/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>because it does seem odd that any entity would be capable of judgement above God

God alone holds judgement. The accusation of the demons is not fair or even truthful. Nonetheless, to abandon us to the demons is God's punishment, if we have remained their slaves during our life.

>and it just sounds like another form of purgatory tbqh

Purgatory is after the particular judgement: those who are saved but are not perfect yet (because of having venial sins or worldly attachment) must go through purgation before they can enter Heaven. The aerial toll houses are about the particular judgement itself: those who fail at any of the toll houses are dragged into Hell, those who pass through all of them have conquered the demons and can be with Christ.

>but then I'm left confused as to why it's been defended by so many people

Some defend the teaching against those who (wrongfully, in my opinion) attack it as being a gnostic heresy that crept into the Church. Some defend the teaching wrongfully though, by proclaiming it as dogma and accusing of heresy anyone who does not hold to it (or even those who hold to it but not in the very detailed form that can be found in the teachings of some saints).

>Pic related is supposedly a huge tome defending the tollhouse theory for example, so I have no idea what's going on.

It's not an amazing book. For a good chunk of it, references to angels and demons fighting for our soul when we die, and references to the demons dwelling in the air, are automatically taken as proof of the toll houses. Some of the content is outright false as well - for instance, the homily of Cyril of Alexandria that is cited as describing the toll houses is in fact a forgery.

Honestly it was a big waste of money from my part, and I strongly regret buying it.

>>788538

>For a good chunk of it, references to angels and demons fighting for our soul when we die

Interesting. I've heard similar ideas, but about angels/demons trying to persuade you right before you die, not after. Bit disappointing if that's really all there is justifying the tollhouse vision though.

>Honestly it was a big waste of money from my part, and I strongly regret buying it.

Good to know. I was considering getting it for a minute there, so thanks for the input.

The best argument is that the councils specifically left out details of the afterlife and it was one of the few subjects many fathers could discuss with (in the spirit of love, of course) a difference of opinion. Insisting on one truth where ecumenical councils haven't isn't exactly loving. The Church has never had a bonafide revelation on this, so I don't know anyone keeps trying to push extra revelation or implicit revelation as if it were all explicit.

This goes for the RCC concept of purgatory too btw. Look what happened when speculation became an essential point in their faith. It pretty much led to splitting the church in the West (not entirely.. but indulgences were a big part of Luther's grief. Although he had many errors of his own).

Personally, I've always been fond of St. Macrina's teaching to her brother, as she lie on her deathbed. She didn't have a detailed theology, but as she told her brother to not grieve for her, she explained that our lives are like a man who built a house. In the "houses" of our lives, our concerns in this life are akin to furnishings and construction of our house. At death, that house comes crashing down on us - if we were too concerned about the trappings of this world, much of those furnishings will fall on top of our heads, trapping and lodging us. At death, the Lord comes to each of our houses and pulls us out. For some, it'll seem absolutely unbearable, depending on how trapped we are or what's lodged in our bodies. For others who abandoned this world, it'll be like nothing fell on top at all, and they eagerly wait the Lord rather than have attachments to this world causing us the pain to transition.

I don't know where St. Macrina learned this, but it's helpful teaching at the very least. It's in line with the gospel that we must die to the world in the here and now and be reborn in the Spirit of God. I can take enough wisdom from this. I don't need more details.

>>788531

how do you prove something that has no bearing on reason? quote the bible, church fathers and councils

>>788531

Why do Americans freak out so much with stuff like that? Tollhouses were demons at folk stories in Greece that would try to take your soul after you die according to your sins. They also said that ravens would gather outside of the house of someone who's dying and the exact time of his death they would fly away, if they would leave quietly then his soul was safe but if they leave crowing loudly it means that his soul was taken by the tollhouses. It's like the popular belief that your life passes in front of your eyes before you die. It was probably a parable started by monks that became a folk story by the people. I've seen Americans debating them while others try to compare them with Purgatory for Christ's sake and it triggers me. It's neither a theory nor theology, it's a folk tale.

>>788598

well, that's good background to know, but obviously something got lost in translation somewhere down the line, where we have some monks treating this as actual theology now. I'm not so much freaked out by it as I am curious about how the whole thing managed to gain legitimacy in the first place.

>>788598

It's absolutely a theological doctrine. It's in iconography, it's in my catechism, there's no reason to say it's just a "folk tale". You're exactly like those who pretend to be Orthodox and accuse us of being gnostics for believing in it.

I'd call it a theologoumenon though. Saints have believed and taught it, and it can be found in catechisms, but at the same time it's not so important that we would have a feast day about it, or that a council would have defined it, and it's definitely not important enough that the Bible would explicitly talk about it.

Nonetheless I firmly believe it, because that is what I was taught.

>>788606

>i believe that demons are trying to take away your soul starting from this life and i think that's more theologicaly accurate.

What the toll houses mean is that this continues to be true after our death up to the particular judgement. The judgement for Orthodox Christians isn't immediate, or rather it takes the form of the toll houses. Of course, those who are not Orthodox immediately go to Hell.

>>788646

>It's absolutely a theological doctrine. It's in iconography, it's in my catechism

Iconography and catechisms are not always normative. Councils are. Otherwise, it's just local council at best.. and folk tale at worst. And icons don't always mean something good. There are non-traditional icons of depictions of the Father and the "all seeing eye" that don't belong in the Church either. Yet people are defiant and promote strange things anyhow.

And by folk tale he means things that can be traced to Greek and Roman beliefs specifically, and nothing to do with Christ and his church. Or the Jews before. It's the same kind of initiation that was pushed in Mithraism!! Toll Gates and Labyrinthine like challenges (like the famous Minos tale) were common in that world. Except this is another initiation rite only applied to the intermediary state after death (funnily, Origen mentioned some who still believed in these Mithraic ideas in his own day.. and he condemned it! And he's considered a heretic, yet he isn't even this silly).

It's also further a "folk tale" even if we removed it from it's pagan roots.. Admittedly, it's not like Orthodox are consciously thinking of Hellenic or Roman culture when they believe this. But it still comes from something equally silly: "Babushka". Something pushed by women to their country bumpkin kids. And then some of these kids become monks, promoting their grandma's form of piety on to everyone. And worse, they lie and create false tales of saints to support their doctrine.. thinking a lie is a good thing if it's essentially based in the "truth" taught to them.

I'm not going to push Protestant "sola scriptura", but if people simply read scripture instead of listen to old women we'd all be better off. And like the anon above said: Worry about demons in the here or now. This here is our arena and proving ground, if anything.

>>788598

>Tollhouses were demons at folk stories in Greece that would try to take your soul after you die according to your sins. They also said that ravens would gather outside of the house of someone who's dying and the exact time of his death they would fly away, if they would leave quietly then his soul was safe but if they leave crowing loudly it means that his soul was taken by the tollhouses. It's like the popular belief that your life passes in front of your eyes before you die. It was probably a parable started by monks that became a folk story by the people. I've seen Americans debating them while others try to compare them with Purgatory for Christ's sake and it triggers me. It's neither a theory nor theology, it's a folk tale.

Do you have any hard evidence, via sources, of the toll houses being folk tales? Because right now, all we have is your word to go on.

>>789085

For now i have the Greek article in wikipedia. You can find more stories about them in literature and academic folklore. It's an oral tradition mostly so there're no sources in other languages. Idk if other balkan countries have similar stories.

Telonio literally means toll house, it's the personification of a demon that collects the sins usually. But telonia are also another name for small demons in general. Google translate it it's not that big.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A4%CE%B5%CE%BB%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%B1

>>789102

>>789104

Interestingly, most of these frescoes are used for the covers for the books that are against toll houses or similar concepts. One of them is used by Kalomiros too for his book "river of fire"

I was (and still am to be honest) opposed to the concept, but I mostly think now that problem is less in the theory and more in its literal/simple minded and materialized understanding. Though in general I think that this teaching nowadays does more harm than good, considering how it affects people who are motivated not because of God but because of demons and its very culture-specific (ex: reason for why demons are described as tax-collectors, was because in ancient times they were considered to be greedy and petty subhumans. The analogy mostly flies over head in modern times) and primitive descriptions. And I dont really think that anything of value would be lost if people would stop emphasizing on it, since it also largely diverts attention from far more important concepts, such a Theosis.

Also, I found this link about it https://www.patristics.co/aerial-toll-houses/ I hope it will be of some use.