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| Rules | Log | The Gospel |

File: 4d489612a8468e3⋯.png (91.24 KB, 400x333, 400:333, 1549561832352.png)

e5d256  No.3243

How can God be the sole actor in calling someone to himself? If it's entirely up to God and not the individual to accept or reject the gospel, how is God just?

Is this a fundamental flaw of calvinism or am I missing something?

4c84f2  No.3246

>>3243

That is indeed a fundamental flaw in Calvinism and no, you aren't missing something except the parts in the Bible that directly contradict and falsify Calvinism.

Your problem is solved by dumping attempts to believe in Calvinism.


229b16  No.3247

>>3246

That's an easy answer that makes sense to me, but what's the best calvinist response?


72473e  No.3251

Why does that make his God unjust?


3d42c6  No.3259

>>3247

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion"

All men have no right to salvation, and without the help of God cannot accept the Gospel.


f7dd3f  No.4447

>>3243

That is the flaw of calvinism


e6a278  No.4449

Man is in active rebellion against God, and justly deserves death. When he brings a person to salvation he is showing inconceivable mercy and grace to that indivual. How can you call this unjust? Does he owe mercy to anyone?


f7fbd1  No.4455

>>4449

>here's some free will bro

>but there's only one option if you don't want eternal damnation

what did god mean by this?


e6a278  No.4459

>>4455

That "one option" is the created giving glory to the one who created them - that's hardly an unfair expectation.


ee66bb  No.4461

File: 70ef99892617afa⋯.jpg (84.91 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, Everyday_prayer.jpg)

>>3259

>All men have no right to salvation, and without the help of God cannot accept the Gospel.

Hmm. Isn't this what the Roman Catholics believe too?

As for the Orthodox, they don't like thinking in juridical terms so they will probably omit the first part of this sentence (have no right to salvation), but they will agree with the second part.

The Calvinism is founded mostly on bad interpretation of the following quote (Romans 9:29-30):

Whoever God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that his Son might be the firstborn among many brethren. Whoever God predestined, he also called. Those whom he called, he also justified. Those whom he justified, he also glorified.

Calvinists: God predestined for salvation whoever he wanted. Those who are predestined are saved, the rest are doomed.

Orthodox: The word "predestined" does not speak of predestination or fate but instead refers to the previous sentence of Ap. Paul: all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.

Whoever God foreknow, that is whoever he foreknow that thew would love God

he also predestined, that is he made all things to work together for their good

to be conformed to the image of his Son, that is to become gods by grace so that his Son might be the firstborn among many brethren

Whoever God predestined, he also called according to his purpose, that is for the purpose of making them in the image of his Son

Those whom he called, he also justified , that is he made them be righteous (justified is not a juridical term here or anywhere in the Bible).

Those whom he justified, he also glorified, that is the Saints glorify God and God glorifies the Saints who have glorified him "so that they may be one". (John 17:11)

How do the Saints glorify God? "In this is my Father glorified: that you bear much fruit; and [this is how] you will be my disciples" (John 15:8)

What fruits? Becoming like Christ in everything, up to your death: "Jesus said this to indicate by what kind of death Peter would glorify God".

Somewhat paradoxically, the Calvinists start from a bad starting point. They, however, reach conclusions that are much closer to the Orthodoxy than the other Protestants. They would agree with much of the above interpretation.


bae59a  No.4463

>>4461

You need to clarify who you're talking about when you say "the orthodox", I presume you're talking about easterners.

>Christians become gods

stop immediately

>Justified not a judicial term

It is an explicitly judicial (juridical) term

I am a non calvinist protestant and we generally reject your presentation, beyond God having a causal role in who was foreknown


ee66bb  No.4468

File: f8ebd2f0dc0332d⋯.jpg (650.7 KB, 1150x908, 575:454, eucharist.jpg)

>>4463

>>Christians become gods

>stop immediately

I must not. The quote above says the Son of God is firstborn among many brethren.

Do they have the Spirit of Christ, so that their prayers are prayers of God which can not be uttered? Yes, they do because we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26)

Do they complete what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ? Yes, I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh, I complete what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ for the sake of his body which is the Church. (Colossians 2:24)

Do they do greater works than Christ? Yes, they do, because whoever believes in me will also accomplish the works that I accomplish and will do [even] greater works than these. (John 14:12)

Aren't they partakers of the nature of God? Yes, he has granted to us his precious and tremendous promises, so that having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust, you may become partakers of the nature of God. (2 Peter 1:4)

Haven't they tasted the powers of the age to came? Yes, they were enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, became partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)

What was the purpose of the sacrifice of Christ? To satisfy the justice of his fierce Father so that he can accept sinners in his Kingdom? What a blasphemy and yet an official theology of some! What lack of knowledge of what the Kingdom of God is! Christ by one offering of his one sacrifice has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us:

This is the covenant that I will make with them:

‘After those days,’ says the Lord,

‘I will put my laws on their heart,

I will also write them on their mind. (Hebrews 10:14-16)

>>Justified not a judicial term

>It is an explicitly judicial (juridical) term

It is not. The English translations are greatly influenced by the Latin tradition. But remember that the modern jurisprudence was created by the Romans. Before the Romans, the languages didn't even have the modern juridical words.

Although in the Bibles the Greek word δικαιόω often is translated as "justify", if we look for this word in the Liddel-Scott Greek-English lexicon, we will see that it has three meanings, none of them juridical:

1. set right

2. hold or deem right, claim as right

3. do a man right or justice

The juridical meaning of this word appeared much later, in the Byzantine and the modern Greek.


eda744  No.4469

>>4468

1 Tim 2:5: "There is one God"

You are in contradiction with this by saying Christians also become Gods.

You are a brother with Christ as a Christian, but being a God is not a necessary condition for brotherhood.

Is that really what y'all teach?


ee66bb  No.4471

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>4469

There is one God.

His Son is God, but there is one God

The Spirit of his Son is God, but there is one God.

Each of us is called to become God by grace (that is by the Holy Spirit), but there is one God.

>Is that really what y'all teach?

The Son of God became what we were so that we may become what he was.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/theosis.aspx


c70d56  No.4473

>>4471

How does that not violate the law of non contradiction?


ee66bb  No.4474

>>4473

Interestingly, since the foundation of the Church almost 2000 years ago, all major heresies in the Orthodoxy are due to misguided attempts to explain the following two "contradictions":

1. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, they are not the same but they are the same God;

2. Christ is God, Christ is man, Christ as God is the same Christ as Christ as man, but God is not man and man is not God.


eda744  No.4475

>>4474

Those are paradoxes, not contradictions. They're also explicitly outlined in the text.

Are you conceding that your doctrine of Christians becoming gods is a contradiction with 1 Tim 2:5?


ee66bb  No.4482

>>4475

Of course those are not contradictions. But to the heretics they are because it is impossible to explain by human logic why those aren't contradictions.

>Are you conceding that your doctrine of Christians becoming gods is a contradiction with 1 Tim 2:5?

There is nothing to concede. Notice that I specifically emphasized that there is one God. But apparently I have to explain more.

All Christian denominations acknowledge that Christians receive the Holy Spirit, that is God. Through this the Christians can do miracles, they heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons, speak new languages, take up snakes, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will in no way hurt them. (Matthew 10:8, Mark 16:17, 1 Cor 12:8-10) In the Orthodox Church one can actually experience the union between man and God and know that this union is like the union between man and God in the person of Christ.

A Christian does not become a person of the Trinity. A Christian becomes able to do the works of God, the one God, not another God. The union of a Christian with God ought to be so all-embracing, that it is correct to say that the Christian does a miracle when God does it. Notice that Christ didn't say "God will do greater works in your name" but "you will do greater works". (John 14:12)


bae59a  No.4485

>>4482

I am honestly trying to understand. When you say "become Gods", do you only mean that God dwells in us? If so, that is just inappropriate phrasing.

To say "Christians are Gods" and "There is one God" is contradictory.


ee66bb  No.4489

File: f09e7b63df7d4a1⋯.jpg (38.82 KB, 800x531, 800:531, iron_and_fire.jpg)

>>4485

>I am honestly

Yes, I see this.

>When you say "become Gods", do you only mean that God dwells in us?

More than that. We are "born of the Spirit" and "what is born of the Spirit is spirit". (John 3:6) Yes, God dwells in us, but we unite with him. Our mind has the knowledge of God, what God wants is our will, what God loves is what we love, what God despises is what we despise. But all this is not like a submission to another's will, desires, etc., but like uniting. Uniting without mixing. A very hot iron has the properties of both iron and fire but the iron is not fire and the fire is not iron.


bae59a  No.4490

>>4489

I'm in agreement all the way until "become God". Why do you say this? Is it the brotherhood figure?


ee66bb  No.4494

>>4490

Because just as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, so a we are called to be one in them. (John 17:21) This "one" is not a symbolical brotherhood but an ontological oneness. We are called to do works of God.


8916dc  No.4495

Yes, because God in Calvinism wanted and caused all men to rebel against him but he hates that. So why does God hate the evil he himself caused? If I make a child spill mayonese on the floor and blame him for it, it is just stupid. Just like Calvinism which is in reality new Fatalism


8916dc  No.4496

>Partakers of the divine nature

>UNION with Christ

>Possess Spirit

>Prots think the union is just some distant thing with zero transformative effects

Even Luther of all people knew it is more than that and that's basic theosis


d87a0e  No.4497

>>4496

Who is claiming it's some "distant thing with zero transformative effects"


5cb4b7  No.4513

File: dc0e9971b87ae5d⋯.jpeg (62.36 KB, 542x690, 271:345, bill-and-ted-1-1550081085….jpeg)

>>3243

Its a fundamental flaw that exposes calvinism itself as a heresy

>>3251

<you dont have free will

<hell is a punishment for YOUR rejection of God

<God made you reject him, you had no choice in the matter

>that one

>Im all for sticking it to the rcc, but when that rejection creates error in us that is not acceptable

>>4449

I do if the actions are not a result of my own will

>>4461

<an end result of proclaiming a good translation as more standard than the original and not understanding the original

<always read the greek


ba0e42  No.4520

>>3243

You're not a brainlet. Your instinct on Calvinism being a fundamentally broken dumpster fire of a soteriology is correct. All philosophical/theological soteriologies, whether Calvinism or Arminiaism or Molinism, etc. ultimately have as their goal the resolution of the seeming paradox of God's Sovereignty and mankind's responsibility/free will co-existing. The reason why Calvinism is a dumpster fire is because if fails spectacularly in resolving the paradox of the simultaneous existence of God's Sovereignty (i.e. God knows all, including everyone's ultimate fates, and everything is ultimately under his control and will go according to his plan, period) and mankind's responsibility (i.e. we are not just pre-programmed robots or God's sock-puppets. We will bear responsibility for our actions at the Dread Judgement, which thus implies some form of free will on our part.) Calvinism fails spectacularly at this, because it essentially tries to resolve this paradox by effectively removing mankind's responsibility/free will from the equation entirely. As such, Calvinism can be refuted from a purely non-scholarly common sense logic approach. I realize that Calvinism can run on a spectrum, and some may even mix and match it with other soteriologies, so I know I'm going to get some "Not muh Calvinsim! You're misrepresenting!" responses. Nevertheless, for simplicity's sake, I'm going to argue against the most common streams of Calvinism: 5 point and 4 point. I'm also going to present the popular TULIP acronym slightly out of order for the purposes for argument emphasis.

First off, let's go through the classic TULIP acronym of proper 5 point Calvinism (once again slightly out of order to drive a certain point home.):

T- Total Depravity: Man is so totally depraved (i.e. "dead" in his sins) that he only has the free will to sin, and cannot turn to Christ under his own power at all.

U- Unconditional Election: In spite of our condition, God "Elects" whoever he wishes, not based on any works or internal merit of the individual, but simply just cause, based on his mercy.

I- Irresistible Grace: Once called/Elected by God, it is impossible to go against this calling or fall away, which leads directly to….

P- Perseverance of the Saints: Or as it is more popularly/colloquially known: "Once Saved Always Saved" which speaks for itself.

L- Limited Atonement: Once again, I saved this point for last, because all of the other points ultimately lead up to this point, and the implications that follow. Basically, according to this point, Jesus Christ only died, spilled his blood to wash away our sins, and resurrected, only to save the Elect, as implied by the four prior points.

Combined, these points present a host of disturbing problems:

1. All men are naturally completely helpless to come to God under their own power.

2. Thus, a man can only be saved if God specifically Elects him, i.e. metaphorically touches him with his finger/Effectually Calls him, and thus transforms him in such a way that he is able to turn to God.

3. Under this system, God can literally save everyone. Since everyone is equally "dead" in their sins, and thus can not be saved unless God essentially allows them to be saved, and no one is called based on inherit merit/works/etc., he can transform/Effectually Call and thus save everyone if he wants to.

4. This then paints a picture of God being, at best, capricious and arbitrary, essentially playing a cosmic game of "eenie meanie minie mo" with men's souls and salvation. At worst, it portrays a cruel God who chooses some for salvation, and allows others to flail about helplessly as they march towards their inevitable predestination in Hell, because… reasons.

5. Thus, the concept of human responsibility is rendered a sad joke. At the Dread Judgement, if God says "You are condemned by your own responsibility to the lake of fire" a sinner can effectively fire back with "You literally did not choose me, and thus I was literally incapable of turning to you in the first place. How am I responsible?"


ba0e42  No.4521

>>4520

cont'd:

Calvinists will usually weakly fire back with something like "creaturely free will!" But once again, this question remains unanswered effectively: if it is literally impossible for one to turn to God because of not being Elected, or rendered incapable of being Effectually Called, how can one be held accountable for not turning to Christ and accepting his free gift?

Calvinists will also usually respond to the arbitrary and unfair nature of God Electing some but not others with something else equally milquetoast, like "Well, it's God's will, deal with it!" or the ever classic "We all deserve hell anyway, so anyone Elected should feel grateful, period!" like >>4449 said like clockwork. No, he does not owe any of us mercy, but he grants mercy only due to the fact that he is an inherently merciful God in the first place. Granting a fair shot at receiving his mercy to everyone is in line with a merciful God. Giving mercy to some, and rendering others incapable of receiving said mercy, and then holding them accountable in spite of their literally inability to receive said mercy, is not.

Another typical Calvinist response to this is "But mankind being able to make a free will decision to accept Christ or not undermines God's Sovereignty!" Do you really think so little of our Almighty God, that you think our decision to accept his salvation or not can completely throw a monkey wrench in his plans? Really?

Finally let's cover 4 point Calvinism, which ironically demonstrates even further how stupid Calvinism is. 4 point Calvinism, is essentially just TULIP turned into TUUIP. In other works, Limited Atonement is swapped out for Unlimited Atonement. Why does this ironically make Calvinism look even stupider? Think of it this way:

Under the concept of Unlimited Atonement, Christ's sacrifice on the cross is effectively Christ metaphorically throwing lifesavers (the flotation devices used to save drowning people that are equipped on most boats, not the candy) to everyone who is drowning in sin (in contrast to Limited Atonement, in which Christ's sacrifice his Him only throwing lifesavers to the pre-chosen, while everyone else drowns because…. reasons.) With the other 4 points of Calvinism still in place, the Unlimited Atonement plays out like this:

Christ throws lifesavers to everyone who is drowning in sin. But only some (the Elect/those who can be Effectually Called in the first place) have been born with arms capable of grabbing onto the lifesavers. Those who are not Elect/incapable of being effectually called, are effectively born without arms, are incapable of grabbing onto the lifesavers in the first place, and then when they die of drowning, Christ will tell them "well, it's your fault for not grabbing onto the lifesaver I threw you." With the sinner being able to shoot back with "You never gave me arms in the first place!"

The only way that a sinner can be truly held accountable at the last judgement, is if they were given a fair chance at accepting Christ's gift, and rejected it of their own free will. In other words, only if Christ's Atonement was Unlimited, everyone was born with arms, and some choose to grab onto the lifesaver for dear life, and some choose not to grab onto it for reasons of pride, stubbornness, doubt, wanting save themselves from drowning via their own flawed human way, etc. Only then, can Christ say to such a sinner "You are accountable for rejecting the gift I offered you; what do you have to say for yourself?", and said sinner is left a stuttering stammering mess.

Therefore, only a system like Arminianism, Molinism, or some mixture of said systems in conjunction with some aspects of Calvinism, in a manner akin to Independent and non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, comes close to satisfactorily resolving the paradox of God's Sovereignty and mankind's responsibility/free will existing in tandem. In other words: God's divine foreknowledge, not "Election" in the Calvinist sense.

Additional note: I put "dead" in sin in scare quotes, not because I dispute this doctrine, but to point out how Calvinists twist this bit of scripture. Being "dead in sin" is a spiritual state, but Calvinists pervert it into meaning "So dead, one can literally not come to Christ unless he effectively gives you permission to through Election/Effectual Calling, thus bringing you back to "life" enough to THEN be able to choose him."


0ea49e  No.4524

>>4520

>>4521

thank you very much


fb041e  No.4549

Have you tried believing for only a moment?


ed00d3  No.4552

REAL CALVINISM HASN'T BEEN TRIED


8916dc  No.4553

>>4552

Beep boop robot


517f6d  No.4554

>>4549

What do you mean




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