/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

What is the purpose of this thread?

>>804818

To ask why some Christians are so judgemental towards others for being sinners, when literally everyone is a sinner.

>>804819

See, liberal “Christians” love to twist this verse to say we should all be tolerant of sin and do logging to stop or even criticize brothers who are in sin. It doesn’t actually even say we can’t judge, just that we should judge by the same standard with which we judge ourselves. Liberal Christians can’t fathom someone actually being serious about their faith and not living in a constant state of mortal sin, so they take it to mean we can’t judge at all.

That wasn't exactly the point of Jesus' saying. He says right afterwards in verse 5:

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

He was teaching against hypocrisy. He wasn't saying to be blind to sin in general. Jesus said to make sure you're not guilty first, and then you are capable of being a helping hand to others struggling. And in this sense, it's not a condemning judgement, but done out of love.

If there was no judgement at all, then Jesus wouldn't have also told his disciples "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." And there'd be no point to the Acts, the WHOLE CHURCH, the myriad epistles and instructions given by these men. Nothing would matter. We could have just had degenerates rule the church, screaming "you can't judge me!" They could all be like Tupac "Only God can judge me!"

But that's not what happened.

Take for instance something like homosexuality- the problem isn't that they're sinners, it's that they insist they're not. Too many people use "judge not" to excuse or even justify sinful lifestyles - homosexuality, fornication, adultery, even murdering unborn children.

Remember the story about Jesus stopping the stoning of the prostitute. So many just quote the part about those without sin casting the first stone. But remember the end - "Go, and sin no more".

So yes we're all sinners, but don't just ignore the sins of those around you. There's no shortage of passages in the epistles about admonishing, rebuking and correcting those around you who have strayed - not out of hate, but out of love.

>>804988

The teaching is not clear; if it was, He wouldn't have given His Apostles all the answers to the parables, nor the power to His Church to bind and loosen with authority on Heaven and Earth.

If we take your proof-texting seriously, then...what, should we release murderers and rapists because they cannot be judged? If they can be judged, then your proof-text is erroneous. What about the thief on the Cross? He admitted his crime, admitted his due and righteous punishment, and entered heaven...but still suffered death for his crimes.

The Church teaches that Christ is proclaiming that He alone is Judge, nobody has the right to decide who is saved or damned outside of Christ alone. If you then move on to the distinction between mortal and venial sins, it is from Scripture, and the Church has the duty to warn the flock of sin that leads to death (judgement by Christ).

>>804989

>doesn’t make them any less Pharisaical.

Usually a poor circular argument, everyone's definition of "Pharisaical Christianity" is just the Christianity that they dislike.

>>804995

>Obviously a Matthean interpolation into Mark.

I'm not sure if you're new to Christianity, but the Gospels were inspired by the Holy Spirit, though the human instruments differ, it is de facto the same divine Author.

>But yes, don’t judge them in your heart.

Actually, the traditional teaching is to treat them dispassionately. Since Christ was not referring to "being mean" to your fellow men in that specific scriptural context, it follows that if you yourself do not commit the sin you accuse your brother of, you can safely rebuke him. We are even given instructions to rebuke him privately, then in the company of another, then to the entire Church by St. Paul.

>How is the ruling of pagan Rome at all relevant here?

Whether secular, pagan, or Christian, all authority is divinely authorized by God, please read Romans.

>Contradicting your earlier statement that the Church may judge definitively and Heaven will sustain its ruling.

There is no contradiction; the Church has the right to proclaim what is legal or what is illegal (in conjunction with both scripture and tradition), but Christ alone is Judge.

It's like saying that laws or morality is contradictory because there has to be a judge to pass sentence.

>>804995

>Obviously a Matthean interpolation into Mark.

Did you really just try to defend your false points by calling the Word of God a sham and rely on higher critical/literary analysis?

That's rhetorical. Of course you did. Obviously you're a faggot of some kind. And safe to ignore now.

>>805000

You can call me all the names you want. It isn't going to help you after this. Next time hide your unbelief and degeneracy a little better.

>>805004

Shaking the dust off your feet? Now you're using Jesus' words about persecution when preaching the gospel and applying it to atheistic scholarship? That if people don't accept your skepticism, you're like one of the Apostles who "shook the dust" off their feet?

And what am I hypocritical about? I didn't accuse you of anything I'm guilty of myself. So far, you're about as different from me as I can imagine.

Nor am I "mortally threatened". I called out your liking for higher criticism immediately. Because I know it and expose myself to it. You aren't special for this. If I was "mortally threatened" I wouldn't know anything about it and would have let your words slip by. And if my faith was weak, I would be like you, believing every novel theory that comes your way.

>>805004

>I’m shaking the dust off my feet

You’ll be back. Remember, you’re here forever.

>>805015

https://www.contradictingbiblecontradictions.com/

>>804817

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

I dont mind being judged by my own standards. And you are a disgusting leftist that is dishonestly trying to imply that a verse against hipocrisy is in reality one that tell us that we should be quiet.

>>805084

Schizopost, or non-native English speaker?

>>805139

No

I sin all the time mainly porn and masturbation, gossip, alcoholism, slight racism. The main difference is that I am aware of my sins and strive to be better. Each day is a battle, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. I want to be better. With God's help.

That's the difference between us and them. They don't want to be better, they want us all to be worse. I only judge those that encourage sin and promote it or won't call it sin. If a Christian brother fails and Sins, I won't judge him harshly because I know he struggles like I do.

>>805230

>“Thou shalt not be a disgusting leftist” isn’t one of the 10 Commandments.

You’re right, it’s all 10.

>>805196

>The main difference is that I am aware of my sins and strive to be better.

the main difference between the apostolic and the protestant, is that there is a normative, physical method of being forgiven of your sins.

I too attempted to "strive" and failed, I did not conquer my pornography or masturbation addiction until I went into the confessional.

>>805007

>Putting aside that you can’t really “safely” do anything before the Lord because all salvation is an act of pure mercy.

That's begging the question, Scripture provides multiple conditionals on salvation - including baptism, confession, eucharist, etc.

>Everyone is appointed to die once. I just didn’t see your point with this.

I do not see the point with your false equivalence, the power of State is divinely appointed according to Scripture, the Christian is not expected to be a subversive rebel.

>Torah is the Law, Christ is the judge. Not rocket science.

That is contradictory; for Christ did not abolish the Law.

>>805275

You're re-framing the conditions of salvation, I do not deny invincible ignorance nor baptism by blood or desire, but all Christians are truly called to receive the sacraments for salvation, we cannot in good faith intentionally leave out the True way for people.

>What’s the contradiction in what I said?

Torah is no longer the Law in and of itself, we must consider both the Gospels and the Church authority as binding parts of the Law perfected in Christ.

All of which requires preaching the binding authority of true Catholic doctrine.

which, seems to obviously contradict your original post here >>804988, which is an erroneous understanding based on proof-texting.

>>805275

I'd also like to add that your error in "do not judge lest ye be judged" you are conflating the right of Christ to judge souls in Judgement Day with the rest of the Church's ability to rebuke and warn sinners (and each other) to repent - which is exactly how the apostolic tradition teaches it

>>805015

>there are legitimate contradictions in the Bible

Like?

>I don’t believe the pope has the moral authority of Christ

That is exactly what He gave to the Church (St Peter in Matthew 16:18, rest of the Apostles in Matthew 18).

>>805027

>Thanks to the critical (“atheistic”) analysis which suggested to me that it might be an interpolation I now know this much more deeply.

How about actually researching how the Church believes it? You know, the one that can establish itself back to Christ, 2,000 years ago?

>>805251

See? You people can’t comprehend that we don’t do these things.

>>804817

>judge not lest ye be judged

is talking about hypocrites who judge others for the same sins they also commit. the point is not that judging itself is wrong, but that you should prioritize your improvement first, before you teach others (blind cannot lead the blind)

>Why judge others because they sin differently than you?

The bible tells us to judge rightly, with wisdom and such.

And that we will also judge the angels.

proverbs 31:9 judge fairly

leviticus 19:15 judge fairly

2 Tim 3:14-17 all scripture…is good for correction + rebuking (how can you rebuke others without judging them implictly?)

etc

>>805253

How many times did you go?

I have been many times but the addiction still remains, especially when I get arrogant or complacent and think it possibly defeated, it strikes like a ninja from the shadows.

It's nice that you mastered yours but I still struggle

>>805340

Bible tells us to rebuke and judge fairly. Tradition is in accord with this position.

>which sin haven't you committed

I've never laid with a man as with a woman. So if someone goes around saying they're a faggot and a Christian I'll rebuke them (fairly) and let them know the error of their way.

>>805340

>. Everyone commits every sin.

Where did you get that from?

>>805340

>We are judged by the whole of the Law, not just a part of it.

That doesn't mean you're guilty of every sin. The very passage you're quoting even distinguishes sins:

"For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law."

St. James said we become a "transgressor of the law". He didn't say the adulterer magically becomes the murderer. Believe it or not, God wants you to use logic. And this is not logical. The very law in question has different punishments for murderers and adulterers even. It's clearly different.

Secondly, try to stop thinking of judgement in only a negative light. The very passage that started this thread also has Jesus explicitly saying "take out the mote of your eye, and THEN you can help your brother". He didn't say it was wrong to point things out. once you're able to help others out. He assumed it. He only condemned hypocrisy and when you have earned the right to do this. This sort of non-hypocritical judgement can be done in love and with counseling in mind, in order to build up others.

And it's always a two way street too. Any given person is guilty of something, but there's always someone else who is wiser or more experienced and can help. But there will be no improvement for anyone if everyone lives in an insular fashion, due to following this hands off approach you're advocating. Society would soon break down. Both the Church and the world as a whole.

>>805345

>He also commands us to be perfect. If you are perfect, then yes, please judge.

This is indeed the ideal he calls us all to. But again, he didn't say you couldn't judge unless you were perfect. Again, he said, take the mote of your eye. Single mote. Single sin. Single situation. He didn't say "take all motes in the history of your life, along with the history of all mankind".

I can't tell if you're just screwing with everyone now.

One more thing. I'm not sure I can sum this all up here, but the old/Orthodox point of view on sin is that it is mainly a sickness. A sickness of our flesh nature. And like other sicknesses, it has prescriptions as well. The Christian life is one of removing this sickness with what has worked as reliable prescriptions.

If you think of sin in only a juridical sense, I suppose I can understand how you could be wary of "solutions" that are offered. But try to look at it as sickness: And if it sickness, then obviously "cures" would be a good thing, no? Festering away without any care to the sickness would be the dumb thing to do.

The ultimate cure lies in Jesus Christ himself and being reborn in baptism - but our walk with him continues after that as well, as we learn from others in the Church who've sometimes been through the same things. Hiding from it all is not going to do any good.

>>805336

>How many times did you go?

First time. For the purpose of honesty I will stay say I still struggle with custody of the eyes and the mind out in public, but pornography and masturbation addiction is gone.

>>805340

>I’m saying that being Catholic is not in itself a guarantee of salvation, which is true. Not all Catholics go to Heaven

Which is true, but there are still conditions established that must be met, which follows from scripture, tradition, and the Church teaching. Invincible ignorance must be genuinely invincible, and true ignorance. Not someone hearing the truth and deciding to turn away.

>Therefore, if Christ gives authority to an apostle, it is of utmost importance, which is the Catholic Church must be taken dead seriously.

Absolutely, and I compliment you on this, because arguing with particular people here and elsewhere is like trying to pick out my own molars with my fingertips.

>Christ’s teaching is “judge not, lest ye be judged,” not “rebuke and warn not, lest ye be rebuked and warned.

You need to understand when you offer up all authority to the Church, you are offering up the privilege of personal interpretation of the Scriptures. Proof-texting - that is, presenting a single piece of scripture out of context is an issue when you yourself cannot know (or do not yet know) if that is the teaching without cross-checking the Traditional Church teaching on it.

>provides a high quality Protestant exegesis of those verses.

The Catholic Church (and the Eastern Orthodox) interprets the authority to loose and bind all things on Heaven and Earth has the authority to not only rule canonically as a Church, but has a sort of executive rule over the meanings of Scripture. There have been many prominent, many good Protestant exegesis on many things, but when they are in conflict with the Church's teaching, you must give all credence to the Church.

the forbidden fruit was either a pomegranate or a fig. it wasn't an apple, this was introduced by a latin pun, as the word 'malum' can mean either 'apple' or 'evil'.

>>805366

just once wow

i find it too difficult to overcome my nature and replace it with things of spirit, even with the holy spirit in just one night, but it is my goal and only ambition in life, more than marriage, more than a prosperous job, I too wish to overcome it