to keep that society running. In Muslim nations, tax is paid. Jizya is much smaller than Zakah - which non-Muslims are not obligated to pay.

>>17643

Potentially being enslaved for not paying it makes it more than a little tax. Not to mention I found sources claiming jizya was even more than the taxes Muslims had to pay.

The United States is not a Christian nation; it is a secular nation, it never claims to be acting for all Christians. Christianity does not outline any taxes that non-believers have to pay. Any taxes that the United States make citizens pay is related to secular government reasons; it is not religiously based in any way. Furthermore, don't you find it odd that a religion is mandating that people pay taxes to it, doesn't that sound more like a political ideology than a religion?

That's intellectually dishonest; Zakat is an already set amount, but jizya varies depending on what the Muslims deem appropriate, there is no set maximum for jizya meaning they could take as much as they like. Furthermore Muslims whose wealth do not reach nisab don't even have to pay zakat. It wouldn't even make sense to allow kafirs a lower tax rate; that incentivises them to remain kafirs an not convert.

Not to mention that the main reason for the jizya is to humiliate kafirs; to put them into submission and subdue them.

>>17647

government and religion are not two separate things in islam.

>>17647

>Islam says you need to give a portion of your income to the poor and is therefore a political ideology

Religion is usually tied with politics. Anything that gives social teachings kind of is. It doesn't make it any less of a religion.

>>17647

I'm thinking that you need to educate yourself a little bit when it comes to jizya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Start there.

Further more, your constant bitching about it isn't going to change it. If you don't like the idea of jizya, then don't move to a Muslim nation and you'll never have to pay it.

>the main reason for the jizya is to humiliate kafirs

That is absolutely incorrect. Paying jizya does a great many things - such as exempting non-Muslims from military service as well as exempting them from fasting during Ramadan. How is it humiliation or putting them into submission?

Do you think non-Muslims living in Muslim countries should be forced to participate in Ramadan? Perhaps you think non-Muslims living in Muslim lands and benefiting from various services such as roads and running water shouldn't have to pay any tax at all?

I don't know where you got this idea of jizya, but I'm guessing either /pol/ or something with the word "watch" in the url.

>>17648

>>17649

>Islam says you need to give a portion of your income to the poor and is therefore a political ideology

It's more than just donating to charity; it's literally protection money that kafirs are paying to the Muslim ruler.

>Religion is usually tied with politics. Anything that gives social teachings kind of is. It doesn't make it any less of a religion.

Well then, to be perfectly honest, it sounds like you're admitting Islam is incompatible with Western culture. If Islam is a political system then it's going to clash with democracy and we can't accept that.

>>17650

I rejected the idea that's it just some little tax that nobody has to worry about. I've sent you two messages but apparently that fonts as constant bitching, are you really that unused to criticism, mate?

>If you don't like the idea of jizya, then don't move to a Muslim nation and you'll never have to pay it.

That'd be fine and dandy, if we didn't have Muslims coming here who want to subvert our cultures and change us into Islamic countries. Hell, the posters above even admit that Islam acts not as a religion but as a political ideology; if that is true then it will always be in conflict with Western values.

>That is absolutely incorrect. Paying jizya does a great many things - such as exempting non-Muslims from military service as well as exempting them from fasting during Ramadan. How is it humiliation or putting them into submission?

Non- Muslims should be exempt from fasting during Ramadan anyway; it isn't their religion, they should not have to follow your religious laws.

That isn't what Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi believed; he stated that; "The honor of Islam lies in insulting the unbelief and the unbelievers (kafirs). One who respects kafirs dishonors Muslims… The real purpose of levying the Jizya on them is to humiliate them… [and] they remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam."

Not to mention the Koran quote;

>“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” -9:29

Specifically mentions subduing them and making them submit.

>Do you think non-Muslims living in Muslim countries should be forced to participate in Ramadan? Perhaps you think non-Muslims living in Muslim lands and benefiting from various services such as roads and running water shouldn't have to pay any tax at all?

you can have non-Muslims not participate in Ramadan without taxing them for it. Here in the Western world we don't charge religious taxes; you pay based on your income, that is the most fair way to do it. You don't need to charge extra taxes on people just because of their religion.

Do you think I'd be having this conversation with you if I was actually from /pol/? I would have [foul language]posted about gassing you or wanting to start a holy war and then I would be gone by now.

>>17657

I can't even say sh*tposting?

>>17657

If you don't like Islam, then get off my board. We are not here to cater to your hurt fee-fees.

>>17657

>Non- Muslims should be exempt from fasting during Ramadan anyway

So you think non-Muslims in Muslim nations should be able to do whatever they want, but …

>Muslims coming here who want to subvert our cultures and change us

So, you get to change Muslim nations, but Muslims don't get to change yours. That's called "hypocrisy". Further, I am an American. I was born in America. My family has been in America since the 1630s. I didn't come into this country. I am this country.

>>17662

I don't give a [foul language] about hurt feefees; I care about Muslims trying to shove Islam down our throats. Muslims in the West are the first to cry about their hurt feelings and label any criticism as Islamaphobia or racism.

>>17663

Where did I I say that non- Muslims should be allowed to do anything they want? I said that I don't believe non-Muslims should be held to your religious standards, because they are not Muslims. Those are your religious standards; not theirs, and you don't get to impose your religious laws on people even when you are in the majority.

I don't really give a [foul language] about What Muslims choose to believe, as long as it isn't affecting anyone else, but when they start imposing their beliefs on other people then we start to have a problem. I don't mind Muslims nations existing, I don't mind Muslim nations having religious laws they apply to themselves, I don't even mind Muslims living in Western countries providing they follow our laws and mean us no harm. But I can't abide by having people trying to force their religion on me and damaging my country because of their religion. I don't really mind what laws Muslim nations have unti, those laws start to affect me, you can run your countries however you like.

>n America. My family has been in America since the 1630s. I didn't come into this country. I am this country.

Good for you; like I already said, I don't really have a problem with you living in the West, providing you follow the laws and don't try to take over our culture or anything.

The point of my original post still stands regardless; that Islam has used violence. As a means of conversion, even outside of the Arabian peninsula and that jizya is more than just a little, insignificant tax and it is unjust to tax people just because of their religion anyway.

>>17663

I just want to add that I don't hate you as a person; I'm sure you're a nice bloke in real life and I bet if we grabbed a beer together we'd have a lot to talk about, I just disagree with your religion. I don't even hate Islam, just disagree with it.

>>17664

>I don't really give a [foul language] about What Muslims choose to believe, as long as it isn't affecting anyone else, but when they start imposing their beliefs on other people then we start to have a problem.

I don't really give a [foul language] about What secularists choose to believe, as long as it isn't affecting anyone else, but when they start imposing their beliefs on other people then we start to have a problem.

>>17664

>don't try to take over our culture or anything

I have no idea what you mean by that. American culture is my culture. I have no connection to Australia nor do I share its culture, so you either forgot that you're using a VPN or you believe Australian culture is "Western" culture.

>>17675

> I have no connection to Australia nor do I share its culture, so you either forgot that you're using a VPN or you believe Australian culture is "Western" culture.

Australia is a Western country; with Western culture, we're secular and that's how I'd like things to remain. I don't want anyone forcing their religion on anyone else; I want to live peacefully without being beheaded, blown up or shot for being and infidel. Is that too much to ask?

>>17682

stop bombing muslims in syria and iraq and libya then ?

They want to live peacefully as much as you do but your people are bombing them constantly. if the government were to raise to price of alcohol you'd see every person in the street rallying but you won't see a single person of them calling out the war crimes your government is doing. Your actions causes their terrorism you are partially to blame for it.

>>17682

>Australia is a Western country; with Western culture

But not the only form of Western culture. Australia is not England, nor England Sweden, nor Sweden France, nor France America. There are many, many ways to be "Western culture".

>I don't want anyone forcing their religion on anyone else

Then you might want to go talk to /christian/.

>I want to live peacefully without being beheaded, blown up or shot for being and infidel

Then it's not us you need to worry about.

>Is that too much to ask?

Nope. Is it too much to ask that I be allowed to pray 5 times a day, go to mosque, and embrace my religion without people constantly telling me how I'm ruining culture or how I'm going to behead people and rape little girls?

>>17684

[foul language] off; I'm an isolationist, if I had any say in the matter we wouldn't be doing that [foul language]. I'm not going to feel responsible every time the USA gets a murderboner.

>>17686

>There are many, many ways to be "Western culture".

Yes, and? I never claimed Western culture was a homogenous monolith. However, there are certain values which overlap across most of them; secularism being one of them.

>Then you might want to go talk to /christian/

In all honesty I've met far more Muslims who have tried to convert me than Christians. I'm a secularist so I don't support them either, regardless.

>Then it's not us you need to worry about

I would hope not, but there's still other followers of your religion, some within my own country that would wish harm on me.

>Nope. Is it too much to ask that I be allowed to pray 5 times a day, go to mosque, and embrace my religion without people constantly telling me how I'm ruining culture or how I'm going to behead people and rape little girls?

You do you, as long as you aren't hurting anybody else I couldn't care less.

All that being said; I still stand by my original statement that Islam was violent, even outside of the Arabian peninsula and jizya (or any other religious tax) is unjust (and it's more than simply a little tax).

>>17687

>there's still other followers of your religion, some within my own country that would wish harm on me

Then maybe you should focus on them instead of coming here. We can't do anything about them and, believe me, they want to do just as much harm to us as they would to you.

We can either work together on that or you can continue to blame 1.7 billion people for the actions of a very few. That is, of course, up to you.

>>17650

>exempting non-Muslims from military service as well

Why would i serve the conquerers army?

>as exempting them from fasting during Ramadan.

Why are you forcing me to have ramadam , to then fine me when i dont ramadam.

>>17693

You seem to have missed the integral and most important part:

>IN MUSLIM NATIONS

See, when you go live in a Muslim nation, you damn well better adapt to the culture just like you demand they do when they come here. If you're in a Muslim nation and you're not a Muslim, then you pay the tax just like everyone else.

>>17566

It's very easy to condition and deceive even the most intelligent of people.

The idea that many people will embrace Islam in a world hostile to it (and religion in general) is rather fanciful and misunderstands human nature in general.

>>17758

And yet, even with the hostility toward Islam from outside miscreants, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

>>17758

The number of converts increased significantly after 11/09/2001.

>>17760

This is true. I, personally, converted in 2004.

>>17759

>>17760

The past 15 years of war against Islam has hurt Islam and Muslims significantly.

You can not say what happened on 9/11 was of benefit to Muslims or Islam in any way.

>>17782

it did though.Everyone now knows of Islam because of the war against it.

>>17785

Then explain why it's the fastest growing religion in the world.

Also, what is your point?

>>17786

>Then explain why it's the fastest growing religion in the world.

Birth rates etc.

>Also, what is your point?

Point is simple - all publicity is not good publicity.

The name of Islam and Muhammad (SAW) has been dragged through the mud over the last 15 years.

Muslims are supposed to excel in their conduct, and be ambassadors for our religion and our prophet.

>>17788

>Birth rates etc.

Not all people born into Muslim families embrace Islam. It has to be a personal choice and cannot be forced.

>dragged through the mud

The Prophet doesn't need our defense, rather we hope for his defense before Allah. People can think what they want and it is not up to us.

Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided. 28:56

Islam and Muslims look like deranged cultists to anyone who isn't one of them.

They pray five times a day (WAY too much to be sane.), starve themselves for no good reason, and worship a giant cube.

How f*cking nutty. It's like they don't even know they're in a made up cult.

>>17783

The British Brother is right. The publicity is almost 100% bad. Or used by liberal deviants to downplay the threat Wahhabis and Revolutionary Shi'a pose.

I would do [foul language]ing ANYTHING to have things be back to the way they were when I was a kid (in terms of Islam in the public light) Before this wave of terrorism.

I would LOVE for our religion and, especially, our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to go back to being one of those obscure figures in the Public mind. Like Hindu beleifs are now.

How many thes have you seen the sexual escapades and bloody struggle the entire Mahabharata describes being cherrypicked in articles by smug, trecherous populists to justify "War against Hinduism"?

Never. And I want that obscurity back again. I want Khomeini, Not The Prophet (SAW), as the one being slandered on a daily basis, a blatantly heterodox piece of [foul language] that no one cared about, so to say. From what I remember, no news show thought he was representative of Islam. He was part of an explicit minority sect.

Point is, the publicity was all bad. no good came of it.

>>17791

>>17793

>anyone who isn't one of them

>almost 100% bad

I think you guys may be hanging around in different places than I do. Outside of certain right-wing extremist circles, Islam is either a shrug or it's seen in a positive light.

Maybe you two should change the circles in which you run.

>>17794

>right wing extremist circles

Like the next US government?

In case you've not realised, right wing extremism is the mainstream now.

Also I'd guess most of those people who just shrug are being polite.

>>17799

>Like the next US government?

I don't think you've noticed, but since winning the election, Trump has softened up his message a lot. Right wing extremism will never be mainstream any more than left wing radicalism will be. Trump is not a "God-Emperor" and he can't do 80% of the stuff his followers think he can. It doesn't work that way in the United States.

>>17782

Some people became interested in Islam precisely because it appears to be a much more political and activist religion than others who breed passivity.

>>17849

Outside of bugs bunny cartoons (hassan chop!) and various movies I knew little to nothing about Islam prior to 9/11. It was just some exotic foreign way of life to me. I barely remember the Munich Olympics and had only read some poetry that my grandmother had on her shelf (Rubiyat, etc).

I started studying it a lot more in an attempt to figure out why we were attacked and how it was justified. I found myself learning a great respect and pity for the Palestinian people and declared my faith in the mosque the day Arafat died.