/christianity/ - Christian Theology

It's better than being a Baptist

Have you looked into the Reformed position?

https://www.biblestudytools.com/history/calvin-institutes-christianity/book4/chapter-14.html

https://www.biblestudytools.com/history/calvin-institutes-christianity/book4/chapter-15.html

>>2202

No, because I find no sense of the existential in it.

Is your decision centered around the baptism debate?

How is the usual baptistic evangelical position not aligned with the picture of baptism as being buried with Christ?

>>2206

Evangelicals say that it is only symbolic. But the standard book on the subject says it is much more than that. There is real participation in Christ's death in Baptism, not symbol.

Baptism is not my sole reason for going away from non denom and American styled Evangelical. It's the lack of liturgy and pelagian doctrine of assurance too.

>>2209

Are you sure you're understanding the book right? Murray was as baptist as they come.

Where does it indicate baptismal regeneration?

>>2211

It doesnt seem that way to me because his explanation defies the usual talking point of baptism as a sign or some sort of pledge taken after one is saved.

When he discusses Romans 6, Beasley Murray says that the believer is set alongside Christ in his grave and attacks the typical evangelical "anti sacramentalist" understanding. He also cites a scholar that argues that being baptized into Christ's death in Romans is no analogy too. So unless somehow I am missing something here, he seems close to baptismal regeneration.

>>2214

what page are you looking at

>>2216

Pages 133-136.

>>2218

The description of baptismal symbolism is preceeded by quite a lengthy note about baptism as participation in Christ's death, as Beasley Murray writes right before:

>As pointed out above, 'We were buried with Him' indicates that the action of baptism primarily means, not that the baptistry becomes our grave, but that we are laidin the grave of Christ. To be buried along with Christ in a Jerusalem grave c. A.D. 30 means unequivocally that the death we died is thedeath He died on Golgotha.

Right after describing the symbology of the baptismal action, at the end of page 134 and beginning of page 135, Beasley Murray says:

It will be seen that all these verbs denote the unity between the baptized believer and the person of Christ Himself in His redemptive action and do not envisage the possibility of a middle term between. For this reason it is illegitimate to regard6fj.oiwfuiTt as a dative of instrument and interpret it as a synonym for baptism: 'We have become united with Him by the likeness of His death', taking baptism as an image of the death of Christ; rather it would seem that Paul speaks of our being involved directly with Christ in His death and resurrection through baptism.

The footnote on page 135 is clear on the real presence of Christ's death in baptism though in a "sacramental manner".

>>2219

How is that quotation not also figurative language? You're not literally dying and literally going back in time

>>2220

Because on page 130, Beasley Murray critiques the view that sees baptism as merely symbolic. For instance, right after critiquing that view, he then says:

>This writer howeverhas overlooked the significance of the fact, not unperceived by him,that Paul did not write, 'We were buried through baptism into death', but 'We were buried with him through baptism . . .'. Paul's first thought in this passage (and he has others!) is not that the believer inhis baptism is laid in his own grave, but that through that action he is set alongside Christ Jesus in His; in baptism he is reckoned as occupy-ing that grave as he was not before, just as an effective relationship with the Lord on the cross is assumed which did not exist before. Further the very real connection between baptism and the believer'srelationship to the redemptive acts of Christ is seen in the consistent use of the aorist tenses throughout the passage Rom. 6.1-11

Like if he is trying to just be figurative about baptism and what it does, why does he keep emphasizing this a lot?

>>2204

What do you mean?

>>2221

In the Reformed understanding, the statement that in baptism we are buried with Christ does not refer to the mode of baptism but to its function, namely to further our union with Christ. Baptism can be more than a mere sign without being a magical cause of all faith and blessings.

>>2223

Compared to Luther, Calvinism just doesnt have the sense of depth and passion. It's also bad at assurance.

I read about how Reformed view baptism mostly from Calvin and it is close to the evangelical view. Most of the symbolism are just analogies and Reformed dont really see baptism as the location of justification either. There's ingrafting sure but that's the closest he gets. Beasley Murray also poses a problem because a key part of Calvin's critique of Catholic mass relies on a denial of ananmesis, so much that even saying the eucharist is where the sacrifice is applied is sophism to him. Beasley Murray's baptism in the NT requires that logic to work, which Calvin denies.

>>2221

Using a figurative term several times doesn't make it less figurative. Where are you finding that he's not taking the Baptist position? He was a professing Baptist, taught at southern seminary, was principal of spurgeon college.

Are you also sure we're talking about the water baptism, and not the baptism of the spirit?

>>2230

He is clearly more than just figurative. Even if he is a Baptist, that doesnt change what he wrote. Can you provide me with evidence the standard evangelical view is what he has in mind? I can provide more than just the critique of the analogy position and the few statements I quoted

>>2236

That agreement doesnt take away from what he wrote in his book because he clearly goes beyond what it says. A lot more beyond I have to add. He has plenty of space to say baptism is just a symbol, especially when he mention participation in Christ or being buried alongside him. But throughout the book, he doesnt do that. It's more or less something close to baptismal regeneration and the Church of Christ view.

Here's from page 151 to show another example of the many instance of baptism going beyond a public profession or a sign,

>It would be equally permissible to affirm, 'The grace that is for faith is experienced in baptism'. Baptism is the baptism of faith and grace, so that in it faith receives what graces gives. Above all grace gives Christ,for Christ is the fullness of grace; faith therefore receives Christ in baptism. If Paul were pressed to define the relationship of the two statements in w. 26-27, I cannot see how he could preserve the force of both sentences apart from affirming that baptism is the moment of faith in which the adoption is realized — in the dual sense of effectedby God and grasped by man — which is the same as saying that in baptism faith receives the Christ in whom the adoption is effected.

>>2242

That's interesting, you might be right that he's deviating from the abstract of principles. This was a time before the "conservative resurgence" to restore commitment to the absract.

Could it be that he means the baptism of the spirit here? I don't think thats it.

Is he making the connection that professors are immediately taken to the baptismal waters?

He's still saying that faith precedes baptism by the statement "faith therefore receives Christ in baptism", so this is seemingly a church of christ style baptismal regeneration like you said.

Go for it. Non cucked Lutherans are the best Protestants

>>2202

Thanks for posting this resource. This is why I love reformed teachings; they are dialectical and clear.

>>2176

Just make sure you get confirmed and go through the classes. Its very important.

>>2176

If you're curious about Lutheranism, a good place to start is by studying Martin Luther, and checking out his Catechism.

>>2176

Confessional lutheranism can be pretty based. Read the Augsburg Confessions

>>2370

Sorry, but I do not believe that the thoughts of Martin Luther are the basis of contemporary Lutheranism. They seem confused in deciding between Catholicism and Protestantism.

Change my mind.