/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>782315

Well I'm not Catholic let me get this out of the way, I'm an Eastern Orthodox inquirer who used to be Roman Catholic so let me try and represent the RCC's position but just keep this in mind.

On Saints, do not mix up prayer with worship, ultimately praying to a Saint is practically the same as asking a friend to pray for you, but Saints are no longer with us of course, they now share a communion with God which is why we utilize prayer to ask them.

We can ask the saints to pray for us, just as we ask our friends and family to do so. And when we make such a request for their intercession, we make it in the form of a prayer, simple as that, we don't worship the Saints.

On the structure of the church, I'm gonna have to ask you to elaborate on that a bit, you mean like the administrative structure of the RCC or what?

>>782315

Spoiler: it doesn't

>>782664

>structure of church

I mean like where in the Bible does it apoint archbishops, priests, the pope, etc

>>782706

No it was just technical difficulties

>>782713

Polity

>Where in there does it say to pray to saints

Premise 1: Christians should pray for each other (Rom. 1:9, Ephesians 1:15,16, 2 Timothy 1:3, etc.)

Premise 2: Christians should ask holy men to pray for them for "The prayer of a righteous person has great effectiveness." - James 5:16

Premise 3: The saints in heaven are righteous (Revelation 21:27)

Conclusion: We should ask the saints to pray for us.

<But Christ is the only mediator between God and men

Yes, but if asking your friends to pray for you doesn't usurp Christ's role, why would asking the saints for prayers would?

<You should only pray to God

Prayer isn't the same as worship. Prayer just means "to ask."

Example: "Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay." - 1 Kings 2:20 KJV

Bathsheba isn't worshipping her son Solomon, she is asking him for a petition.

<The saints are dead though

Not at all

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life" - John 6:54

<The saints don't care about us

Actually Hebrews 12:1 says "we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses"

<There is no example of Saints praying for us

Wrong, revelation 8:3-4 says

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

And revelation 5:8 says "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

>>782833

The only relevant premise for the question was neglected from this explanation: Is it possible for the saints in heaven to intercede for us? A more thorough argument needs to be made if you mean to affirm the practice.

Yes, the deceased saints are living eternal life in heaven. Yes, intercessory prayer is affirmed explicitly for one living person interceding for another.

Two of your examples nearly provide prooftexts, but they fall flat under scrutiny. The "cloud of witnesses" of Hebrews 12 is figurative language referring to the old testament believers on whom we model in their testimonies of faith, looking forward to the savior who is Jesus. It does not imply they have any awareness of our doings on earth.

Revelation 3 is a selection of a prophetic vision. The prayers of the saints are offered up. Prayers from when, and by whom? It is not specified. Don't catholics take an allegorical, preterist view of Revelation anyway?

Where did you copy-paste this from?

>>782838

I didn't copy and paste this. Catholics don't take preterist view of Revelation but even if the church did, that shouldn't matter as this is an argument that all Christians should consider praying to the Saints. I was providing a biblical reason why we should consider praying to the saints because they are righteous and their prayers are more effective.

They are able to pray for us like we are able to pray for each other because they are alive. Unless you can make an argument for why they aren't able to pray for us for some reason.

Scripture also says there is good reason to believe those in heaven and can see what we do because:

" there is joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance." (Luke xv. 10.)

The angel Raphael says: "when thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayers to the Lord " (Tob. 12:12)

Also in Zach. 1:12 it is said "the angel of the Lord answered and said, O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem ; and on the cities of Juda with which thou hast been angry ? This is now the seventh year : and the Lord answered the angel, that spoke in me, good words, comfortable words."

So it's evident that those in heaven are aware of the happenings of Earth. And would thou make be believe that our heavenly father wouldn't let our prayers reach the saints?

I know that most prots don't care but here is a link showing that the Early Church believed in prayer to the Saints: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/dfathrst.htm

>>782844

I only asked about copying because it was well formatted as if a stand-alone article.

Angels aren't dead saints (first death), so we're still missing an affirmation of their knowledge of our activity. I think you're already aware that tobit is not a reliable source to us protestants.

I agree with your logic as far as it necessarily follows, that if we could know that the dead saints could intercede for us it would be productive.

>>782846

>I only asked about copying because it was well formatted as if a stand-alone article.

I was inspired by this: https://youtu.be/oG54YNkPVAE but I wrote everything myself

There is no reason as to why we couldn't ask the angels to pray for us. Also if the angels could see our activities I don't find any reason why the saints couldn't. Plus I don't think God would hide our prayers to the saints especially if Christians been praying to them for little less than 2,000 years.

But my response was to help OP understand there is a scriptural basis for Praying to the saints for Catholics. It would be much harder to convince Protesants that they should also.

(Also I didn't know Tobit was deuterocanonical, oops)

>>782709

The Mass is a sacrifice yes, but the Church doesn't sacrifice Jesus again. It's the same sacrifice as the Crucification, the same exact sacrifice but this time is presented to us as unbloody. "It is finished" was a reference to the end of the Passion, the Bloody Sacrifice. We don't overlook "do this in remembrance of me", that's the order of Christ to do the Mass.

>>782941

In your own terms "the bloody sacrifice" ended, but you say the sacrifice is ongoing?

How is my salvation assured if Christ hasn't already atoned for my sins? The Bible says "Christ suffered for sins ONCE for all"

>>782713

According to St. Jerome's commentary on Titus:

Therefore, as we have shown, among the ancients presbyters were the same as bishops; but by degrees, that the plants of dissension might be rooted up, all responsibility was transferred to one person. Therefore, as the presbyters know that it is by the custom of the Church that they are to be subject to him who is placed over them so let the bishops know that they are above presbyters rather by custom than by Divine appointment, and ought to rule the Church in common, following the example of Moses, who, when he alone had power to preside over the people Israel, chose seventy, with the assistance of whom he might judge the people. We see therefore what kind of presbyter or bishop should be ordained.

>>782942

The Sacrifice is Eternal, the bloody part is finished though. I'm too tired to debate rn here is a good source for anyone interested http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/Sacrific.htm