/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>790582

Big hat bad

because russia threw a hissy fit and schismed over it

They simply consider that it is doctrinally wrong. The matters discussed were the filioque as a doctrine, the filioque in the creed, papal supremacy, azymes, and purgatory. At the council itself, the most difficult doctrines to discuss were the filioque as doctrine, and Purgatory.

Although all the Orthodox bishops present signed the union decree, this isn't everything. Mark of Ephesus and another bishop refused to agree to the council. And also, the Orthodox patriarchs didn't come to the council, but rather sent legates, except for the Ecumenical Patriarch (who died during the council anyway). As such it was needed that the council be adopted by the Orthodox bishops who didn't go, but, aside from a unionist party in Constantinople, this really didn't go well at all. It certainly didn't help that many of the bishops who agreed to the council retracted their approval when they returned home (on particular Gennadius Scholarios) and Mark of Ephesus rallied the population against the approval of the council (not that they were very hopeful about it to begin with).

Florence was not completely fruitless though. Eventually the union was proclaimed in Constantinople by the emperor and the Ecumenical Patriarch, but this didn't erase the anti-unionist party, and this only lasted for 4 months before the city fell for good. The council of Florence has been used as the basis of union with the Orthodox churches that became Eastern Catholic too.

On the matter of doctrine… Catholics believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, Orthodox believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Catholics believe the filioque in the creed was recognized lawfully by the Pope, Orthodox believe only an ecumenical council has that authority. Catholics believe the Pope is orthodox because he is the Vicar of Christ and therefore cannot teach falsehood, Orthodox believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ only if he is orthodox and therefore he can teach falsehood. Catholics believe both leavened and unleavened bread may be used for the Eucharist, Orthodox believe that only leavened bread can be used. Catholics believe that souls which have no mortal sin but have venial sin or worldly attachment go to Purgatory where they are made perfect before they can enter Heaven through our intercessions for them, Orthodox believe that such souls go to Hell and can be delivered through our intercessions.

It was a council based on threats and fear. Many bishops who went there with the best of intentions, like Mark of Ephesus, were dissapointed with what a fiasco it turned out to be (they were forcing the bishops and the emperor to kiss the Pope's feet etc). The emperor was desperate for military help and tried to force the union anyway but the people saw it as a betrayal and for good reason.

Oh look another anti-Orthodox thread

>>790612

>they were forcing the bishops and the emperor to kiss the Pope's feet etc

The Ecumenical Patriarch protested against this and got to greet the Pope in the Orthodox way, with a brotherly kiss, although behind closed doors.

While military threat may have been one of the motivating factors, I think it's obvious from the council acts that the Orthodox side really did come to agree with the Catholics (except for some things that are blatant examples of pandering - like how the Orthodox claimed that they agree with the Catholics that the words of institution are when the Eucharist is transformed, and even said that the epiklesis was only about the faithful and not about the gifts).

>>790618

In my understanding, sometimes the way things are done are more important than the actions themselves. Orthodox protest the way the filioque was added to the creed more than the addition per se. Similarly, a unification under the fear of the Ottomans was hard to take root, all the more so since the Ottomans prevailed afterall. With only some informal, bilateral talks and some actions of good will the last few decades there has been more progress to Catholic/Orthodox relations than a forced council would ever have.

>>790628

I agree with you. However, modern scholarship has also been very helpful, especially regarding knowledge of which documents were and weren't forgeries.

>>790582

The bishops that signed EXPLICITLY said it needed to be ratified back home, or else its wont be valid on their side.

Said ratification never came.

Simple as that.

>>790582

'Better the Turkish Turban than the Papal Tiara’ - Loukas Notaras