/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

2 thess 2:3 isn't talking about an individual's falling away, it's talking about the great apostasy before the end times

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV — Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Isaiah 57:1

The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

>>784666

>666

>>784666

>2 thess 2:3 isn't talking about an individual's falling away, it's talking about the great apostasy before the end times

Yeah basically this.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+timothy+3&version=AKJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+peter+3&version=AKJV

>>784669

Imageboard number superstition is just as satanic as Jew kabbalahism

Once saved always saved is retarded cope for people who don't want to give up their sins.

>Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed…

>…Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.

>>784673

>But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

>>784662

>If once saved always saved is true

This entire point is semantics

John 10:27-28 King James Version (KJV)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

>>784673

How does the parable of the sower possibly support your point

>>784677

This. Like so many differences between denominations, whether you accept or reject OSAS really has no bearing on how you're supposed to live your daily life as a Christian. People who believe in OSAS believe that if someone claims to have been saved, but later falls into apostasy or other grievous sin, then they were simply lying or wrong about having been saved. So whether your denominations accepts or rejects OSAS, you're still expected to avoid sin for your entire life either way.

>>784708

>The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

>>784724

Yes, they fall away from fellowship. Even though they show the first appearances of being born again, they prove fruitless

1 John 2:19 KJV — They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

>>784725

>quoting an out of context passage written to warn church members about heretics and apostates to defend protestant theology

W E W

>>784735

What's your alternative reading that doesn't place scripture in internal contradiction?

Why isn't the description of apostates in 1 John 2 analogous to the "Rocky ground" people of the parable?

>>784699

No man shall ever pluck them from his hand, but they can surely jump out of it if they decide to. No one can make you sin, sin always comes from the heart. it's kind of acknowledged very early on in scripture when Adam fell with eve. Stop latching on to these out of context verses

>>784739

How do you know that the self doesn't fall under "any man"? It's an exhaustive statement.

>>784747

Let me restate your argument for you in a coherent way:

You're not finding any immediate hermeneutical reason to exclude the self from "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand", but I gather that you're saying that the phrase allows for the exception because you understand it is possible for one to have salvation then throw it away. You understand these sections of acts, colossians and hebrews to teach this doctrine.

What you're completely neglecting is the salvation/fellowship principle:

>The salvation/fellowship principle frequently helps the interpreter to determine whether a passage should be applied to Christians, non-Christians, or both. Scripture distinguishes between being in God’s family and in God’s fellowship. If a Scripture passage deals with salvation, we understand the verses in one way. If the verses have to do with the matter of fellowship, however, we understand them in another way. This principle is important in accurately interpreting such passages as John 15. Is this a salvation or a fellowship passage? If we are dealing with a salvation passage, then the verses suggest that a person can lose his or her salvation. But that implication most surely contradicts one of the greatest, most fundamental truths in the entire Scriptures. Obviously, then, the passage is about the matter of fellowship. Jesus is not talking about the loss of salvation. He is speaking about maintaining fellowship with Him, an activity essential to bearing fruit.

Jerry Vines, Power in the Pulpit

None of these proof-texts you're throwing out explicitly teach a loss of salvation, even if you might see that prima facie. What is absolutely explicit is the doctrine of eternal security:

<“For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” (Matthew 24:24)

<“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

<“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.” (John 10:28-29)

<“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13-14)

and easiest of all

<"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16

Fundamentally, if you believe your salvation is conditional, you believe that you are somehow contributory to it in direct contradiction with Ephesians 2

>“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast,”

There is NOTHING you can do to deserve grace, and that's ANY grace. If you are trusting in your works, you go to hell FOREVER. You will hear, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Matt 7:23)

>>784662

>If once saved always saved is true

It's not.

>>784754

incorrect

John 10:28-30 King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

>>784766

You can mine almost anything on in isolation to support a view. You should know better that we rightly divide the word of truth. The same Gospel also said we must be born from above (John 3:3), and that some of Jesus' own disciples literally left when he spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood.. and only the 12 Apostles were left. A very small minority compared to the crowds he had before.

And the Apostle John later said in his epistle "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:20). Plenty of people confess God, but betray him by their behavior elsewhere. So it isn't a simple matter of belief all of the time. Just as St James said, we show our faith by our works. What good is it to say "Bless you" to a widow or homeless man, but then not actually do anything for them? It shows we don't actually have any faith or believe in the love of God. For God calls us to reflect his love and be a light in the world.

>>784773

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We're all sinners and we can't help but sin, the Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness.

But also you're partially correct,

Matthew 5:13-16 King James Version (KJV)

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

There is a difference between being saved and being righteous. Anyone can be saved through the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance (change of mind), but performing works in this life is only possible by walking with the Lord.

>>784752

Bro, you need to sort your shit out. The Bible is not something for you to philosophize about all willy-nilly and draw your own conclusions from. You need sacred tradition to understand it. Just like how Jesus would explain his parables to the disciples, the Holy Spirit explains scripture to the church. You aren't being guided by the Holy Spirit, you're being guided by your own will

>>784856

>hmm i can't find anything wrong with his argument, let me just remind him that it's not sanctioned by the church which I concluded has exclusive interpretive power

>>784869

I didn't even read your "argument"

I'm not gonna waste my time reading your buzzwords that you don't even understand.

>>784944

Then why are you here?

>>785028

K

>>785028

>To inform you that you're wrong.

How am I wrong if that was my first post in this thread. And more generally, you need to have a cogent point in order to establish facts. If you haven't read someone's posts and you admit this then you have no business degrading the quality of this board or this thread.

>Why are you on a Christian imageboard if you don't follow Christ's teachings?

Jesus is the Lord and Savior. If you have a problem with scripture then it's you who has an issue. I'm praying for God to help you understand his word.

>>785031

> I'm praying for God to help you understand his word.

More like you're praying to Satan and trying to lay a curse on me so that I commit the same heresies as you.

>>785032

tradcaths are the conescending preteen atheists of christian debate

>>785028

Ah yes, O' Thomas Aquinas, the same guy who believed that the Vatican was legit because of the one of many pseudo-isidorian decretals: the donation of Constantine.

>>784982

Sola Scriptura is a pretty bad argument in itself as it throws out the church fathers and apostolic tradition but so is Papism.

>>785033

Not at all.

An atheist says to the Christian:

>stupid christcucks, you just do whatever the Bible tells you because you're a sheep who can't think for himself

Likewise, a prot says to the Catholic:

>stupid catholicuck, you just do whatever the Pope tells you because you're a sheep who can't think for himself

Meanwhile, the Catholic lets the Holy Spirit guide his thinking.

>>785146

Scripture was written by men, too

>>785278

And neither is the Bible

>once always saved saved?

sage for not important

>>785296

Don't put words in my mouth, liar.

>>785296

Imagine being this dishonest. You are on the path to hell.

>>784669

>believes that the post numbers actually means anything.

What about the 666 page of the bible then?