/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

We don't need to know anything other than the bad fruit it produces. Just like you don't need to be a botanist to know a dead plant. If it doesn't spawn cults, then it spawns autistic Judaizers.

>>785054

at least try to be something besides a dime-a-dozen judaizing heretical cult mate

>>785056

>judaizer judaizer judaizer REEEEEEE one more time

For this sort of thing I made this thread.

If you're Catholic, do you like to be called pagan?

If you are a Protestant, do you like to be called a sect?

It's the same, stop talking foolishness.

>>785058

>it's the same thing

Autofix'd.

>>785054

>posting Luther

Kek he would hate SDAs

>>785052

Did you post this thread as well >>784947? Only reason I ask is because the followers of Baha'i believe that William Miller was correct in his predictions about the return of Jesus in 1844, coinciding with the emergence of the Bab (promised one) of Baha'i faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment#Connection_to_the_Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith

>>785058

If you don’t like being called a judaizer stop judaizing.

>>785063

No, in addition to the fact that Adventists do not believe that Miller was exactly right with the advent of Christ in 1844, they believe that Miller misinterpreted what event would happen in that year.

>>785064

Then stop being a pagan/sectarian.

>>785066

>.t a sectarian that is a part of a judaizing cult

Repent, judaizer.

>>785052

Do you accept Nicene Creed or do you have objection to it? By you I mean all the SDA church, not you personally.

>>785052

My prejudice comes from reading Galatians.

What did the Reformers believe?

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/2007/t/when-the-world-wonders.aspx

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

On Martin Luther of the Reformation:

"That was his original complaint with the Church. But when the Church did not listen, he came reluctantly to the conclusion that the Church, especially the office of the papacy, was the Antichrist, and that what it was doing was deliberate. It was the devil's attempt to subvert, to submerge the good news, the gospel. The devil was working within the Church. And once he was convinced that that was happening, the papal office was the office of the Antichrist, and he saw the end time near. …"

Read more: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/martinluther.html#ixzz1S2DI1JzG

Martin Luther:

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist…personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom.

(In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false… It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein… Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." –D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.

"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt… I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thessalonians 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." - Institutes by John Calvin

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NIV) "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NIV) "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."

Matthew 24:5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."

Catholic National July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." - "The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIIII," Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894.

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." - New York Catholic Catechism

John 10:33 For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God

“That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history.” — W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, (reprint: New York: Braziller, 1955), Vol. 2, pp. 40-45.

Dr. J. Dowling, History of Romanism, pages 541-542, states: "From the birth of Popery in 606, to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand murders for every year of the existence of Popery."

>>785111

Daniel 7:25 (DRA) And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 13

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

"It is within the city of Rome, called The City on Seven Hills, that the entire area of Vatican State Proper is now confined" The Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 529.

Ezekiel 4:6 "I have appointed thee each day for a year…"

Numbers 14:34 it says, "…After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." (1 time = 1 Biblical year = 360 days. 360 + 720 + 180 = 1,260 prophetic days = 1,260 literal years

Revelation 12:6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (1,260 prophetic days = 1,260 literal years)

Revelation 13:5, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (42 Biblical months X 30 = 1,260 prophetic days = 1,260 literal years)

"Vigilius…ascended the papal chair (538 A.D.) under the military protection of Belisarius." History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 327

"In 1798 General Berthier made his entrance into Rome, abolished the papal government, and established a secular one." -Encyclopedia Britannica 1941 edition

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

538 AD - 1798 AD = 1,260 years

Cranmer had three more days to live. He was told that he would be able to make a final recantation but this time in public during a service at the University Church. He wrote and submitted the speech in advance and it was published after his death. At the pulpit on the day of his execution, he opened with a prayer and an exhortation to obey the king and queen, but he ended his sermon totally unexpectedly, deviating from the prepared script. He renounced the recantations that he had written or signed with his own hand since his degradation and as such he stated his hand would be punished by being burnt first. He then said, "And as for the pope, I refuse him, as Christ's enemy, and Antichrist with all his false doctrine."[96] He was pulled from the pulpit and taken to where Latimer and Ridley had been burnt six months before. As the flames drew around him, he fulfilled his promise by placing his right hand into the heart of the fire and his dying words were, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit… I see the heavens open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cranmer

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/c/2/Total_Onslaught_-_English/

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/116/204-the-mists-of-time/

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/588/931-the-twin-pillars-of-the-reformation/

>>785071

>.t don't even know what bein a judaizer means

>>785080

>that pic

(citation needed).

If the position of the SDA is correct or not in relation to abortion, that is debatable, and don't come to me to say that here everyone has a completely negative position to it, this very week you were discussing whether it is correct to keep alive a child with severe deficiencies that would simply transform his life into a hell.

>>785102

The belief in the trinity, as described in the nicene creed, is among the fundamental beliefs of the Adventist Church.

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

>>785116

>being

Autofix'd, again.

http://www.ellenwhite.info/books/ellen-g-white-book-great-controversy-gc-contents.htm

Table of Contents

Author's Introduction [p. v]

1. The Destruction of Jerusalem [p. 17]

2. Persecution in the First Centuries [p. 39]

3. An Era of Spiritual Darkness . [p. 49]

4. The Waldenses [p. 61]

5. John Wycliffe [p. 79]

6. Huss and Jerome [p. 97]

7. Luther's Separation From Rome [p. 120]

8. Luther Before the Diet [p. 145]

9. The Swiss Reformer [p. 171]

10. Progress of Reform in Germany [p. 185]

11. Protest of the Princes [p. 197]

12. The French Reformation [p. 211]

13. The Netherlands and Scandinavia [p. 237]

14. Later English Reformers [p. 245]

15. The Bible and the French Revolution [p. 265]

16. The Pilgrim Fathers [p. 289]

17. Heralds of the Morning [p. 299]

18. An American Reformer [p. 317]

19. Light Through Darkness [p. 343]

20. A Great Religious Awakening [p. 355]

21. A Warning Rejected [p. 375]

22. Prophecies Fulfilled [p. 391]

23. What Is the Sanctuary? [p. 409]

24. In the Holy of Holies [p. 423]

25. God's Law Immutable [p. 433]

26. A Work of Reform [p. 451]

27. Modern Revivals [p. 461]

28. Facing Life's Record [p. 479]

29. The Origin of Evil [p. 492]

30. Enmity Between Man and Satan [p. 505]

31. Agency of Evil Spirits [p. 511]

32. Snares of Satan [p. 518]

33. The First Great Deception [p. 531]

34. Can Our Dead Speak to Us? [p. 551]

35. Liberty of Conscience Threatened [p. 563]

36. The Impending Conflict [p. 582]

37. The Scriptures a Safeguard [p. 593]

38. The Final Warning [p. 603]

39. The Time of Trouble [p. 613]

40. God's People Delivered [p. 635]

41. Desolation of the Earth [p. 653]

42. The Controversy Ended [p. 662]

Appendix [p. 679]

>>785118

Is this a bot?

>>785108

This, OP makes risible suggestion

>>785116

if you’re not a judaizer then you believe that sunday is the sabbath

>>785124

No thank you, Im not a catholic.

>>785111

>>784112

>muh protestant shoah

>mih six gorililion persecuted by the ebil whore of babylon

I love how these people NEVER say a word about the orthodox church, many dont even know it's existence. Not being hostile to the orthodox, just mentioning that's pretty funny.

>>785130

False. Read, for example, the chapter 2 of The Great Controversy.

>>785116

>>785139

Well, i stand corrected. But all i see is this enmity against rome that goes on and on and on..the target is obviously the catholic church, and doesnt get the same attention as rome.

also >>785137 showcases the exact nature of this judaizing sect. It takes the blame from the real babylon that is referenced in rev. that is JERUSALEM, and putting in some vague connection with france. Also, dont know if you know that but: "which also emerged from several accounts in memoirs published over the following years by witnesses to the events at court, including two dramatic and influential accounts by members of the royal family that were not recognised as fake until the 19th century, those supposedly by Marguerite of Navarre,[59] and Anjou. Anjou's supposed account was the source of the quotation attributed to Charles IX: "Well then, so be it! Kill them! But kill them all! Don't leave a single one alive to reproach me!"[60]"

Also this is pretty interesting: The French 18th-century historian Louis-Pierre Anquetil, in his Esprit de la Ligue of 1767, was among the first to begin impartial historical investigation, emphasizing the lack of premeditation (before the attempt on Coligny) in the massacre and that Catholic mob violence had a history of uncontrollable escalation.[68] By this period the Massacre was being widely used by Voltaire (in his Henriade) and other Enlightenment writers in polemics against organized religion in general. The question of whether the massacre had long been premeditated was not entirely settled until the late 19th century; Lord Acton changed his mind on the matter twice, finally concluding that it was not.[69]

>>785138

Also the french revolution was the culmination of the spread of liberal ideas ( whose writers were blatanly anti-catholic, like Voltaire ) and the revolution was these ideas put into action. Even before the revolution, all parts of society were infected with these ideas, nobles, peasants, merchants and villains ( as expected ), the clergy and even the Royal family itself, which paid homage to enlightnment authors such as Rosseau, which was also anti-catholic. Also this narrative does not fit into reality, as thousands of people in France were angry at the newly born french republic because of anti-religious laws prohibiting mass and such. People rose up in rebellion to fight for their catholic faith, culminating in the Vendee uprising. This rebellion in particular does not fit in with this narrative, as they fought and died for their catholic faith and died as martyrs, nobles, clergy and peasant alike fought , and they were genocided. Just goes to see that the french revolution had no qualms of killing the people they very own swore to empower, but alas, the people were wanted their parishes and their priests. Not all people rebelled, as they were contamined by liberalism, but thousands of people also were martyred for their CATHOLIC faith, both in battle and in their homes.

>>785156

She still doesnt aknowledge jerusalem as babylon, as she rightfully was. Thus, in complete error

>>785052

Here is also a small article ( from a seventh-day adventist!! ) cointaning some examples of ellen g white's intelectual dishosnety: https://archive.org/details/W.S.PetersonATextualAndHistoricalStudyOfEllenG.WhitesAccountOf

>>785052

>female priests

>veregarianism and (((kosher))) dietary laws

>anihilationism

I don't think I'm misinformed, I just disagree with them.

>>785052

Thanks I needed the laugh

>>785242

We see jerusalem as the height of her power and influence in the roman empire, as the jews had a large control of money and usury in these times. Jerusalem was judged and destroyed by fire in 70 ad, for rejecting their messiah. Furthermore babylon is said to be city where the prophets were killed, the city where the Lord was crucified, or in other words, Jerusalem. Christ wasnt crucified in Rome or in France lmao

>>785273

>Jews were not powerful people in the 1st century

Yes, some were, were they not powerful, they could not have led a big rebellion against rome

>All of this victimhood

I'm not a expert of revelations or prophecy, but i will never buy into this victim narrative of "muh romish church" nonsense. Also revelations wasnt necesseraly written after the fall

>muh rome killed muh prophets ree

bias

>hebrews 6:6

Context. Revelation talks about a city in which Jesus was crucified literally. Not figuratevely as some retards ( ellen g white ) think it was. The only city in which jesus was crucified was in JERUSALEM. Also, the inquistion didn't have the power to kill anyone, that was the function of the state to deliver the punishment or lack of thereof, but of course ellen g white doesnt mention because she has a heavily biased view of history and cherrypicks the sources and passages that disagree with her. Nobody is going to buy into your judaizing nonsense so you might as well give up.

.>>785181

>female priests

We don't have any.

>veregarianism and (((kosher))) dietary laws

Just like Daniel. In addition, it is not obligatory to follow them strictly, they are tips to improve your personal health.

>anihilationism

Well, there's no problem disagreeing with that, it's just another point of view.

>>785164

https://www.wisensda.org/blog/2018/4/11/the-development-of-the-great-controversy-book

https://www.andrews.edu/~jmoon/Documents/GSEM_534/Class_outline/05b.pdf

Peterson doesn't have a good reputation for picking up sources properly. Some of his books even accuse Ellen White of plagiarizing books that hadn't even been released yet.

>>785143

Funny, most of the fonts this guy uses, I can't find them. If I look for them, I only get more videos of him. It seems to me that it is an American version of the Brazilian "Adventists.com", that only cherrypick sources that are favorable to them.

However, the OFFICIAL position of the Adventist Church is that abortion can only be done in extraordinary circumstances. Its position, moreover, is quite similar to that of the Orthodox Church, on abortion being permitted if the mother's life is endangered. In other respects, the Adventist Church remains neutral.

The Adventist Hospitals and the Adventist Church are separate institutions.

>>785285

>Only a Roman Catholic could see disastrously failed martial action as proof of strength

Im not roman catholic, and they did won some battles, but i digress

>Yes it is biased, but it's also true, and significantly less biased than

Not really, since those "martyrs" generally weren't real christians, some were gnostics, believed in reincarnation, some were revelutionaries and subversives, and were treated as such.

>It describes this city as "Sodom and Egypt", you sure you want to interpret it literally?

yes, spiritually sodom and egypt, he literally says that. However he doesn't say that jesus was crucified "spiritually"

>Yes they did and when they didn't they still had the power to make the state kill for them. It's a distinction without a difference.

Nope lol, they delilvered them to the state and they made the ultimatum, and most people weren't even killed lol, with actual historians saying in all the history of the inquisition, only 3000 people died ( in the hands of the state )

>When a suspect was convicted of unrepentant heresy, the inquisitorial tribunal was required by law to hand the person over to the secular authorities for final sentencing, at which point a magistrate would determine the penalty

see?

>I'm not an SDA and I'm not a judaizer. Polite sage since the discussion did not move very far forward

ok. this discussion is over

>>785297

>most of the sources this guy uses

Autofix'd².

>>785279

He was crucified in France in the person of His saints. His Flesh was burned and His blood spilled by the burning of His Eternal Word, and by the unspeakable bloodshed.

If Christ had returned to Sodom and Gomorrah, they would've repented in sackcloth and ashes. Maybe France would've too, but personally, I doubt it. Even the Jews, His own people, crucified Him. How much more an angry mob of Catholic Jesuit Frenchmen?

Matthew 11:20-24 KJV

(20)  Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

(21)  Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

(22)  But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

(23)  And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

(24)  But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:(Mat 25:34 KJV)

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:(Mat 25:35 KJV)

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.(Mat 25:36 KJV)

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?(Mat 25:37 KJV)

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?(Mat 25:38 KJV)

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?(Mat 25:39 KJV)

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.(Mat 25:40 KJV)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:(Mat 25:41 KJV)

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:

I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:(Mat 25:42 KJV)

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.(Mat 25:43 KJV)

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?(Mat 25:44 KJV)

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.(Mat 25:45 KJV)

—

Act 9:4-5 KJV

(4)  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

(5)  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

>>785279

>>785302

>What in the world are you talking about?

the albigensians believed in a demiurge ( god that created the world was evil ) and that there was a good god that was jesus. This is a gnostic concept. These cathars killed pregnant women, were against reproduction and marriage, and favored suicide.

>>785305

>nice interpretation but i don't buy it. spitititual Sodom and gomorrah is the city where jesus was crucified, jerusalem was the city in which jesus was crucified, ergo, jerusalem is spiritual sodom and gomorrah

>>785309

*didnt meant to greentext

>>785309

I appreciate the compliment.

Who are the Two Witnesses?

Revelation 11:1-14 KJV

(1)  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

(2)  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

(3)  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

(4)  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

(5)  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

(6)  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

(7)  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

(8)  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(9)  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

(10)  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

(11)  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

(12)  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

(13)  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

(14)  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

>>785303

>mangle God's commandments

Funny to hear that from a Catholic.

>Infanticide is not allowed under ANY circumstances.

It seems that you never read about the wars that the people of Israel fought, where they should kill everyone, regardless of age or sex.

We're not at war and we don't have societies as degenerate as the Canaanites, but that your argument that abortion is not allowed under ANY circumstances is already broken.

Anyway, I am not in favor of abortion under any circumstances, and that the Church is neutral on the subject is favorable to me, because anyway, the great Adventist majority is against it, with a few exceptions.

>>785311

(1) How do you "measure the temple of God"? How do you measure the altar, and measure "them that worship therein"? How do you measure a man?

(2) The court given to the Gentiles however is left out. And they shall tread the holy city under their feet for 42 months. (42 x 30 days in a Jewish Calender = 1,260 prophetic days or 1,260 literal years.)

Num_14:34  After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Eze_4:6  And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

(3) 1,260 days = 1,260 years

(4) 2 Olive Trees. 2 Candlesticks.

Zec 4:11  Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 

Zec 4:12  And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 

Zec 4:13  And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 

Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. 

Zec 4:2-6 KJV

(2)  And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

(3)  And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

(4)  So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

(5)  Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

(6)  Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 

…

Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 

>>785271

>>785265

So, is anyone gonna answer me on how non-catholics were chilling just fine across the Old World, outside the West Med., not looking anything like SDA, or are we gonna continue on how the history of Christendom consists of a bunch of weird underground peasants that no one knows about, getting purged in a 200km circle around the French Riviera for millenia, sourced by the finest anti-catholic dribble the 18th century can offer?

>>785321

God's followers were never too numerous, except perhaps to the people of Israel in the days of Moses and Joshua. In The Great Controversy he makes it clear that God's people are a remanescent people.

In the time of the Kings of Judah, we had Elijah and the few prophets, plus all those few who remained faithful to God in the time of the Jewish apostasy. In the NT, we have Christians against all Judaism and Paganism.

God's people were always a small people fighting against the majority.

>>785306

The Albigensians were there not to serve as a doctrinal example, but to point to some of the pioneers who fought for religious freedom and for the advance of the Protestant reform. You may notice that the text on the Albigensians is quite short compared to what the other reformists receive.

>>785321

Acts 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 

Dan 12:3  And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

Dan 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 

Pro 4:18  But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 

Pro_24:5  A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

>Knowledge and light and shining more and more until all the events of the Book of Revelation are fulfilled in our very near future.

Isa 58:12  And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. 

Isa 58:13  If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 

Isa 58:14  Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 

>There has been a major breach of the Fourth Commandment, of the Sabbath created by the LORD Jesus Christ. He commands the 7th Day, but the man honors "Sun"-day, the 1st day, the venerable day of the Sun, a pagan tradition adopted and first enforced by a Roman emperor that became the start of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Messages of the Three Angels

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 

Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 

Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 

Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 

Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 

>He that hath ears let him hear. These are the words of the Three Angels. This is what must come to pass. The time is hand. Behold, he comes quickly. May God help us. Amen.

>>785330

Paulo talks about sabbatical days, i.e. festive sabbaths. Stop being dishonest, read the context.

>>785325

just for curiosity, what other reformers does she speak of?

>>785330

God's Law Immutable

http://ellenwhite.info/books/ellen-g-white-book-great-controversy-gc-26.htm

>>785334

Wrong chapter 26 is A Work of Reform. This is God's Law Immutable.

http://ellenwhite.info/books/ellen-g-white-book-great-controversy-gc-25.htm

>>785332

If my memory doesn't fail me, it starts with the Waldenses, then goes through Wycliff, Huss and Jerome, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Wesley… And among these, she mentions many other reformists.

>>785330

Exo_24:12  And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Pro_7:2  Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Pro_10:8  The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

Ecc_12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Isa_48:18  O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Mat_5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat_19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:17  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 

Mar 10:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 

Mar 10:19  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 

Mar 10:20  And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 

Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 

Mar 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 

Mar 12:30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 

Mar 12:31  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 

1Jn_5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn_5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn_1:6  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev_12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev_22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Hebrews 4:1-13 KJV

(1)  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

(2)  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

(3)  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

(4)  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

(5)  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

(6)  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

(7)  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(8)  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

(9)  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

(10)  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

(11)  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

(12)  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(13)  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

>>785337

You're doing God's work here brother, thank you.

Matthew 5:17-48 KJV

(17)  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(18)  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

(19)  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(20)  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(21)  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

(22)  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

(23)  Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

(24)  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

(25)  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

(26)  Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

(27)  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

(28)  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

(29)  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

(30)  And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

(31)  It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

(32)  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

(33)  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

(34)  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

(35)  Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

(36)  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

(37)  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

(38)  Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

(39)  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

(40)  And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

(41)  And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

(42)  Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(43)  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

(44)  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

(45)  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

(46)  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

(47)  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

(48)  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

>>785345

Modern theologians use Paul’s writings in Colossians to criticize the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. In Colossians 2:11-17, Paul admonishes the followers of Christ not to have a religion of legalism. He refers to “the handwriting of ordinances” which were nailed to the cross, and finally admonishes the believers in this way:


So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ (Colossians 2:16-17 NKJV).

“The handwriting of ordinances” refers to the ceremonial law, which pointed to the ministry of Christ. It does not apply to the Ten Commandment law. Read about the difference between the laws

The sabbaths referred to in verse 16 are mentioned together with food, drink, and festivals, none of which occur in the Ten Commandments. Paul is stating here that the ceremonial law and all the special sabbaths find their fulfillment in Christ.

He also states in Ephesians 2:15, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” This law of ordinances was a “shadow of things to come” (Colossians 2:17), a symbolic representation of Christ's coming and return. Upon His death, Jesus fulfilled the first step of the sanctuary service—the sacrifice of the lamb to take away the sinner’s guilt.

Colossians 2:14 describes the handwriting of ordinances as being “against us” and “contrary to us.” Paul writes that Christ “took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” Many people say that this is the proof that the law of the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross, and it is no longer applicable to us. But careful reading shows that Colossians 2 is not discussing the Ten Commandment law at all. In Deuteronomy 31:24-26, we learn which book of the law was against us:

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark fo the covenant of the Lord saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God that it may be there for a witness against thee.

So it is the ceremonial law written by Moses, the very law contained handwriting of ordinances, that was against us. The Ten Commandments is never called a "law against us. It was always called the “perfect law of liberty” or even the "royal law" (James 1:25; 2:8-12). This law is also called just and good, pure, righteous, and perfect (Psalm 19:7,8; 119:172; Romans 7:12).

The ceremonial law or handwriting of ordinances pointed to a future event—the death of Christ—serving to remind people of their salvation only through the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. The Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is a memorial to Creation and redemption, and is not "a shadow of things to come."

-https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Sabbath_Colossians_ceremonial-law

>>785345

>No, Colossians 2:16-17 totally reproaches this judaizing doctrine.

Just saying "No" doesn't make your argument more valid.

>Also Ellen White was a annihilationist who denied hell and taught soul sleep.

Just as it should have been from the beginning. To believe the serpent's lie that there is an immortal soul is the greatest proof that there is paganism mixed with Catholic doctrines.

>>785351

Stop spamming this cult. Nobody cares about your manmade doctrines. You've been warned that you are teaching rejection of a part of Colossians.

>Many people say that this is the proof that the law of the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross, and it is no longer applicable to us

Didn't I just tell you that the fourth commandment is fulfilled by resting in Jesus Christ? why do you still deny this reality spoken of in the word of God? Why can't you address this? It's because you're spreading a cult meant to mislead others.

>>785352

>Just saying "No" doesn't make your argument more valid.

What about citing Colossians 2:16-17 then? It's like your blindness has extended even to your vision and you can't even see the words on the page where I quoted Colossians 2:16-17.

>To believe the serpent's lie that there is an immortal soul

Why are you spreading heresy now?

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. — Revelation 20:10

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. — Mark 9:43-44

>>785358

>Stop spamming this cult.

Stop spamming Colossians 2. The other Christanon already proved that your interpretation is wrong. There is nothing more to say about the issue.

>Why are you spreading heresy now?

I'm not the one spreading heresies around here.

>that two quotes.

I'm not sure if the other Christanon is going to post around here the explation for those verses. Either way, I'll leave this for here.

https://emmilglenn.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/tormented-day-and-night-forever/

https://www.adventistreview.org/2008-1515-14

>>785052

>Seventh-day Adventist Church

Luke Ford was raised in such a Church, and then he converted to Judaism.

>>785606

In other words, now parables are literally understood?

>>785597

Luther grew up Catholic.

>>785617

Who convinced you that an explicitly literal depiction of the afterlife is not explicitly literal?

>>785619

Who convinced you that's a post-life depiction?

>>785621

>>785606

Then, the souls all go to Abraham's gigantic bosom (which, of course, is big enough to embrace all the souls of the dead) and hell and heaven are so close that the souls in them can chat calmly from there.

>>785621

St. Luke the Evangelist convinced me. Do you think that because God lets Lazarus and the rich man talk across the impassable gulf, then the meaning of the parable must be thrown out? What could the parable depicting the state of souls after death mean of not the state of souls after death? What could a fire so hot that a man cries for just a drop of water mean? What could torment, in the rich man's words, mean? What metaphorical state could he be in that he is so desparate to save his children from?

>>785624

>What could the parable depicting the state of souls after death mean of not the state of souls after death

Read the entire chapter. Jesus, in the whole chapter, was counting parables where he condemned the gain and wickedness of the Pharisees.

The parable is basically an illustration of this other verse:

<6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Romans 2:6-8

https://adventistyouthministries.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=271:what-about-the-rich-man-lazarus-and-hell&catid=70:questions&Itemid=128

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/1196.2

http://www.adventistdefenseleague.com/2009/08/rich-man-and-lazarus-when-all-else.html

>>785627

>the greed and the wickedness

Autofix'd³

>>785627

The fact that it's a parable does not answer my questions, and neither does a series of articles that take issue with the amount of water asked for and see that as justification to state that fire is not fire. That's straining out a gnat to swallow a camel. Do you really expect me to believe, as that third article says, that Jesus would preach a confusing parable and clothe it in heresy for the sake of clarity, knowing that all but a small minority of his future followers would believe in the immortality of the soul as a result? Your other articles argue for soul sleep and present scriptural evidence of the freedoms and torments afforded to those in hell in the same piece, and do nothing to reconcile these. Do the words torment and everlasting punishment really just mean nothing anymore?

>>785636

>Do you really expect me to believe, as that third article says, that Jesus would preach a confusing parable and clothe it in heresy for the sake of clarity

It's not like that didn't happen before or after. Psalms 82 and the book of Judas (the brother of Jesus) use apparent heresies (polytheism and the book of Enoch) to transmit the message that God asked them to transmit. Besides, I don't even know where the parable is confusing, reading the whole chapter makes everything easier.

>all but a small minority of his future followers would believe in the immortality of the soul as a result?

As I said, God's people never was and never will be a big people. As it is written in Revelation 12:17, the followers of Jesus Christ will always be a remnant people.

That today many believe in hell occurs because the dogma of the immortal soul is one of the many Greek heresies, which permeated Catholicism and which the Protestant Reformation failed to filter.

>>785730

>It's not like that didn't happen before or after. Psalms 82 and the book of Judas (the brother of Jesus) use apparent heresies (polytheism and the book of Enoch) to transmit the message that God asked them to transmit.

Enoch is an actual biblical figure. He is recorded in genesis and many interpreters believe that he and Elijah are the two fated to prophecy in Revelation as they have yet to taste death. As for Psalms, men are quite frequently refered to as gods in scripture, most frequently alongside the title "sons of the most high." Neither of these Biblical statements is heretical, as is safe to assume.

>Besides, I don't even know where the parable is confusing, reading the whole chapter makes everything easier.

If the intent of the parable is that which you claim it is, then it has confused the vast majority of christendom from Paul to the present.

>As I said, God's people never was and never will be a big people. As it is written in Revelation 12:17, the followers of Jesus Christ will always be a remnant people.

>Essentially every heretical offshoot has cited their own persecution and obscurity as a vindication of their own new doctrines. Most people don't buy it.

That today many believe in hell occurs because the dogma of the immortal soul is one of the many Greek heresies, which permeated Catholicism and which the Protestant Reformation failed to filter.

If neither Jesus himself through the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, nor the actions of the souls in the Old Testament, including Samuel, which get brought up in the articles you have cited and then brushed aside, nor the vast majority of Christendom, often the entirety of it for centures at a time, can convince you of this doctrine, then I haven't a clue what will.

>>785802

repent kike

>>785801

First commandment: there is one God.

Sons of the most high are not in themselves God.

>>785870

>Can you show me in what other parts of the Bible, besides in that specific verse of Psalms, the author calls men gods?

Not on that anon's side of the argument, but the "sons of God" is used in Genesis; some use this fact to justify the silly idea of human/angel hybrids running around, but St. Augustine noted that it must have referred to men that kept to the God of Adam, and from whom Abel and Cain inherited the tradition of sacrifice.

Not sure what the thing about Enoch is about, but if that anon is using the Gospel of Enoch as a real thing, he's already very confused.

>>785870

>the belief that this was an eternal hell already had its opponents, among them Origenes

You mean the guy that convinced the Arabici, which had been considered new doctrine promoting weirdos that the Church had never encountered until them, for their belief in annihilationism?

>>785924

*convinced to be brought back into the fold.

>>785924

To be more detailed about my previous comment, the first time something similar to the doctrine of hell would come to appear in the Church would be in the non-canonical book "Apocalypse of Peter". Until then, the writings on the fate of the just and the infidels were limited to say that some would have a good end and a bad end. Something curious is that, among the first fathers of the Church, the eternal punishment was seen as a destruction without turning back, among them, Clement of Rome, Ignatius and Polycarp. Besides that they did not believe in an immortal soul without the connection of this one to God, belief also shared with several later church fathers (like Barnabas, Aristides, among many others).

About Origin, he believed that eternal punishment was a "benevolent deception" of God to scare us and get us back on track. The fact that he convinced the Arabici demonstrates that, while he did not believe in hell, he did believe in a post-life.

And even among the church fathers, for many years, there was no firm belief that whether hell was going to be eternal or not.

What do I mean by all this? If there were church fathers who were not favorable to the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and eternal hell, some too contemporary to the apostles to be ignored. Even that view was the most prevalent during the first centuries.

https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/immortality-or-resurection/Immortality%20or%20Resurrection.pdf

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=8vQFBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=The+Fire+that+Consumes+(1982)&source=bl&ots=F7XZJuC9TM&sig=ACfU3U0s_xFTiqhvdZPgoVcPnsc2zXMy8A&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjmzfHOuY7hAhUNHrkGHXJADDkQ6AEwCnoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

>>785894

Yes, I know, but calling the men of "Sons of God" is not the same as calling the men of "gods".

>>786014

>while he did not believe in hell, he did believe in a post-life.

Yeah, that's my point.

The arabici-style annihilationism was considered a novel weird ass heresy the Church scratched it's head about.

>>786014

>Something curious is that, among the first fathers of the Church, the eternal punishment was seen as a destruction without turning back, among them, Clement of Rome, Ignatius and Polycarp.

Wut

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-did-early-christians-believe-about-hell/

Practically all church fathers taught hell, except a smaller subset of universalists that didn't last for very long (most of whom were indirectly or directly influenced by Origen.. although not anywhere as close as heretical as Origen himself was).

>>786060

Many of the texts in that article, mainly that of the older fathers, are interpreted on the assumption that they speak of an eternal hell and immortal soul, without considering the context.

>Ignatius of Antioch

Although Ignatius makes references to the immortality and destiny of the infidels, he never seems to talk about the existence of a hell that lasts forever and the unconditional immortality of the human soul. This also applies to the rest of the fathers I will quote.

<And "he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

>Ephesians, Ignatius, chapter V

<e have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh." Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

>Ephesians, Ignatius, chapter VII (How would Jesus free our souls from death if our souls are already inmortal?)

<Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, "being waxen fat," and "become gross," sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell. In like manner, every one that has received from God the power of distinguishing, and yet follows an unskilful shepherd, and receives a false opinion for the truth, shall be punished.

I don't need to quote this one, because the article already does. It is important to note how Ignatius first compares eternal punishment with death, and then compares punishment with hell. That is, eternal punishment, hell, is death.

<Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life.

>Magnesians, Ignatius, chapter 5

<For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be

>Magnesians, Ignatius, chapter 10

<Avoid also the children of the evil one, Theodotus and Cleobulus, who produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies, and that not a mere temporary death, but one that shall endure for ever.

>Trallians, Ignatius, chapter 11 (Is there a better explanation than this for how annihilationism works?)

>>786107

>Clement of Rome

<36:2 Through him we look steadfastly to the heights of the heavens; through him we behold, as in a glass, the immaculate and lofty countenance of God the Father; through him the eyes of our heart were opened; through him our foolish and darkened understanding springeth up again to his marvellous light; through him the Lord hath willed us to taste of immortal knowledge; who, being the brightness of his glory, is so far better than the angels, as he hath, by inheritance, obtained a more excellent name than they.

>1 Clement

As you can see, it says that immortality can be known only through God, and as it makes clear in verse 1, that is a gift that only the righteous can know.

<44:2 and on this account, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry.

Fallen asleep, hmm?

<53:3 And the Lord said unto him, I have spoken unto thee once and twice, saying, I have beheld this people, and, lo, it is a stiffnecked people. Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and I will wipe out their name from under heaven, and make of thee a nation great and wonderful, and far more numerous than they.

<53:4 And Moses said, Be it far from thee, O Lord. Forgive this people their sin, or wipe my name also out of the book of the living.

Note the "destroy", which here literally means "exterminate".

Clement never talks about an "immortal soul" nor does he ever talk about a continuous punishment that lasts for all eternity.

<Now, I do not think that I have given advice of

little importance concerning temperance, which, if a

man practice, he will not repent of it, but will save

both himself and me who advise him. For it is no small

service to convert a wandering and perishing soul to

salvation.

>2 Clement 15:1

Literally, souls are capable of perishing.

>Barnabas

<But the way of the Black One is crooked and full of a curse. For it

is a way of eternal death with punishment wherein are the things that

destroy men's souls–idolatry, boldness, exhalation of power,

hypocrisy, doubleness of heart, adultery, murder, plundering, pride,

transgression, treachery, malice, stubbornness, witchcraft, magic,

covetousness, absence of the fear of God;

Again, quoting the text of the article to prove my point. Besides mentioning the soul as something that can be destroyed, notice that it speaks of eternal death with punishment, not of eternal torment with punishment. What is punishment? Fire, of course. Even so, it does not say that the punishment would last forever.

>Polycarp

The funny thing is that the citation, which in addition to being of dubious origin, ignores the context, since for the author(s), the eternal flame would come in the final judgment, as is related in chapter 11, verse 2.

<Then he said to him again, 'I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, if thou despisest the wild beasts, unless thou repent.' But Polycarp said; 'Thou threatenest that fire which burneth for a season and after a little while is quenched: for thou art ignorant of the fire of the future judgment and eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly. But why delayest thou? Come, do what thou wilt.