/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>789119

We still have Tridentine Latin Mass. Secular government and those that gave them the power to secularize is to blame for purposefully dumbing down the laity by removing greek and latin from school curriculum.

>>789119

You do realize that when the Latin Mass was written, it literally was the vernacular, right? Everyone spoke it and understood it. Keeping Mass in a language nobody speaks or understands is keeping Mass distant from the people, which is not the purpose of Mass.

On the one hand it's good for people to understand what's being said, but you can achieve that through education.

The biggest problem is that before V2 you had one mass throughout the world. You could go to any country and it's the same mass, and you could participate. There was communion. That has been lost.

>>789184

The Latin Mass was implemented in 1570. So it wasn't always the same. things change, yo.

>>789119

Latin should be a popular language.

>>789190

Pope Pius XI (Officiorum Omnium, 1922): "The Church - precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time - of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."

Pope Pius XII (Mediator Dei): "The use of the Latin language affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruption of true doctrine."

Pope Paul VI (encyclical Sacrificium Laudis, 1966): "The Latin language is assuredly worthy of being defended with great care instead of being scorned; for the Latin Church it is the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety. We must not hold in low esteem these traditions of our fathers which were our glory for centuries."

http://www.tldm.org/News5/latin.htm

>>789223

Well, you got your work cut out for you is you want that again. Popular languages come through imperialism (cultural/economical/military/all of the above). It'll take a lot more than some minority in the Church. You'll need every shopkeeper, trader, and a giant army to stomp all over people to help you.. most of whom wouldn't care about the Church.

Anyhow, that's English now. One day it will die too.

>>789119

The problem is not that they translated the mass into vernacular languages, they invented an entirely new crypto-Protestant mass which is horrible and ugly. The novus ordo is not a vernacular translation of the true mass.

>>789243

the only true Mass is that which has a licit apostolic Priest, and if it be canonized it is licit (so, in other words, every Mass the Church endorses)

TLM wasn't finalized until the 13th century

>>789119

Wait, are there really christanons here who don't speak Latin ?

>>789398

>Why can't the Catholic Church have something like this?

We've had it for centuries now, it's called a "missal".

It's fine. The predisposition of the celebrants and congregants does far more to "colour" the Mass than the language or position of the altar. You can have a reverent, serious yet uplifting New Rite Mass, and you can have a sad, miserable, insulting Old Rite Mass. It changes things as cutting your sandwich diagonally or horizontally changes the taste, i.e., not at all.

>>789398

>>789401

(Before I start let me say that, overall, I've come to realize the flaws in the Novus Ordo and have started periodically attending a TLM parish.) I grew up in a NO parish that was really poorly constructed in an ecclesial sense (i.e. Tabernacle off to the side, "presider's chair" at the center behind the alter and flanked by two seats for alter servers, didn't even have kneelers in the pews, etc.) When I was in middle/high school we had a more conservative pastor take the reigns and he helped to direct the already planned renovations to the main church, which were not perfect, but defiantly a net positive. However as part of the church's renovation, a series of cameras, projectors, and flat-screens were installed. Thus, from then on, not only was the mass projected on these screens, but prayers, hymn lyrics, readings, and the general order of the mass was replaced by a slideshow (or superimposed on the captured video). As a result, even though the parish still got paperback missals (at least until recently), said missals were not distributed to the pews. Now this wouldn't be as much of a problem, except that idk if there has been a week that goes by without the slideshow having some kind of error or the poor sucker controlling it screws up somehow. Not only has it been distracting from the worship of our LORD, but it has also been disastrous because parishioners who've said the NO mass for most of if not the entirety of their lives suddenly can't remember the words or correct order because they've grown so accustomed to this accursed slideshow. Things have gotten out of hand that I've heard of an incident from my relatives that still attend in which the order of the Creed was winnie'd so practically the entire parish was saying it wrong. Naturally, this completely blindsided our pastor, who at that point had been saying mass for over 50 years, to the point that (if I recall) at least one of the ExO ministers ran over to him because they thought he was struck with some kind of episode of illness. All this because some boomers wanted save paper and bring the parish into the current year. All of this is to say, if your NO parish is considering projectors, Don't. And if your parish is NO, Don't.

>>791673

>Nope, the bulk of the TLM goes all the way back to the St. Peter.

substantiate

> but don't try to pretend that's /anything/ like the Novus Ordo changes you slimy, disingenuous little Jew.

I'm Catholic, brother.

>Enjoy your table courtesy of Thomas Cranmer.

so there were no tables at the Last Supper, brother?

>>789119

I think so, the divine service should be able to be Inculterated, Christianity isn't Roman or Byzantine, otherwise it destroys local customs.

>>791675

So you think the Church somehow failed to realize the necessity for a table for 1960 years and then finally realized that the Protestants had it right all along?

Newsflash Mr. "Catholic" (I don't believe you btw) the mass is the repetition of the sacrifice of Christ by Himself to Himself on Calvary, not the repetition of the Last Supper.

>>791680

>So you think the Church somehow failed to realize the necessity for a table for 1960 years

no

> and then finally realized that the Protestants had it right all along?

no, but Brother, where did I say any of these things?

>Newsflash Mr. "Catholic" (I don't believe you btw) the mass is the repetition of the sacrifice of Christ by Himself to Himself on Calvary, not the repetition of the Last Supper.

It is both a re-presentation of Calvary, and a repetition of the Last Supper. I believe I am Catholic, because I am in full communion with the Seat of St. Peter, are you?

You don't sound like it…

>>791681

>It is both a re-presentation of Calvary

No, it is not a "re-presentation" it /literally is/ the same sacrifice.

> a repetition of the Last Supper.

No, it is not, the only relevance of the Last Supper is that that is where Jesus instituted the sacrament of Communion. The sacrament of Communion is not reinstituted every time mass is celebrated.

winnie the pooh off heretic.

>>791684

>No, it is not a "re-presentation" it /literally is/ the same sacrifice.

Which is the same thing, lest the Protestants accusation of "re-sacrificing" Christ is true. Once again, try substantiating yourself.

>No, it is not, the only relevance of the Last Supper is that that is where Jesus instituted the sacrament of Communion.

so you admit that the Last Supper (table included) is the institution of the Eucharist, but attack the true Church and St. Peter's Seat for incorporating a table (or something) in a similar manner to the Last Supper?

You make many claims, are you with the Church or not?

>>791687

>Which is the same thing, lest the Protestants accusation of "re-sacrificing" Christ is true. Once again, try substantiating yourself.

You're spouting literal heresy right now.

>

so you admit that the Last Supper (table included) is the institution of the Eucharist, but attack the true Church and St. Peter's Seat for incorporating a table (or something) in a similar manner to the Last Supper?

So you're just dodging the fact that you claimed the mass is a repetition of the Last Supper? You need to repent of your heresy right now before we continue any sort of discussion. Heresy through ignorance remains heresy and if you actually are Catholic you are obliged to repent right now.

>>791688

>You're spouting literal heresy right now.

prove it

>So you're just dodging the fact that you claimed the mass is a repetition of the Last Supper?

It is a re-presentation of the Sacrifice, and a repetition of the Last Supper in the very fashion that Christ instituted it. Where is the heresy, brother?

>Heresy through ignorance remains heresy and if you actually are Catholic you are obliged to repent right now.

If you're not a troll you should be extremely wary.

>>791904

>prove it

What do you mean "prove it"? Open a catechism.

http://www.catholicsociety.com/documents/Catechism_of_the_Council%20of_Trent.pdf

>We therefore confess that the Sacrifice of the Mass is and ought to be considered one and the same Sacrifice as that of the cross, for the victim is one and the same, namely, Christ our Lord, who offered Himself, once only, a bloody Sacrifice on the altar of the cross.

This will be my last reply until you repent of your heresy. Fear for your soul.

>>789119

They were completely right to translate it to popular languages- God intended for us to be able to have access to His word, and this allowed for that to happen.

>>791924

Are you implying that mass is for giving people access to God's word? Because that's heretical. The mass has only one purpose, which is to perform the sacrifice of Christ in an unbloody manner.

>>791916

I never denied that it was a re-presentation of the Sacrifice, quit reviling me without cause.

>>789184

>>789224

So I guess the Eastern churches didn't count?

Should've kept the Mass in Latin for France, Spain, Italy, etc. but put it in the vernacular for countries that don't use a Latin language.