/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>657770

>>795580

Definitely.

I like them

t. Catholic

Боже Царя крани

Definitely

Yes, of course.

I dont approve of it but Im not in a position to make such determinations

>>795777

Why not?

Yes just to piss off the commies

>>795798

For similar reasons why people aren't clamoring for Louis XVI to be saint. He did not die on account of his faith and made decisions that were disastrous for those who depended on him the most. Of course though I admit I am unaware of the miracles attributed to him and his family

>>795580

>controversy

From the remaining Communists maybe but really there's no reason for them to not be venerated as Saints coming from the EOC's perspective as a whole, they were a very faithful and practicing family that got martyred by the Godless and there are several miracles ascribed to them after the family's death.

No.

Only thing he is notorious for in this regard is being shot by Bolsheviks

No Russian m*narch from Peter I deserves to be venerated at all

Orthodox can do what they want, so I have no business commenting. I partly sympathize with the Tsar and his family and prefer his Russia to the later one, but WW1 was full retard and he was partly involved. Even Rasputin the freak knew better.

>>795817

Sounds like Bolshevik propaganda to me. The Tsar was a devout man and as monarch his position was technically in the church, not the state. He is annointed by a bishop not a public minister. He is accountable to God not to the public.

>>795833

I’ve heard this argument before but it relies on the assumption that hereditary succession has to be maintained for a monarch to be legitimate. This is not how it worked in Byzantium or even Serbia, where a pig farmer with no noble line was made monarch and his family today is the Serbian royal family. Nicholas was a good man and that’s what makes him a legitimate monarch, regardless of what previous monarchs had done. I agree with you though that Peter I discredited the monarchy.

As for WW1, you’ll find that many lies have been propagated by Bolsheviks just like in the French Revolution. Marie Antoinette did not say “let them eat cake” that was actually propaganda. The Tsar was writing to his cousin Kaiser of Germany attempting to avoid the war, but much power was in the hands of ministers in the Russian empire and it was a difficult situation. Also think about it. You’re president and you are told that war has broken out between major powers in Europe, some of which are your allies. All your advisors are telling you this should be a quick war. There is no 2020 hindsight. Also you’ve got revolutionaries calling for your head if you make a mistake. The press was hostile and Jewish. Put yourself in the mans shoes.

The Tsar actually went to the frontlines and tried to help. Also scholars in Russia now think his abdication is a forgery.

Not every Saint is a monk. There are Orthodox emperors who are sainted. God gives us all different abilities.

>>795867

this, so much this. Although the case of Byzantium is special, there were a lot of coups and revolutions that happened, but none of them lasted long. In fact the "golden age" of the empire came during the Macedonian dynasty, the longest one. Basil II was a kid when he inherited the throne, and managed to thwart 3 revolutions during his first years as ruler. He then went on to raise the Empire to unprecedented levels of power and prestige (perhaps only second to the times of Constantine).

But yeah, Orthodox tsars are God-anointed, that's why regicide is the worst crime. On the other hand, Nicholas II performed his duties up to the very end, refusing to leave the country when given many opportunities to do so.

Anyone who claims his sainthood is not deserved is probably a commie, jew, or protestant (inb4 what's the difference)

>>795833

>m*narch

Monarchy is the only form of government compatible with Christianity

>>795823

>there are several miracles ascribed to them after the family's death.

Like what?

>>796041

"No"

>>796041

Monarchy literally ruined my country and plunged it into a centuries of ottoman domination because the retards disputed over succession and divided the country into three kingdoms.

Fudge off with your pseudo-traditionalism. God in 1Samuel disagrees with monarchy, oldest Republic was founded by a literal Saint, Byzantium and Rome were at least de-jure republican where concept of monarchy was an anathema for their worldview (hence why co-emperor was invented, so that imperial title wouldnt be considered to be vacant), Rzeczpostpolitia was a republic, entire Italian peninsula was dotted by republics. Novgorod was a republic until disgusting Muscovites sacked it.

>>796117

Most of those republics you listed had monarchs anon

>>796117

>Roman Empire

>republican

lel

>co-emperor

>this somehow being equivalent to a republic

>Italian

You really want to use oligarchic republics as your shining example of democracy working?

1 Samuel is about the Israelites wanting a pagan monarchy exchanging pagan idols. Remember anon Christ is the king of kings explicitly.

Also what are you saying about a saint founding a republic?

Here are some shining republics in history:

Revolutionary France.

Weimar Germany.

Present day America.

Need I go on?

>>796136

>lel

It was. Julius Caesar who wanted to be Rex got stabbed to death. Augustus and his successors were smart enough to not anger public opinion, hence how concept of "princeps" arose and it continued until fall of Constantinople. Hereditarity was NEVER legislated in Roman Empire until its fall 1453 and at least De Jure, Senate still possessed power and approved the election of the Emperor

>co-emperor

>this somehow being equivalent to a republic

Learn to read, you moron. Co-Emperor position was invented BECAUSE Hereditary Monarchy could NEVER be established in Byzantium and it was a sneaky way for the Emperors to bypass technicality.

>You really want to use oligarchic republics as your shining example of democracy working?

Who is even talking about democracy? Do you even know how to differentiate between regimes and government forms? Or did you skip that part in school.

>1 Samuel is about the Israelites wanting a pagan monarchy exchanging pagan idols

Nice interpretation of yours. It doesnt mention "pagan" at all, it is clearly talking about monarchy in general and Samuel talked about the obligations to future monarchs without mentioning faganism.

Also, Christ is "king of kings" because there was no familiar word for "President" or similar type of republican rulers by that time. Your literalism is at the verge of protestant autism now.

>Also what are you saying about a saint founding a republic?

San Marino. Google it.

>Here are some shining republics in history:

Yay, nitpicking.

Here are some shining Monarchies too:

Ottoshit Empire

Persia

Mughals

Sweden

UK

Japan

Seleucids

Fr*nce

Modern day Spain and Netherlands

Need I go on?

Seriously, the quality of this board has decayed beyond pathetic compared to 2 years ago.

>>796142

<Seriously, the quality of this board has decayed beyond pathetic compared to 2 years ago.

>butthurt name calling post

>complaining about decline of quality

>>796142

>Do you even know how to differentiate between regimes and government forms?

What would your ideal regime be?

>>796150

>>wants me to do apologetics for Muslim monarchies when topic is about Christian monarchy

Not to mention that even for Muslims republicanism has been a colossal shitshow.

>>796150

A)I am not an American

B)since you seem to lack basic understanding in political sciences, here are basic division of concepts:

1) Government Forms: Monarchy Vs Republic

2) Regimes: Autocracy-Aristocracy/Oligarchy-Democracy

3I meant France as a whole and yes, this includes the disgusting era of middle ages when french monarchs allied with ottosharts and protestants against Habsburgs

4) I didn't mention Russia in that case at all (although they are trying to wipe out my country out of existence for some time now and held 1/5 of our lands occupied). I specifically referred to monarchs since Peter I who basically held Russian Church in custody after abolishment of Patriarchate and appointing oberprocuror as it's governor.

Maybe you would start working on your reading comprehension and stop showing words down people's throats.

>>796153

*that disgusting era in middle ages

>>795867

>Sounds like Bolshevik propaganda to me

Its propaganda to say he was a poor leader? Are you not familiar with his conduct in the Russo Japanese War and the July Crisis? He nor his family did not deserve the fate of falling into the hands of Bolsheviks and were let down by others but I dont see that excusing his consistently poor political decisions.

>The Tsar was a devout man and as monarch his position was technically in the church.

So does being killed for being a tzar in your mind automatically count as a martyrdom?

>>796152

My ideal regime would be elective dictatorship with three chamber parliament of majoritarian, proportional chambers with third chamber being a holy synod. With weighted voting based on education and contribution to the society, they're employment and so on. Woh Non Christians and ones who won't serve in army being stripped off their voting rights.

>>796157

With dictator being elected by the parliament I forgot that detail

>>795840

Also this. WWI issue is one thing that should not be forgotten. It paved the way for the bolshevik revolution too, unfortunately.

>>796158

Kinda like Papal Conclaves?

>>796160

More like a hybrid between Roman Republic and stabilized version of Roman Empire during principate without constant coups by Praetorian Guard.

>>796153

>this includes the disgusting era of middle ages when french monarchs allied with ottosharts and protestants against Habsburgs

When did middle ages become another word for modern era?

>>796161

Doesn't sound too different from an elective monarchy, to be honest. Your main problem with monarchies is heredity?

>>796155

>He nor his family did not deserve the fate of falling into the hands of Bolsheviks

That should be He nor his family deserved the fate.

>>796163

…ok, that part was my idiotic mistake. I should've typed early modern period

>>796165

That

And the part where you cannot impeach the ruler if he turns out to be a retard (although with proper voting system, filters and age census for candidates this problem could be minimised).

Though there's also a problem of potential idolisation of a ruler.

>>796153

>Jesus was a president

No, a president is selected by the masses. A monarch is annointed with holy oil by a bishop. Christ is king. You cannot hold that the Old Testament forbids monarchy and that Christ is described as a king, not a consul or whatever terms there were at the time. Christ spoke Latin and he would be aware of democratic terms but he did not chose them. My kingdom is not of this world He said to Pilate. If Christ is a president who elects Him? Who elects God? That’s blasphemy.

>Middle Ages

I think you mean the Renaissance.

>Habsburgs

Another monarchy. Hmmm.

>didnt mention Russia

Yes you did. >>796117

>Peter I

There have been bad monarchs. There have been bad presidents. That’s literally not saying anything.

>occupied

A government form did not occupy or invade your country.

>respect muh poli sci degree authoritayyyy

lel

>everyone who disagrees with me is uneducated

cry moar

>>796177

>Renaissance

That's an art epoch

>>796174

Name one instance when this system actually worked in reality. Besides obscure city states.

>>796179

Not necessarily. It also refers to political and economic development.

>>796177

*a monarch is annointed with holy oil*

Pardon I’m phoneposting.

>>796177

I would repeat what I have wrote about reading comprehension and your childish replies but did you unironically think that Muscovy is same as Russia? And yes,later Russia wasn't paragon of virtue either, bit Grand Duchy of Muscovy by that time was an utter abomination that only grew thanks to deceit and help by Tatars to whom Grand Princes acted like sycophants.

Grow up and start replying without acting like a manchild. Before that I don't see a reason why should I reply to you anymore.

>>796174

Well, I'm not a great fan of voting because it usually involves exchange of favors, political intrigue and general corruption. I think the risk of getting a feeble-minded monarch such as Charles II is generally overblown, and can be much diminished with modern understanding about how genetics work. There has also been lots of monarchs who abdicated due to being unfit for the job.

In a dictatorship you certainly won't get a retard whatsoever, but there's an increased risk of getting power-hungry psycopaths in office. Impeachment is also generally a political intrigue thing, and I don't think dictatorships handle the matter well.

>>796183

Hereditary succession is also full of that with murders involved. So no political system is really guaranteed to succeed in eliminating it fully. Humans are fallen and sinful, hence such practices are virtually unavoidable. Nevertheless, that's why I have mentioned census for age as one of the solutions, as with ages, certain urges and attractions to vanity more or less gets diminished. Also weighted working would favour those who actually understand what's good for the country and not vote candidates of the parliament for general promises of solving short term or illusionary problems.

Also, this is why I also included synod as the third chamber. So it could act as a preventive force to such persons to get elected.

>>796182

You sound super LARPy with your strange enlightenment despotic system and general sperginess / unwillingness to enter in charitable debate.

This is what happens when one studies the new “political science” instead of the classical discipline of history. You’ve spent hours of our time trying to convince us you know history when you haven’t answered any of your errors I rebuked here.>>796150 I understand you must be angry though with your poly sci degree being intellectually and economically useless.

>>796186

Uttering noises and typing "lel" and "cry most" is neither close charitable nor actual valid rebuking. And nor do I have degree at political sciences and again, your reading comprehension is showing. I mentioned it due to fact that said terminology was part of that sphere, though these are not even thought at universities but at schools. The only "rebuke" that is worth to be replied somewhat is the part of anointment, considering that elected leaders also got that. So operated Byzantium, so operated Poland and every dynasty who's founders were elected and invited to rule (like, let's say, Romanovs about whom this thread actually about). Here's your last (you) for me and see you until you get off from your prelest ride.

>>796195

Elective monarchy is monarchy. Monarchy doesn’t have to be hereditary. Get. This. Through. Your. Head.

Good day.

>>796197

Wasn't Rasputin more like a "doctor" for Alexei's haemophilia than a priest?

>>796198

He supposedly had magical healing powers and had become like a member of the family. Russian aristocrats believed in all kinds of occult, theosophical bullshit. To proclaim such people as saints is dubious at least.

>>796197

>they must be more popular in the American neo-orthodox community than Russia

if only you knew…

>>796212

St. Vladimir Christianized a sea of pagans. Tsar Nicholas, like all other Tsars before him from Peter the Great onwards, opened the road to communism. And no, it was not the jews, Russians had already turned away from Christianity exactly because of the way Tsars and the Rusian Church acted. You can say that Tsars from 1700 onwards were responsible for the de-christianization of the Rus, the exact opposite of what Vladimir the Great did.

>>796216

I knew this would become a mudflinging contest about the Russian monarchy and Peter I. I would just urge you to refer to >>795867 for my answer to that.

St. Vladimir was a pagan before becoming Christian who did some questionable things in his life too. Justinian fought many wars.

If you’re going to believe Bolshevik fake news stories and mythologies, I can’t help you. Dostoevsky literally predicted the revolution not coming from of the behaviour of the tsars but from the wickedness of men and of flawed ideologies like socialism built without God. We are blaming everyone but the Bolsheviks themselves.

>>796217

The fact that communists found support to the majority of the local population should tell you everything you need to know about the politics of the Tsars. Maybe he was a good man idk, but he was definitely not a Saint. Also the way he was canonized was wrong and not an actual demand of the people (the Church) but of politicians. Tom Hanks is also a good man and Orthodox, should we canonize him too? He can be the patron Saint of actors.

>>796180

His proposal reminds me of a Christian version of IR Iran and the Supreme Leader. Or alternatively, a USSR-like system with a Synod of Bishops instead of a Politburo.

>>796217

Justinian gave up a lot of territory to the muslims and put many christians under muslim rule while conquering already christian areas in and around Rome. What's your point about good politicians = saints?

>>796227

…that happened during Heraclius, century after Justinian. And the major factor for weakening of the Empire was a plague and eruption of a supervolcano in Indonesia (I think) that caused minor climate change and damaged agriculture of the Roman Empire.

There are several instances for what you can criticize Justinian (anecdota by Procopius of Caesarea provides a lot for this, though it's really, really biased and unjust towards Justinian mostly due to personal grudges), but giving up territories isn't one of those.

>>796219

**local urban population. Peasants liked the tsar

>>796228

Heraclius actually went and destroyed the sassanids. But he went because Justinian gave up land (although my mistake, not to the muslims but to Zoroastrians). Heraclius was forced to combat the empire and he destroyed it, which weakened the empire enough to give rise to the Muslim invaders from the arabian peninsula. but my point still stands.

>>796230

it's always the freemason cosmopolitans that winnie the pooh shit up

>>796231

…Heraclius wasn't after Justinian. And he never have up any territories at all. Territories started to decade during his son Justin II but not to mazdans by to the Lombards. And again, that's mainly because of the plague that devastated the population and depleted the empire's manpower

>>796219

Tom Hanks wasn’t put to death by Bolsheviks and he didn’t have one inkling of the burden Nicholas had.

The Bolsheviks were total rabble rousers who exploited a wartime situation to spread fake news. Popular yet deceiving demagogues have always existed since before Barrabas and the Pharisees.

Could the revolution have been caused by Jacob Schiff and other American Jews who sent billions to the Bolsheviks to agitate? This was the black lives matter demagogue (Soros funded) movement of their day.

Most Russian Orthodox honour St Nicholas II.

I’m just saying look at other emperors / political leaders who are Orthoo saints.

>>796237

Dude, Heraclius ruled in 600's Justinian in 500's..

>>796239

Martyrs are people who were killed because of their Christian faith and those are who we venerate as Saints, Romanovs aren't martyrs. Also the bolsheviks restored the Russian patriarchate which Tsar Nicholas and his predecessors had abolished so they can act as the head of the church themselves. In a way, bolsheviks did more for the Russian church than the Tsars ever did.

And for Christ's sake how can we have a Saint that was associated with Rasputin in any way? What kind of a saint can't tell the difference between a priest and an occultist? If Orthodox Saints can consult magicians, then how will you tell the laymen not to?

>>796246

Ever heard of St Boniface? I never saw a saint lie drunk in the streets on a regular basis.

>The republic sperg is back

>He's now claiming King of Kings was a crypto-republican title because muh linguistic limits, even though the Judeans were aware of republicanism as early as the Maccabean period

>He also appears to be a Ukrainian

>Muh Tsars are at fault for communism, even though the ideology only exists due to Enlightenment philosophers and their obsession with Injuns

This is somehow worse than the 'No King but Christ' goofs in Anarchist circles.

>>796228

Another point of note is the final Byzantine-Sassanid war, which IIRC, was instigated by Jews. It had to do with the merchants 'acquiring' the True Cross. Or at least that's how I remember it.

Justinian should have stopped after Africa. The conquest of Italy was a mess and a waste of resources.

>>796230

Even then, I recall the Bolsheviks struggling enough with gaining support that they instituted forced labour and banned strikes (thus, in a grand irony, depriving the proletariat of rights they'd enjoyed under the Tsar) to keep the show running during the Civil War.

Off-topic, but I feel obliged to remind everyone that the claim of the Sovok turning Russia from 'backwards and feudal' to an industrial superpower is a lie and a cheap justification for atrocities. Modern analysis affirms this.

>>796246

>Bolsheviks restored the Patriarchate

Tikhon was enthroned with no involvement from the Reds whatsoever (the council that oversaw his enthronement was convened in August 1917, and had initially been planned for 1906). This is flagrant historical revisionism.

>>796249

Dude, you are comparing people who lived in an extremely dangerous pagan enviroment with the supposedly head of the Russian Church? Nicholas was a Tsar, he lived in luxury and was born and raised Christian, St. Boniface lived among saxon cannibals in the 7th century.

>>796254

Tikhon found an opportunity to be elected for a short time period exactly because the Tsar had lost his power, but commies took over right after that and abolished the Patriarchy again. Then Stalin restored it back at 1941. But the Tsars never restored the Patriarchy nonetheless.

>>796269

i'm not comparing their characters, i'm refuting your claim that the sins of the past discredit sainthood.

Also the commies didn't take over right after the tsar abdicated, and tikhon wasn't installed by commies. Tikhon was elected 3 days *after* the commies took over in *Petrograd*. Stalin restored it because there was no way russia would survive without them believing in God.

>>796276

But you have to also keep in mind the era they lived in and their enviroment. Constantine was a born and raised pagan, ruler of an almighty, anri-Christian, empire who converted to Christianity and stopped the persecutions. You can't compare him to Tsar Nicholas who was born and raised Christian and already the head of the Church in a Christian nation.

>>796287

>head of the church in a Christian nation

he wasn't the pope yknow. Also, why are we talking about Constantine?

>>796303

Don't you know that Tsars, starting by Peter the Great, were the head of the Russian Church and there was no Patriarch? Nicholas was too.

I gave an example of a Christian emperor that can actually be called Saint.

>>796326

if you can show me where it's written that they were the head of the church I would appreciate that. I know that the synod was the highest authority and under the civil jurisdiction of the tsars, but they weren't the official head of the church like the (technically not even the patriarch) is.

>>796345

When you abolish the Patriarchy and create a synod of buraeucrats and bishops whom you appoind to rule the church, you're the de facto head of the church. I've read that the Tsars were also head of the Church, Anglican style, but i can't find a source now.

>>796246

Russian Orthodox Church canonised basically every Christian martyr of Bolshevik persecution as a saint. The Tsar did not get special treatment if that’s what you’re implying. They were canonised as one big bunch and rightfully so.

Stalin set up a puppet church which was largely ignored as it was compromised with informers, but the early Bolsheviks were even more horrible, smashing icons, raping nuns, putting Christians to death left and right. Even in the late Soviet Union they would put patrols on the street to make sure no one young was allowed to go to church only the old. Also they would prohibit Christian burial services. It was not a good time for the church but there was an underground church.

>>796246

This is the kind of yellow journalism the Jews did in Russia. Rasputin was this, he was that, he was an occultist. It’s like the yellow journalism that goes on today about Dugins supposed influence on Putin. Rasputins influence was minor, and those making allegations about him can never provide specifics.

>>796276

Also the Tsar’s abdication was probably forged to demoralize the Russian army still fighting. It wasn’t done on the official imperial standard and Nicholas was a stickler for protocol.

>>796197

If Trump can end the persecution of Christians in America, and convert to Christianity, he can be a saint.

As for the Tsar, he was martyred by commies.

>>796387

Martyr in the ecclesiological language is someone who is killed because he refused to deny Christ. It comes from the Greek word Martys, meaning witness. Seculars also use the term to describe those who died for their political ideology or cause. Tsar Nicholas was a martyr in the secular sense. His canonization was also for secular reasons.

>>796401

Rasputin is yellow journalism? They literally killed his because of the influence he had in the Romanov family.

>>796517

No we won't. There're already a bunch of celebrities that have converted to Orthodoxy and some are even doing some serious charity work. We won't canonize any of them because sainthood doen't work like that in Orthodoxy. Also the Tsar wasn't martyred.

>>796185

>Hereditary succession is also full of that with murders involved.

Not really, no. Almost all regicides in the last 500 years, especially in Christian monarchies, were perpetrated by revolutionaries or other political radicals, not by someone in the royal court. Take a look at the "List of Regicides" section of the Wikipedia article if you wish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regicide).

That risk is way too overblown because it is a recurring trope in fiction, from the works of Shakespeare to normie stuff like Game of Thrones.

>>796805

>Regicides

It's not about solely kings, but potential heirs also.

>>795580

Passion-bearers yes, saints no.

>>796797

Once again… almost all those martyred by the Bolsheviks were canonised saints. Russian Church outside Russia canonised them as not just passion bearers but martyrs. Moscow Patriarchate canonised them too in 2000 as just passion bearers.

Also Nicholas wasn’t asked to deny Christ because the revolutionaries just wanted him dead so that isn’t really a fair critique. Monarchs are anointed with holy oil because they are protectors of the church, their position is in the church.

To be consistent if you deny Nicholas IIs sainthood you must also deny most of the other new martyrs. And Nicholas II suffered equally to them through this Bolshevik barbarism.

>>796806

I don't know if someone made a specific research on heirs, but I'd wager it's a similar picture.

>>796844

>Also Nicholas wasn’t asked to deny Christ because the revolutionaries just wanted him dead so that isn’t really a fair critique

But that's what a martyr litarally means. If anything, is the man who was killed because of his faith. I repeat, this is the meaning of the word in the Orthodox church, seculars give it another meaning and Russia gave the title of martyr to Tsar Nicholas in the secular sense because he was canonized for secular reasons.

>To be consistent if you deny Nicholas IIs sainthood you must also deny most of the other new martyrs

No if they are martyrs. In the ecclesiological sense of course not the secular one.

>>796808

>he doesn't know that passion-bearers is not a separate "order" of sainthood like the catholics have

How come Tzar Alexander isnt a Saint considering his assassination?

>>796797

The Duma provisional government (sworn enemies of the Tsar) set up a commission in which they established from the evidence availiable that Rasputin was completely above the board. He was not a sex crazed lunatic or occultist. Kerensky and the high commission admitted there was no substance to anything being said in the press about him. The enemies of the Tsar needed a character to create to discredit the popular Nicholas since the cowards could not attack him directly. Rasputin wanted to go home and didn’t care for palace life, all he did was give some peasant alternative medicines to the Empress. The royalist press was outlawed by liberal administrators at that time so this yellow journalism was allowed to spread like wildfire. It was basically the “Russia hacked the election” of its day.

>>797008

>Set up a commission in which they established from the evidence availiable that Rasputin was completely above the board

Source on this?

>>797008

So you're saying that Rasputin was a perfectly fine Russian monk that was discredited by the press? Because i'm reading that the holy synod frequently accused him for his practises but through his connections to the royal family he could move and deflock the bishops who opposed him according to his will. And eventually, he was killed by royalists because of the influence he had to the Romanovs, not enemies of the Tsar. Probably many of the stories about him are exaggerations indeed but he was definitely not an Orthodox and not a real priest.

Not that Rasputin is the only reason i'm opposed to the canonization of Tsar Nicholas but the reason and the way he was canonized is not Orthodox. The practise to canonize your public figures comes from the Catholic influence to the Russian church ever since the reforms of Peter the Great.

>>797064

Public or private, Tsar Nicholas was canonised with a large group of new martyrs, common and noble born alike. It had nothing to do with him being a public or popular figure.

>>797049

>>797064

The Provisional Government's “Emergency Investigation Committee for Misuses of Former Ministers and other Chief Executives” (EIC) was convened to discover all the evils of the royalist regime and they admittedly found absolutely nothing. One of the people they totally exonerated from any wrongdoing was Rasputin. They actually interviewed people around the Romanovs and couldn’t find anything that he had done wrong. This was all affirmed by the attorney general under oath. They found the Tsarist government had applied the highest ethical standards in their governance. Remember this is from the Kerensky, a known Freemason, government. Sworn enemies of the Tsar.

>>797064

This + he was killed by a known gay person, knyaz Yusupov at his house. Not saying that Rasputin was a holy person, or someone special, and did not exert too much influence on the tsar, but what >>797157 said + the fact that he was killed by a gay freemason must say something about him.

>>797168

Faggots and Malevolent people killing eachother is not something new.

>>797170

>malevolent

The Tsar told his supporters not to avenge him as two wrongs don’t make a right.

>>797186

What does it have to do with the Tsar.

I'm speaking of "faggots and Malevolent people" as one category. a faggot killing a faggot doesn't make he latter not faggot

>>797187

The idea that the Tsar was malevolent is Bolshevik propaganda. There’s nothing to support it. I could provide piles of evidence… but modern brainwashing is just too strong.

>>797168

Rasputin was literally a nobody. He just wanted to go home to Siberia. He had no political agenda as the EIC established, the only attempt to actually get into the facts of what happened rather than just yellow journalism and gossip. He received no bribes or rewards of note. He was a healer who helped the tsars son and wife with peasant medicine, that is all.

Apparently facts and evidence are too hard for some people on here. They just want to gobble up uncritically anything they are told fifth hand.

>>797191

Can't you bloody read? I. Am. Not. Talking. About. Nicolas. Here. I was talking in regards of Rasputin.

>>797202

Look here. >>797192

>>795580

Why didn't he pursue an armistice or conditional surrender to the Central Powers prior to getting overthrown?

Was the German Empire that scary?

>>802224

Russia simply wasn’t losing the war. There was a stalemate on the Eastern Front so much so that the German Empire had to ship a communist Jew named Lenin in a train to Russia

>>795833

t.bolshevik historical revisionist

>>802254

proof?

F

>>795580

Too oppressive.

>>795840

Rasputin is like Russian Jesus imo lol.

>>802414

Name one oppressive thing he did.

>>802630

Didn't kiss Jewish ass enough.

>>795580

>should the tsar and his family have been venerated as saints?

I don't know, should a man partly responsible for one of the most devastating wars in history be venerated?

Should a man that ordered his soldiers to shoot innocent workers be venerated?

Or a man that in his hubris took up arms and led his armies to slaughter?

For all we know Nicholas was a pious man, but he did not die for Christianity, he died because a communist group decided to eliminate any chance of a continued monarchy in Russia.

Should Hitler also be venerated? I mean, he died fighting the communists.

>>802800

>hubris

that's a catch 22. the tsar commands armies in the field like a traditional monarch and jews call that "hubris". if he didn't, they would call it "cowardice". these jews are rabble rousers.

>martyr

passionbearer.jpg

not every saint is a martyr

>1905 massacre

the tsar didn't order that. he is not superhuman. he cannot be at all places at all times. he wasn't even in Petersburg.

>WW1

2020hindsight.jpg

where were you in the July Crisis? oh right you weren't even born yet

>>802800

>Hitler

Hitler wasn't even Orthodox. that's just a red herring.

>>802824

>that's a catch 22. the tsar commands armies in the field like a traditional monarch and jews call that "hubris". if he didn't, they would call it "cowardice". these jews are rabble rousers.

this. Damned you do, damned if you don't.

>wilhelm II doesn't fight in war

>omg such a coward that hid behind his palace sending men to die

>tsar commands his armies personally

>omg such a presumptious incopetent fool that doomed everyone!

>>802929

The Thrid Rome prophecy is where the Latin influence to the Russian church manifests herself in all her glory. A cheap imitation of the Donation of Constantine, but now instead of the Holy Franks we have the Holy Rus that will inherit the powerful empire. Be wary of such claims especialy when they come from white nationalists like Matthew Raphael Johnson who try to merge their esoteric occult beliefs with Orthodoxy.

p.s: There was never a second Rome to begin with btw

>>797157

>>797168

Can you provide a link or something when I googled that investigation all I found was 6 results half of which were stormfront posts and one priests blog post which has no references or citations of any kind. Im not saying you are wrong though.

>>802824

>that's a catch 22.

Leaders havent been considered cowards for not personally leading the military for centuries. Its not a catch 22.

>the tsar didn't order that.

Thats correct.

>passionbearer.jpg

Incorrect they are recognised as matyrs by the Russian Orthodox Church as of 2000.

>2020hindsight.jpg

Not really, they had the experience of the Japanese War.

>>803085

Stop bearing false witness. MRJ is not a "white nationalist" or an occultist. He was on Jays Analysis and is 100% Orthodox.

Second Rome is Byzantine not the Franks. Theyre Third Rome simply based on the fact Russians had a royal marriage with Byzantine imperial family.

There is no "Latin influence" to Third Rome idea, in fact Peter I wanted to Latinize everything and suppressed the Third Rome idea.

>>803123

Japan was exhausted by the Russians.

ROCOR recognizes them as martrys, Moscow just as passionbearers. Regardless, they are saints.

>correct

You just said he ordered it!

And what you said IS a catch 22. It's not prideful for a monarch to lead the army. That's their JOB traditionally.

>>803140

He is commemorated for his death at the hands of commies, not his policy towards the ethnic minorities of the Russian Empire.

It's the one main flaw of Orthodoxy, imho. Too chummy - and dependent - on secular leaders. Going back to at least Justinian (who was able to harass bishops and force his peculiar doctrines.. all while he was married to highly zealous, monophysite courtesan). Where Catholics have the lunacy of holding one bishop above all others, even when he's an outright heretic, Byzantine tradition sometimes could follow or venerate it's emperors too much.

>>803140

Are you even Orthodox bro?

>>803158

Even the fact that we have this conversation and that numerous Orthodox disagree with this shows that emperors aren't idolized as you want to believe. In addition, Nicolas is a local Saint, meaning that the fact that Russians venerate him doesn't mean that other Orthodox do it too.

>>803160

That's a fair point, but Nicholas is actually the least I'm concerned about. WW1 was a debacle across the board, and Russia might've been some of the more admirable players of the bunch. He didn't start that war - he was just obligated to defend Slavs. He's no Ivan the Terrible, for sure.

>>803158

>secular leader

What do you think the Roman pope is?

Or American Protestants worshipping the constitution?

Church and state are meant to be in symphony, that’s the traditional view.

It’s funny that people make this criticism because Orthodoxy has not shifted on doctrine and innovated like Rome or its Protestants have.

>>803166

You're not assuming I'm a Protestant, are you? Because that's just as ridiculous. Maybe Satanic even. Lucifer is the original rebel and champion of individual rights.

I think I'll call myself the descendant of victims of Justinian. I stand for the Church that existed before both Rome and Byzantium, that rarely has a voice now.

And I'm saying multiple bishops should always out-rule everyone, and be the sole mobilizing force of doctrine and mission. This *should* be orthodoxy, but Eastern tradition has fallen for the some of the same monolithic silliness as Rome did. Just not as badly. And on the secular end (rather than the popish end).

>>803168

>Lucifer is the original rebel and champion of individual rights

>HowtospotaLARPer.jpg

>>803168

Do you not accept the seven ecumenical councils?

I don’t know what you are, friend. Don’t get so offended when I’m simply trying to understand. You seem to be making a criticism of the emperors just like American Protestants kvetching about Constantine, and like them you are being incredibly vague. Are you a Coptic?

>>803186

What is your specific issue with the councils and the Orthodox Church?

>>803194

A dirty word now. Apokatastasis/5th Council.

It effectively/retroactively condemned a host of of some of the Church's most beautiful saints of the previous 5 centuries, all because a secular leader had civic/earthly fears that such a doctrine would breed a lax attitude toward morality. You're right that civic and church authority need to work together, but it's entirely wrong for civic fears to shape doctrinal ones..Civic power doesn't mean "I get to decide Church power too". :et alone condemn saints and relegate once commonly taught doctrine to the realm of fear, where most barely speak of it. And if they do, they instinctively repeat Justinian.. as if he is more of a saint than Sts. Gregory of Nyssa, Macrina, or Maximus. It's very schizophrenic, since people will praise them in another context. And it's so far in the past now, that Orthodox will and can not reckon with it. So I don't consider myself a Christian of the 7 councils or "Orthodox" either. I belong in the catacombs.

>>803196

Again, your LARP is showing. ecumenical council never condemned apokatastasis in general. When certain thing is condemned, it's not a separate concept mentioned in the part, but rather the entire article. The 5th ecumenical council's article there talked about Origenist apokatastasis (which included salvation of demons) and several teachings of Origen in general. included annihilation of the matter, turning people into spheres, and so on and so forth.

Apokatastasis is still a valid theologoumena and is held by numerous clergymen and bishops. Stop believing in retarded memes modern day historians keep shoving down in people's throats

>>803196

Orthodox monks praise St. Gregory of Nyssa all the time. You sound genuine but this minutiae does not justify you cutting yourself off from the Church. I will pray for you.

>>803205

The last time I checked being in a political party does not cut you off from the Church, otherwise all democrats, republicans are cut off too.

For anyone interested you can give to Dr. Johnson’s Wordpress and read his essays for yourself, he’s fully Orthodox and believes in ethnic nationalism as the Orthodox Church supports. It’s the normiedox liberals trying to poison the well who are unorthodox.

>>803213

*go to

The essays are free to read.

>>803205

We should go everywhere and preach the Gospels to all that may hear. To the “white nationalists”, to the liberals, to the communists.

That’s why the liberal virtue signaling and guilting by association is unchristlike and unchristian. Christ, our Lord, spent his time with prostitutes and tax collectors, soldiers and lepers, sinners of all stripes.

>>803219

*spent his time preaching to

>>803219

Agreed, but we shouldn't try to merge Orthodoxy with white nationalism which is outright heresy

>>803221

Only he’s not.

See this >>803213

>>803137

>Japan was exhausted by the Russians.

The experience Im talking about is the Russians were the only country in Europe who had direct experience of 20th Century warfare between industrialised powers and trench warfare. In in addition to the fact that with modern technology even a country as weak as Japan could cause serious trouble let alone a country like Germany.

>You just said he ordered it!

I didnt, check the post IDs Im a different anon

>And what you said IS a catch 22. It's not prideful for a monarch to lead the army. That's their JOB traditionally.

The prideful aspect comes from rejecting the counsel and leadership of the experts you appoint to handle such matters despite having no knowledge to add to the situation. You would have to go back centuries to find monarchs being criticized for directly leading their armies. Ever notice how nobody gave Karl Franz, Mehmed V or Ferdinand I any criticism or mockery for cowardice for not leading their nations military?

>>803441

Oh and I was wrong about the Martyrdom I mixed up my jurisdictions.

Maybe but what I definitely know is that all commies must be sent to hell.

>>795817

>Louis XVI didn't die a martyr

Didn't Pope Pius VI almost get him beautified?

>>795867

Tsar-Martyr Nicholas was a great man that was slandered by his enemies. He was on the cusp of liberating Constantiople. Of course, they should have canonized him. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

BTW, we need a list of all Orthodox monarchs that are widely considered canonized. Off the top of my head:

St. Constantine (Roman Empire)

St. Theodosius (RE)

St. Justinian (RE)

St. Tervel (Bulgaria)

St. Nikephoros II Phokas (RE)

St. Olga (Kiev) [regent]

St. Vladimir the Great (Kiev)

St. Tamara (Georgia)

St. Andrei (Vladimir)

St. Lazar (Serbia)

St. Stepan (Serbia)

St. Constantine XI Dragases (RE)

St. David (Trebizond)

St. Stephan (Moldova)

St. Alexander (Mangup/Theodoro)

St. Aleksandr Nevsky (Vladimir|Novogorod)

St. Paul (Russia)

St. Nicholas II (Russia)

They are saints. Debate on the matter is meaningless.

>>803698

Paul I was extremely based. So much false history written about him. My ancestors actually cooked for him.

>>803698

I left out St. John III Doukas (Roman Empire/Nikaea)

>>803698 San Vlad III

>>803884

Vlad III Țepeș isn't widely considered a saint but should be for his outstanding defense of the Orthodox Christians in Wallachia and northern Bulgaria.

>>803902

Tbh only reason for why he isn't venerated as Saint is his alleged conversion to catholicism for political reasons, but it may be misinformation

>>803205

>>803205

His podcast is called "The Orthodox Nationalist", which is hosted on a website called "Radio Aryan". He's a racial Orthodox nationalist, which, as another poster said, is biblically consistent.

>>803140

Before finding out that his government had a large part in starting world war one I really admired him for his death in hands of bolsheviks.

Maybe if he was not that soft on bolshevism, he could have avoided it.

I still respect his martyrdom. But not 100% of his deeds were good just because he died by martyr death

>>803161

>he was just obligated to defend Slavs. He's no Ivan the Terrible, for sure.

Well the Austria-Hungary acted as any country would in the light of what happened. It is debatable whether Russia wanted to "defend slavs" or wanted to secure more land and had geopolitics in sight. Russia mobilized first after all, before Germany and AH.

>>803964

The most beautiful faith in the world and Americans only come here because they think it's somehow "racial". It makes me sad really.

>>803977

You're projecting pretty hard there, friend. Don't try to ascribe motive just because I pointed out an error.

>>804063

What is the error? That you can be a "racial nationalist" and Orthodox at the same time? Try talking about it to your priest if you dare.

>>804140

I'm simply talking about the false claim that his podcast is called "Radio Aryan". Or at least I was, I'm only now realizing that >>803205 didn't say that. Radio Aryan is indeed the website, not the name of Jonhson's podcast.

As for said podcast itself, I've only listened to a few episodes here and there, but I do remember him making a decent reasoning for why the Orthodox church works regardless of the people practicing it, because of the nature of people as intended by God or some such.

>>804140

I have. My local church are Serbian nationalists. It's called an ethnic group. It's called normal Orthodoxy.

Dr. Johnson is an ethnic nationalist like the rest of the Orthodox church.

Can we get back to Nicholas II, normiedox? Stop taking this thread off track.

>>804226

Serbs were part of one huge missionary effort to the Slavs once. Not a single branch of them meant anything more than the other - they all received the same gospel, the same liturgy, the same alphabet, and the same scriptures. Sts. Cyril and Methodius weren't Slavs, and yet made the Slavs more than they were. Slavs were worthless barbarians beforehand. Just as Cyril and Methodius were once from a worthless lineage of Greeks. The only thing that ever mattered was coming to Jesus Christ. That's the only nation and race that means anything.

"You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." - 1 Peter 2:9

Anyone who thinks that St. Peter was talking about flesh when he says "race" has missed the whole point. That's precisely the retardery that the Jews were polluting everyone's minds with. And you're playing their game. Stop it. As Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

>>804235

There is nothing in Orthodoxy whatsoever that precludes ethnic determination, and the pure irony of you invoking "the jews" in your argument is the funniest part this.

>>804140

How about to take it up with St. John of Kronstadt or St. Seraphim of Sarov? There is NOTHING in Orthodoxy that precludes ethnic determination and loyalty. NONE.

>>804254

Imagine trying to teach St. John of Kronstadt and St. Seraphim of Sarov that racemixing is forbidden in the Bible. And don't try to mix the perfectly ok feeling of loving your country and people with racial purity and racial nationalism and other protestant values.

>>795580

Are you talking seriously? This man has taken over so many lifes that is so remarkable. I can't get why have you even tried to consider him as a saint. I am from Poland, but I have ancestor who lived in Syberia and this man just got my family kick off from their previous lands, which, btw they've been forced to dwell in there.

>>804582

>no specifics

cool story bro

>>804458

Watch out, LARPodox, the ebil papists are comming for your precious bodily fluids.

>>803970

>Before finding out that his government had a large part in starting world war one

not really

>>796041

You misspelled comunism

>>806413

>>>/trannypol/

Go there and stay there communist scum