ed2961 No.790479
I'm new at christianity. Is the only difference, that the catholics have a pope and the protestans don't?
9e4c09 No.790483
Okay everyone let's try to keep it civil for our new friend here.
Yes Catholics believe Jesus appointed St. Peter as the leader of His Holy Church while Protestants don't. Catholics also believe that there is a communion of saints in heaven that can hear our prayers and pray with us. Like one big family. Catholics believe that Jesus instituted the Eucharist (the bread and wine). We take it in memory of Him.
As for Protestants, I am not one but as far as I know their "dogma" can varry from denomination to denomination.
I'm sure I missed other differences but those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head.
210921 No.790492
The difference is in the gospel. Protestants believe in justification by faith alone, and Catholics believe their works of sacraments are contributory in earning salvation.
Luther called this the doctrine upon which the church stands or falls.
The heart of this Roman catholic position is the idea that Jesus gave special authority to Peter which was only preserved in the Roman church, and only the Roman church is guided by God.
Please watch this for the Protestant position of sola fide
https://youtu.be/KxMfhcmV4FA
There are a million other differences that are ancillary, and even differences among Roman catholic and between Protestant groups, but the gospel is the primary issue of Christianity.
>>790483
Every protestant, even Baptist, believes Jesus instituted the Lord's supper and we take it in memory of Him.
830176 No.790493
>>790492
Prots DONT EVEN AGREE ON SACRAMENTS
210921 No.790494
>>790493
Every Protestant agrees that sacraments are non-contributory towards salvation. That was the point of the Reformation. You are saved by faith alone.
f25855 No.790502
>>790494
>faith alone
That is quite odd. I remember seeing in the designated Baptist thread that if one doesn't do work they are not saved. Your people even berated a sodomite Baptist for having faith alone in Jesus and not repenting from his sin.
So do you guys believe in faith alone or works based salvation? I'm confused
190f13 No.790504
This thread will not go well.
Look into the Council of Trent, OP. It is a council where the Catholic faith was defined in response to Protestant doctrines, and therefore it is where Protestantism and Catholicism became strictly and finally separate.
Likewise, if you're curious about the Orthodox, look into the Council of Florence.
4df952 No.790505
>>790502
We believe in salvation by faith alone. After you profess to be saved, you will demonstrate it in works. If the works aren't present, we can surmise that this person was not saved like James 2 says. The works are not a basis for the salvation, they're evidence that salvation has taken place.
446b94 No.790507
>>790479
Catholics believe in a succession of "church fathers" whose teachings and commands have an apostle level of authority.
Protestants believe that there was not, and so basically only the stuff in the bible is authoritative.
There are other differences, like saints, what other works should be included in canon, etc.
Both (should) believe the other is doing what they think is right, but have gotten a bit lost.
>>790502
>repentance is a work
stop this
there's literally memes about this
fa70a5 No.790519
Protestants: left wing liberal
Catholics: right wing authoritative
Orthos: right wing liberal
???: left wing authoritative
4df952 No.790523
>>790519
I don't think so champ
f25855 No.790525
>>790505
So if I understand it correctly
>faith + works = salvation
No?
>>790507
How is repentance not a work?
4df952 No.790530
>>790525
No. You are saved by faith alone.
Both of your questions are answered here:
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
"Repentance" meaning faith is not a work, since we see that the Bible doesn't consider it one. Sometimes repentance also means turning from particular sins, which you could say is an effort, but really that's the absence of a negative work not the presence of a positive work.
a67041 No.790531
>>790505
>if the works aren't present
so then the faithful need works for salvation
4df952 No.790534
>>790531
Do you have reading comprehension?
The works are not a basis for the salvation, they're evidence that salvation has taken place.
a67041 No.790535
>>790533
so we can just ignore all the stuff Christ said about the Church with Cephas and the authority to loosen and bind, and just pay attention to who is most republican?
nice
a67041 No.790536
>>790534
>The works are not a basis for the salvation
yes they are, you just said they were. scripture also teaches that faith without works are dead.
ergo, faith with works is necessary with salvation.
4df952 No.790537
>>790535
You are such a weasel
a67041 No.790538
>>790537
hey, you're the one saying we should be Mormon
4df952 No.790539
>>790536
No, I didn't. Are you actually interested in understanding the position or is this just facebook comments to you?
fa70a5 No.790541
>>790533
>>790523
You theology is "I get to do whatever I want and the evil Nazi Pope can't do anything about it!"
You are liberals
a67041 No.790542
>>790539
>Are you actually interested in understanding the position
I understand the position, and it's a roundabout way of disregarding that faith with works is necessary for salvation. You must re-define what faith is, which is some pseudo-deterministic misreadings of Scripture.
One can have faith, and even be inspired to do good works, and ignore it! This is how one falls from Grace and into sin.
a67041 No.790545
>>790544
There is no moving goalposts here, I am critiquing your position. If faith without works is dead, then faith with works is alive. You deny that salvation is works based simply by the fact that all good Christians must realize this goodness is of them, but is of and by God, but this does not deny that works-based salvation is necessary for all the faithful.
Christ Himself warns us that the servant who is given a talent and gives nothing in return will be thrown out, while even one who gives merely 5 for 1, or 1 for 1, may be saved.
f25855 No.790549
>>790530
Okay, but if you are saved by faith alone why should anyone bother to repent?
Repentance doesn't mean faith, it means "to turn" as in turn twords God and away from your sins. You literally have to put in effort to stop sinning. If repentance from sin was as easy as you claim, why is there a NoFap thread pinned at the top of this board full of anons from all denoms struggling to repent from their sin?
a67041 No.790550
>>790549
The faith alone position is blown apart by the analogy of salvation as a foot-race, Christ's talents parable, and James' infinite prot-blasting "faith without works is dead".
They must innovate with a new works-denying theology that the Church has always repudiated.
830176 No.790551
>>790494
So much for LUTHERAN BAPTISMAL REGENERATION!
fa70a5 No.790553
>>790544
You think MY logic is flawed? Lmao.
This is what happens when, to you, religion is something you "choose." Protestantism is all about how an individual gets to personally interpret god's word, just like how every liberal thinks that gender is something they get to choose. There are 30,000 different flavors of Protestantism just like there are 30,000 different genders now. Meanwhile the Catholic Church is basically a monarchy and somehow we are liberal? Just lol at the cope.
4df952 No.790555
>>790549
>Okay, but if you are saved by faith alone why should anyone bother to repent?
Your question is exactly the topic of Romans 6
>Repentance doesn't mean faith, it means "to turn" as in turn towards God and away from your sins
It has both uses. Here's an article about it: https://www.gotquestions.org/repentance.html
>If repentance from sin was as easy as you claim
Not my claim at all. You can't turn from sin without the enabling of the holy spirit.
4df952 No.790556
>>790550
Where is the analogy of salvation as a foot race?
a67041 No.790557
>>790555
Being inspired by the Holy Spirit does not disqualify a work as a work, this is where your error begins.
>>790556
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize. So run that you may obtain. 25And every one that striveth for the mastery refraineth himself from all things. And they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible one. 26I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air. 27But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
How does St. Paul pursue the foot-race? How does he win the prize? Works!
4df952 No.790564
>>790557
1 Cor 9 is not speaking to Paul's earning of his salvation, but the attitude in which to live the Christian life by working for the Lord.
Like I have been continuously repeating, the works are the evidence of Christ in Him. They are not requirements to receive Christ, like the bible clearly states in Eph 2.
See 2 Cor 13
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
This is the same encouragement as in 1 Corinthians 9. If you are saved, show it in your actions. If you are unable to demonstrate your salvation, you fail the test and Jesus is not in you.
Your position sees James 2 as a contradiction with Ephesians 2, and just chooses James. My position reconciles the two, because all scripture is God breathed.
fa70a5 No.790567
4df952 No.790568
a67041 No.790569
>>790564
>1 Cor 9 is not speaking to Paul's earning of his salvation, but the attitude in which to live the Christian life by working for the Lord.
>lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
There's a contradiction between what you say and what St. Paul says here about being a "castaway".
>the works are the evidence of Christ in Him
Christ can still be in people, and the people can ignore it! This is where your error begins, again. How can one blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? It's in the Scriptures, and it is called the unforgivable sin.
>They are not requirements to receive Christ
It has nothing to do with requirements for Christ, it has to do with requirements for salvation. If you are given a talent, and give nothing in return, you will be thrown out. Faith without works is dead.
a67041 No.790570
>>790564
>My position reconciles the two,
Your position "reconciles" these two, and breaks apart everything else.
4df952 No.790572
>>790569
>Christ can still be in people, and the people can ignore it!
No he can't, that's the point of that phrase
"Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you [e]fail the test?"
KJV says "except ye be reprobates". If you don't have Christ in you, you are unsaved.
>It has nothing to do with requirements for Christ, it has to do with requirements for salvation
Receiving Christ and receiving salvation are the same event.
This is getting really pedantic. You're pretty clearly an ideologue and I'm not interesting in trying to persuade you further. I hope OP sees his question answered.
Feels good to be attacked for the gospel.
fa70a5 No.790573
>>790568
Because you don't care about the truth you care about being right.
a67041 No.790574
>>790564
Reconcile these two for me:
Acts 19
13Now some also of the Jewish exorcists, who went about, attempted to invoke over them that had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying: I conjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preacheth. 14And there were certain men, seven sons of Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, that did this. 15But the wicked spirit, answering, said to them: Jesus I know: and Paul I know. But who are you? 16And the man in whom the wicked spirit was, leaping upon them and mastering them both, prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
How could the Jewish exorcises fail against the demons? Simple. They lacked faith in Christ Jesus. Now, -how can Christ throw out even those who work exorcisms in His Name-?
You need faith to exorcise, and Christ says even some of these may be thrown out. He even says that these who required faith to exorcise in His name…He says that He never knew them.
a67041 No.790575
>>790572
>If you don't have Christ in you, you are unsaved.
Read >>790574
By even those with faith, they were rejected in Christ. Faith without works is truly dead.
>Receiving Christ and receiving salvation are the same event.
Going by Matthew 7:21, that's up to Christ to decide, not you.
>You're pretty clearly an ideologue and I'm not interesting in trying to persuade you further
I'm not stupid, I know you will not budge. This is for all the readers, that they may know you are a false teacher, and that they may know that works are necessary for salvation.
fa70a5 No.790576
>>790572
>Feels good to be attacked for the gospel
WEW. heretics, I swear
1e882d No.790657
>>790574
>Now, -how can Christ throw out even those who work exorcisms in His Name-?
Hebrews 6:4-6 talks about them. They tasted of the word of God and the powers of the world to come, but they rejected it instead of receiving it gladly such as those in Acts 2:41 or Acts 16:34.
>He even says that these who required faith to exorcise in His name…He says that He never knew them.
Yes, I agree. And not only that but they also tried to justify themselves by their works.
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
b81a6d No.790697
>>790479 (OP)
A very important, fundamental difference is the very different understanding of what "the Church" means: we believe it to be a society founded, sustained and given special authority by Christ, present and visible throughout history, from times of first Christians to this day as the Catholic Church, Protestants don't. I suggest you to read the following article for a good dose of information on the nature of the Church:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
184458 No.790702
>>790479
Stirring the stew, who are you, 0P? Not a single response yet? You have two human bots and one robot bot all worked up.
d45f58 No.790705
>>790541
That's not true. My theology is the Gospel, and I do not recognize any so-called papal authority.
b1b81d No.790734
>>790705
Right, because that's nowhere in scripture. So many people are in rebellion against God's eternal word and according to John 12:48 it shall be their final judge.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
- Mark 7:8-13.
c96948 No.790766
>>790734
Or I should say the same shall be their final judge.
074ab7 No.790810
>>790492
>Luther called this the doctrine upon which the church stands or falls.
I think this was a practical statement, as sola fide was their strongest spiritual weapon against the church, but theologically speaking Luther didn't actually care all that much about sola fide.
Personally if I was debating a protestant I wouldn't even bother trying to show inconsistencies with the things that establish sola fide - there are no internal contradictions in sola fide, if there were any there would be no reformation.
It's better to focus on external contradictions like how John 3:5 suggests baptism justifies you, and of course if baptism justifies you then the whole reformation is a sham.
ba65b4 No.790828
>>790810
You realize the vulgate altered John 3:5 to say "born again" when in reality he says "born." Because the first birth is the flesh by water and then you are born again the second time unto the spirit. That's when you get saved. There's nothing about baptism in that passage.
a67041 No.790917
>>790657
>they tasted of the word of God and the powers of the world to come, but they rejected it instead of receiving it
Wrong, "23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
It becomes apparent that your teaching contradicts Christ, for He literally proclaims "I never knew you". How could someone "taste" and then Christ deny that He EVER knew them?
It's simple, exorcisms are not a work of the Spirit, they are a work of Faith in the Name of God. If they were a work of the Spirit, then how could Christ ever reject them saying "I never knew you"?
Obviously, Faith alone cannot suffice in the eyes of Our Lord.
>. And not only that but they also tried to justify themselves by their works.
They were rejected because they were workers of iniquity, despite their faith.
Once again, we can only affirm that Faith Alone is not sufficient.
>>790734
>>790705
Judge me and Bless me.
>>790830
Faith comes first, and then comes works. Faith alone is not enough.
b1047b No.790948
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>790830
This is totally ignorant and wrong
For Catholics we are saved by sanctifying Grace, the divine indwelling of the Holy Trinity.
This is given by baptism, lost through mortal sin, and restored through confession or perfect acts of contrition.
It's fairly simple I have no idea how people misrepresent it so badly.
the thing with St. Dismas isn't some vauge thing, it's baptism of desire, where he is extraordinarily infused with sanctifying Grace before death.
Faith is part of sanctifying Grace, it's an infused theological virtue given by baptism and can be maintained and developed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggm_dMae8io (great lecture of the theological virtue of faith)
You cannot in any way describe the Catholic view of salvation using prot vocabulary, it just doesn't work.
f92fc3 No.790965
>>790702
Sorry. I had work to do, and couldn't answer.
Sorry for the bad english I'm not a native english speaker.
9e4c09 No.791014
>>790830
Thats literally works based salvation
4df952 No.791018
>>790830
Hey I'm glad you're using my chart and defending sola fide.
I made that in 2 seconds weeks ago in a thread asking catholics if it was an accurate portrayal of their position, but I never got a real response.
If any catholic can share how it might be inaccurate from Catholic sources it would be worth making a new one.
>>790948
This "prot vocabulary" is straight from the Bible, friend.
ebf063 No.791095
The Reformed truly believe in God's grace and heavenly adoption, while Papists see them as more as spiritual crutches.
f243e0 No.791119
I'm not even going to look at this thread because the same content is in at least a dozen other threads.
I don't know if you meant to bait, OP, but you baited.
f92fc3 No.791120
1f22c3 No.792497
>>791120
>Anime picture
>Only two posts in the thread
No you're not. Leave and never return.