/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Don't mind the typos. I am on my phone rn

Read 1 John then James.

>>783381

Faith itself is a work, the way St. Paul uses it, he means only works, the way the OT uses it and similar words, they mean only works. It is a false dichotomy made be the ignorant to justify their degeneracy and lack of works, while the Saints of the Church are out doing the hard job of saving their souls and saving others.

I've met a lot of Protestants who stand by Sola Fide and come to an agreement that we were talking about the same thing. We agreed that works are a sign of faith, and that faith without works isn't really faith at all. Therefore, faith alone saves us, but faith without works doesn't exist. However, I feel like faith alone is oversimplified wording that leads to real misunderstandings. Misunderstandings that lead to people saying that repentance isn't necessary for salvation. Faith + Works is better wording that leaves less room for error.

>>783393

I'm not sure what a better phrase would be. Faith Alone can imply that faith can somehow exist without works, and Faith + Works can imply that works are what gives us salvation.

>>783381

Does sola fide mean I don’t have to turn the other cheek?

Sola fide is the most inescapable out of the five solae of the reformation, biblically

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

You are saved through faith, not of works. End of story.

The catholics you've encountered are applying James as a proof text in contradiction to the other relevant soteriological passages, making themselves the arbiters of what passages are authoritative and which aren't. This is the inevitable result of rejecting scriptural inerrancy.

>In Romans it says,

<"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . " (Rom. 3:20)

<"for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Rom. 3:28)

<"For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" (Rom. 4:3)

<"Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1)

<"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." (Rom. 4:5).

>In James it says,

<"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

<" . . . so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:26).

The reconciliation is this: James is speaking in reference to the confirmation of salvation manifesting in works, not teaching that the works brought the salvation.

References taken from https://carm.org/are-we-justified-faith-romans-or-works-james

read it for the full presentation

Another complication that needs clarification is the use of the word "repentance". Repentance in the Bible can have several meanings: in one way it only means a change in belief, but other times it means a putting away of sin. This could be misunderstood to mean that you have to first free yourself from committing sin before you can be saved, which is obvious heresy that defeats the purpose of grace. It's not even possible.

>>783385

this "false dichotomy" is directly lifted from the holy Bible

>>783388

"faith plus works" is the misleading affirmation that directly contradicts Ephesians 2. Faith alone is only in reference to receiving salvation, not the Christian life.

Roman catholics explicitly reject the doctrine of sola fide as you've presented it by teaching that receiving the sacraments is a (normative) requirement in order to first receive salvation. This is exactly what Paul denounces.

Notice that the effect of rejecting salvation by faith, not of works; then defining those saving works as only attainable through hocus pocus ritual, makes you entirely reliant on that corruptible institution. Really makes me think.

>>783400

No. You are still accountable before God to obey all His commandments after salvation. The only difference is that when you fail, you have forgiveness.

>>783401

Sacraments are a bit of a different discussion I feel. In the interests of keeping discussion from derailing, maybe we should stay on the topic of works as in good deeds and charity.

>>783405

As far as I'm aware, catholics and other sacramentalists do not claim charitable actions are saving works, but they do say so for the sacraments. I don't think sacraments can be removed from the debate because they meet the definition of "work" and it's claimed that they are requisite in receiving grace.

>>783402

I dun geddit.

>>783408

Where are we miscommunicating?

Does Sola fide contradict the instruction to turn the other cheek? The answer is no. Sola fide is a doctrine regarding how to receive salvation.

>>783407

I don't know what Catholics believe, I'm an Orthodox. We would classify charity, repentance, prayer, good deeds in general, and participation in the church, sacraments, etc as all good works. But it seemed like you were objecting to Sacraments being classified as a work. That's what I meant by derailing.

>>783401

They are all escapable by referring to the tradition, if you don't like Catholics, then look at the Orthos, if not them, then the Copts, if not them, then the Ethipians, if not them, then the Assyrians, if not them, then the Indians, not a single one of the old Churches with succession agree with you or your assinine statements.

>>783420

Proof from tradition

>>783420

sure if by "escapable" you mean "I don't have to provide an argument"

First, it's not enough to simply specify "faith." Rather you have to specify in what you put your faith, because many people place their faith in the wrong thing. They might believe in their works or the fact they were born in a certain place to a certain family for instance. That's not the faith of Christ.

We are called to believe in the blood of Christ to save. That requires turning away from any other faiths. There is only one faith to speak of from Scripture, and that is in the Son. To say however that this doesn't involve work is wrong because Christ did the ultimate work and moreover God did a work in us to give us the chance to believe. Philippians 1:6 says

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Also Romans 8:29 says

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

And Revelation 21 says:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Lastly, consider what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:10

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Let God do his works. Meanwhile, rest in the Lord. Let the Lord increase, let yourself decrease.

>>783381

faith without works = dead

thus,

faith with works = alive

>>783502

not in contest with sola fide

>>783502

Do sola fideists believe that dead faith can save?

Instead of Faith and Works, or Faith with Works, try Faith and Love through Works. It is not salvation you seek when working, nor is it the reward. What you gain from Works, or at least seek to gain, is a strengthened Faith in and greater Love for Christ.