/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>798537

>At the end of the day God still chooses to create people he knows will ultimately spend eternity in Hell. Is the way out of this that those people ultimately deserve it, thus it is just?

And if this is the case, how is this much different from Calvinism, which I keep hearing is heretical?

winnie the pooh I feel like my head is going to explode.

God knows what will happen, of course, but He doesn't not give us a choice. We choose ultimately where we go, God only provides the means and respects our wish, even if He—and it's true—desires us all to be with Him.

>>798545

>And if this is the case, how is this much different from Calvinism, which I keep hearing is heretical?

Calvinism is false simply for thinking we, as lowly men, are able to grasp eternity and the mind of God. It's not that predestination is necessarily false. It's the urge to build a system and be detailed about it that is flawed. It's the same with too much precision about the Trinity, which inevitably ends up in denial of Trinity somehow and heresy. Learn to love Mystery. As the scripture says, "Be still and know that I am God." And for the love of God, get over yourselves.

>>798546

I guess the thing that is hanging me up is, I find the idea of God creating people who he knows will go to hell to be quite disturbing, even if the response is that they deserve it in the end. I have trouble grasping that as all-loving.

>>798564

If God only created people that went to heaven to be with Him then He wouldn't be giving Men a choice in the matter, and love doe not exist without free-will. The freedom to chose to turn towards God or away must be present in order for those who have chosen Him to actually love Him.

>>798566

I know, and I am not rejecting that. I am saying that even given that, there is something disturbing about the idea.

>>798567

unless you want to go down the road to universalism, which I am also sketched out by, for different reasons.

>>798566

And what would you say is the point of all this?

>>798567

>>798568

Can you better articulate what disturbs you about that?

>>798582

What is the point of God creating Man? Is that what you're asking?

>>798593

Well, creating someone who you know will go to hell for eernity. Perhaps I am viewing hell or judgement wrong, but this does not seem merciful or loving.

I realize it is required for our choices to be actually meaningful, which is my problem with both Unitarianism and Calvinism. But still. Perhaps my view of judgement or hell is flawed.

>>798564

God's glorification surpasses all considerations. Only by glorifying, dignifying and magnifying Him can righteous ends be realized. The question then is, in what way will each individual do this.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3:30

>>798537

can god know something that doesn't exist 'the future'? at best he can predict.

>>798686

Yes, God is omniscient, which includes knowledge of the future.

>>798701

According to what? There are several times in scripture where he acts in ways that do not seem in accordance with the foreknowledge he should possess in according to you. Why would he bother telling people to do things at all if he knew they weren't going to do them?

At best, one might claim that though he may possess all knowledge, he does not have perfect awareness

I suppose posting this is kind of appropriate

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

Heaven and Hell are states of soul depending how one reacts on God and His love. He loves you and always will but it depends on YOU if you will reply with love or hate. So it's not as simple as you're trying to make it out to be. What you are asking is for everyone to reply to God with love, which, while would be a good thing, is ultimately only achievable of we remove the free will from Mankind. Hell wouldn't actually make sense IF predestination would be correct.

I don't know, personally this teaching helps me to fit the pieces in the puzzle, maybe it will help you too.

>>799514

>Why would he bother telling people to do things at all if he knew they weren't going to do them?

I can't think of the examples you have in mind, but it partly goes back to free choice. He is giving that individual the chance to make his choice. For example, if you gave a kid the choice between eating a ton of candy or doing the dishes, you know without a doubt that the kid is going to chose the candy. But if you were to simply punish the child preemptively because he chose the candy over the work, you would not be loving or just.

>At best, one might claim that though he may possess all knowledge, he does not have perfect awareness

This is entirely false and heretical, repent and read your Bible.

A lot of things made sense when I was told about freewill. We are free to sin, we are free to follow God. The only problem I have is when it comes to things like natural disasters hurting innocent people or kids getting cancer and other illnesses.

>>799739

>He is giving that individual the chance to make his choice.

It's not comparable. If God has perfect foreknowledge then the choice is not a meaningful one because whatever decision he was going to make was preordained outside of his control. There would be no meaning or point to the punishment either. God punished the Israelites several times in the Bible. Only rarely did they repent. Why would he even punish them in the first place if the decisions they made were not there own and whatever punishment he did he knew would be ineffective anyway?

The Bible makes much more sense if God does not have knowledge of the future. I have yet to encounter a verse that would require us to believe that he does.

>>799755

Read the Book of Job

>>799762

>Why would he even punish them in the first place if the decisions they made were not there own

exactly, why would He? Even though He knew exactly what they were going to do, it was still 100% by their own free will that they turned against Him.

>punishment he did he knew would be ineffective anyway?

How can you correct someone if you do nothing to show that they are wrong? Men cannot read the mind of God, so even though He knew that the Israelites wouldn't repent after their punishment there would be no way for the Israelites to know that they had angered God if he didn't punish them.

>The Bible makes much more sense if God does not have knowledge of the future

I understand that some things can be different to grasp simply from reading the Bible, if you do in fact read the Bible, but that is exactly why we have the Church to help guide our understanding of the scriptures. Visit an Orthodox priest, he'll help you to understand these things better.

>>799840

God only lets certain things happen, so no you don't have absolute free will. It's like a multiple choice quiz but he wrote the quiz and which options. You can't just do whatever you want.

>>799848

I guess the more pertinent question here is asking ourselves whether God had any choice in these matters either. Can he foresee the things even he will do? Is he a slave to time just like the rest of us?

>>798593

>What is the point of God creating Man? Is that what you're asking?

Yes, more or less. Obviously I'm not expecting an authoritative answer.

>>799852

This doesn't contradict what I wrote