/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Relevant scripture

Romans 10:11-18 NASB — For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE fnDISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO fnBRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” However, they did not all heed the fngood news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word fnof Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,

AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE fnWORLD.”

The gospel is the message. "Jesus died for your sins" is the message, and so that is the gospel, but I think you're pointing out it doesn't hit every necessary detail. Some people like to say "full gospel" meaning one that includes every necessary detail for salvation. In my judgment, the resurrection has to be mentioned.

Romans 10:9 NASB — that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

A complete gospel gives the listener all the necessary information to respond in this way.

>>781267

Of course, the only reason you're asking is because it is our belief that if you had knowledge of the Christian truth in this life, but rejected it, going hell would be the consequence that follows. Probably this is a bit overblown, because we believe also that those who do not know this truth, and are never exposed to it during life, will be judged in accordance with what they knew to be true.

Really I don't see why this should be any different for a person born in a post-Christian society, and of course, it is hard to say whether you know something, just because someone on the street told it to you. The way I take it, is that if you are told the whole of the Bible, but are unaware it is the truth, you are not guilty, but if you are just randomly standing somewhere, and Christ strikes you like a bolt of lightening and you basically say to yourself "shit, Christ is God" and then do nothing about it, then I would say that you've made a truly conscious rejection, and this would send you to hell.

So it's actually quite hard to send yourself to hell this way, it would require that you actually act unreasonably. Something like "Christ is God, but His will conflicts with my personal desires, so even though I know He is God, I'm going to cheat in my marriage and shoot my neighbour's dog this week and never repent of either."

It's not impossible, but you have to be an exceedingly nasty piece of work.

>>781473

Yeah, this is what kind of disturbs me about the whole invincible ignorance thing.

It seems like if you were fully convinced that Christ was God, that would be the same as having perfect faith. Acting against that would be almost suicidal, like jumping off of a high building in spite of your knowledge of the objective laws of physics.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's a very anxiety-provoking grey area.

And the other objection along the same lines is because none of us has perfect faith, almost none of us, as you say, are /really/ going to hell.

I myself am trying to join the Catholic Church and I believe in what the Church teaches, but I don't believe with the same vehemence I would give to something I see with my own eyes.

This whole question (how much do you have to know before you're condemned) seems like the convergence of two infinitely mysterious things, that is, faith and free will…

I really need an answer