/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>771896

Smoldering ashes after being burned for heresy.

>>771896

That's a hard one. I guess the Roman Catholics are the least heretical but at least the confessional Lutherans and Anglo-Catholics aren't Papists. They're all in protest against the holy Orthodox Catholic Church though so ignore their heresies and join the Church Jesus founded.

>>771896

the one that doesn't come out of its sinking hole

my one

The Waldensians

>all the papist butthurt itt

The answer is whatever holds consistently to the teachings of Scripture.

So the Reformed Christians.

>>771912

I doubt any papists will as they believe their roman government has extra-tradition along side the bible for their authority.

>>771912

>everyone who disagrees with me is a papist

It's okay, friend. The Orthodox Church welcomes it's arms to all.

>>771896

idk about 'best' but Presbyterianism is my favourite, but also like Anglo-Catholicism since its most like cathodoxy and Lutheranism since its like a middle ground between the two.

>>771912

Based

>>771896

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia.

>>771953

I don't know if this is common in all Presbyterian churches, but the one in my area has a bar where the men get together and drink and tell dirty jokes after church on Sunday.

>>771901

United Methodists are sodomites?

Anything arminian.

>>771901

>the Church created by the Apostles

>False gospel tier

>>772025

If the boot fits

>>771898

Now THAT'S what I call EDGY

>>771985

Sadly yes

>>771896

Hegelianism.

>>771901

This chart is shit in so many ways.

GTFO Pastor Jim Bob.

>>772109

no u

>>771901

>Catholics

>below televangelists

>>772120

televangelists dont call crusades on people who dont agree with them on minute philosophical details that have zero basis in the bible, so I can get that

>>771904

Well uhm maybe when you guys actually go and evangelize. If your church is the only way to God (according to you) you make a very little effort to convert people to be saved. IRL. There are enough meme posters online.

>>772166

>caths invoke crusades over small differences

>prots splinter into new groups over small differences

No thanks, we're good.

>>772120

televangelists usually still affirm sola fide

>>771912

>whatever holds consistently to the teachings of Scripture

<which the Orthodox wrote and selected

>>772241

These numbers are insane across the board.

>>772243

The implication here >>772237 was that catholicism would have spared us from the political situation regarding abortion, but I've shown that the evidence disproves that. If anything, protestantism provides greater resistance to the pro-abortion movement than catholicism.

>progressivism is secular protestantism

No. Progressivism is a direct contradiction with protestantism. See the "protestant ethic" as observed from the outside by Weber >100 years ago. Progressivism is a pro-state regulation movement. Protestantism is opposed to this authoritarianism by definition.

Secular protestantism is just a contradiction.

Catholics and protestants are both facing the outside enemy of progressive liberalism.

>>772251

Agreed, it's depressing.

>>772253

Orthodoxy would save us. The martyrs in the East suffered unimaginably at the hands of Bolsheviks or Peter the Great.

>>772298

Well, those are the Greeks lol.

>>772298

Not saying abortion is funny just that not all Orthodox groups are equally pious.

>>772308

>>772311

Are they not in good fellowship with you? Isn't that the premise of your doctrine of ecumenism?

These aren't just a couple of nominal eastern orthodoxers, these are the leaders of the greeks.

See here >>772241 how all categories of "orthodox christian" report being majority pro-abortion. Worse than catholics, much worse than every evangelical denomination but PCA.

>>771896

The one that doesn’t indoctrinate me into worshipping edomites in sandopolis.

>>772321

>edomites

DAS RITE

>>772315

Aren't Anglicans also in some sort of communion with the Orthodox?

>>772315

That is not true, I have seen no evidence Orthodox believers are more pro-abortion overall.

Cite some evidence for this please…

Instead of pulling a meme headline about a heretic claiming to be Orthodox.

Shall we discuss Vatican II clown masses and all the heretics claiming to be Catholic?

>>772315

Ecumenism is false. World Council of Churches is a Rockerfeller front.

>>772360

>a heretic claiming to be Orthodox

That picture is of Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople

>>772363

Bishops aren't dictators. They can be wrong. They can be deposed. Grace doesn't come from the bishop. He says "we" because he is a mere representative of the community.

Lots of people freak out over which jurisdiction and which bishop they are under but God is not going to send us to hell for having the wrong bishop. This is madness. This is like the Catholics who believe Papa Francis has the power to send them to hell for questioning his communism.

Look at all the bishops appointed under Peter 'the Great' or the Soviets. Many of them were freemasons or heretics. And you call me the heretic.

Orthodoxy or Death. No to ecumenism.

One of the reformed Christian sects such as Presbyterianism, reformed Baptism or even evangelical Christianity. But stay away from Pentecostalism.

>>772237

>Yet we tolerated Prots

No you didn't, you just failed to suppress them

>>772414

>failed to suppress

you make protestants sound like scrappy rebels, but in reality the protestants had the support of their respective States who were very well interested in seizing land and political power from the Church

there's a reason why most of the successful protestant communities did very well, they had support of the secular princes, whom had no fear of damnation nor concern of salvation

They're all bad anon

>>772298

>>772294

>>772470

The problem is partly that Orthodoxy in Western countries has forgotten some lessons from the Ottoman and communist oppressions. The only lesson many seem to remember is the incorrect one of not being overly evangelistic. There is much work to be done, but it is best done in the Orthodox context as there really is no room for being pro-abortion; the Didache explicitly bans it by name and it dates back to the 1st Century.

>>772471

>Overly evangelistic

No such thing. If we don't preach the gospel, our neighbors go to hell.

>>772471

>Orthodoxy in Western countries

Doesn't Russia have the highest abortion rate in Europe?

>>772521

Banging on doors while people are trying to relax at home, approaching people who clearly don't want to be approached, and being annoying in general isn't going to help anybody.

Tell people that you are a christian with the way you live your life, not with your words. When you go out of your way to tell people about your religion you come off as condescending and arrogant. The best way to save souls is to live as a good and strong Christian and lead by example. Those who want to be saved will see the affects of God's doctrine on you and follow after you while those who don't want to be saved will never be saved.

>>772571

Heresy

Romans 10:13-14 KJV — For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

>>772573

they are other valid forms of preaching, like, you know, going into the market place or a city square and start preaching

as most christians have done for over 2,000 years.

>heresy

heretics cannot call something heresy

>>772582

>You're a heretic. If you don't share the gospel, your faith evidences no works and so it is dead.

I just said there were other methods of preaching, some the Apostles themselves did.

you a muslim or something?

>>772573

In what way does that contradict anything I said?

>>772582

Oh yeah, being annoying and making everyone think Christians are self-righteous jerks is certainly going to win millions of converts.

You know those atheist fags who constantly winge on and on about being atheists and everybody including other atheists looks down on them? That's what avid evangelists look like to everyone else. It's not helping anybody.

>>772592

No, I'm a Christian. The word preach exclusively refers to a proclamation of words. Other charitable acts are also instructions, but they do not bring belief unto salvation.

>>772594

You alleged that preaching the message isn't necessary, "deeds not words". Romans 10 contradicts that.

>>772595

Don't argue with me, argue with the Bible. It directly instructs YOU to evangelise.

>>772597

>The word preach exclusively refers to a proclamation of words. Other charitable acts are also instructions, but they do not bring belief unto salvation.

Which is why I said that preaching in public is also an acceptable form preaching, you seem to be up in arms defending door-knocking, but both forms are entirely acceptable.

>>772599

Miscommunication

You interjected in defense of the claim that "the way you live your life" qualifies as preaching

I agree that public evangelism is appropriate

>>772597

>Romans 10 contradicts that.

No it doesn't. I didn't mean that you shouldn't tell people about Christ if they ask, I did mean that you shouldn't go intruding on people and telling them they they're going to hell unless they stop what their doing and listen to you right now.

>Don't argue with me, argue with the Bible. It directly instructs YOU to evangelise.

Yes. It does NOT, however, instruct me to be a nuisance and drive people away from the church.

>>772603

Matthew 3:1-2 KJV — In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

You are not allowed to wait around for people to ask you about it. I agree that there are bad and rude methods. I never promoted any, you're criticizing a strawman.

>>772605

Does sound like anything more than what >>772575 said.

Also you said here >>772521 that there is no such thing as being overly evangelistic, and I'm saying that there is because if you're evangelistic to the point that it's annoying you're just going to drive people away.

>>772609

I'm gathering that "overly evangelistic" to you means being aggressive or provocative. That's not what I think the phrase implies, which is your level of focus on evangelism.

I also just noticed the first guy was affirming that evangelism is deficient in eastern orthodoxy but he just used a double negative, so really I'm not challenging him in the first place

>>772611

I guess it was just a miscommunication then. Apologies.

>>771901

LMFAO the absolute state of Prots

>>772543

An outdated (IIRC the survey we see posted so often is nearly a decade old) meme, abortion rates are plummeting in Russia with every passing year (there was a good article I remember seeing for exactly this subject but I'm having trouble finding it). The Duma is, however, rather stubborn, and often rejects pushes by the hierarchs to speed up the process. It's slow going, but they're getting there.

Fun Fact: The number of abortions under the Sovok in the 60's to the 80's alone were double the amount of war deaths in the Second World War.

>>772624

Slight clarification: double the amount of war deaths for the Russians, not every single nation.

>>772620

There was a thread on it recently but it must have been pruned. I can't find it now. Pray for the Methodists, they will need it.

>>772543

You can't expect a nation to be perfect when it has only been free of Satan for 30 years. At least they are getting better where as America is getting worse.

>>772571

>Banging on doors while people are trying to relax at home, approaching people who clearly don't want to be approached, and being annoying in general isn't going to help anybody.

It would have at least saved the millions of people who are or have been Jehovas Witnesses or Mormons for those not fortunate enough to live in more Christian societies these people are often the only contact with "Christians" they will ever receive. Likewise Evangelisation doesnt have to be all door knocking.

>Those who want to be saved will see the affects of God's doctrine on you and follow after you while those who don't want to be saved will never be saved.

Is that method actually effective though - and is an Ottoman style resistance (-a process greatly affected by ethnic identity) something that should be be seen as a model in a society that is largely apathetic rather than literally hostile ?

>>771901

>evangelicals

>baptists

>not poo poo, pee pee tier

>>771896

None

As a Russian speaking Orthodox Christian I've visited several churches in my neighborhood of different nationalities. ALL of them WITHOUT exception conduct sermons against abortion. Regularly. My priest, who is Greek, confided to me the cases of great human tragedy he personally experienced that abortion brought about, including women mutilated and becoming unable to bear further children.

Don't trust Pew polls. They were probably taken in Russia, where most population sadly has a totally secularized, pragmatic, self serving mentality due to decades of communism. Only 6% of Russians are true Orthodox believers, but with God's help that number will grow.

The Patriarch of Constatinople is a Phanariot which is a particularly pozzed type of Greek. During the last days Byzantine empire, they were known to betray the Basileus and aid the Turks. The CoC is infiltrated with masons and planted "operatives" who push forward a global agenda of ecumenism and UN sponsored "world church". Ever since then they gave Greeks around the world a bad name.

>>773371

With God's help yes.

What do you think of the Old Believers?

>>773371

Pew is very reputable. The religious landscape survey was in America

>>773375

I do not know much about the modern state of the Old Believers, but I agree Nikon's "reform" was thoroughly retarded (people were killed for making the sign of the cross with two fingers). The doctrinal differences between Old and "New" belief are so negligible to the point that I don't even understand them. From what I can tell Nikon wanted to align ROC's liturgical practices to the Greeks, but it all came down to a machiavellian power grab to try to gain legitimacy for the "Third Rome" idea under a weak Tsar.

I sympathise with the Old Believers, but don't necessarily identify with their cause. The Church is far from perfect, but as far as I know nobody has taken away the grace it was given by God.

>>773394

My mistake then. Certainly it saddens me to know that so many fellow Orthodox Christians think that murder should be legalized "in some or all cases".

>>773371

>>772471

>>772470

Keep in mind, these pew polls are mostly skewed by the fact that many Orthodox and Catholics polled are baptized but non-practicing, and many of them are immigrants. Trad Caths and observant Orthodox are just as likely to be pro-life as evangelicals, especially if they are white.

>>773427

That's not a skew

>>771899

w-we wuz the true church!

Cringe

>>771906

kek

>>772470

>posts american stats to prove protestantism is the best

>American "empire" and its current state is partially a result of protestantism

kek.

Funny thing is that US has the largest base of zionist christians and yes….among prots it is rampant. It is interesting that you forgot to mention that.

Protestant Reformed

It's pretty hardcore Calvinist. People wear muted colors and women cover their heads, sermons are 10/10 and often fire and brimstone, and exclusive psalmody.

>>774538

You’re ignoring the issue. Why are US Catholics so pro-abortion?

>>776944

There are quite a few liberal views held by US catholics from what I've seen, though it probably doesn't help that most of my experience is from the catholic ministry on a liberal college campus. That said, the other Christian groups on campus don't seem to be too liberal from my limited experience with them.

>>776952

In my experience it’s both. I’ve known very conservative and very liberal Catholics on my campus.

>>773427

>many Orthodox and Catholics polled are baptized but non-practicing

The same can be said about a great deal of Southern Baptists, yet they're still mostly against abortion.

>>774538

Pope Saint John Paul II wouldn't like you saying bad things about your elder brothers in the faith :^)

>>772543

Russia is a secular country wtih 4% Church attendance and even nominally only 40% are Orthodox Christians.

You think the 40% or even better, the 4% are responsible for abortions?

Just stop looking at countries in general to decide on a denomination, at best a country is Christian on paper and never in practice.

>>771901

this is more or less what I was raised believing, before begoming. its probably pretty commonly held at least in American Christianity

>>771901

Move all the heretical Protestant sects to "cult-tier" (except the ones already in Sodomite-tier) or "false gospel", and bring the Catholics to top-tier, then it's accurate.

I'm denominationally a Baptist, but pretty much an old-school Lutheran. Any by old-school I mean I believe close to what Luther said himself and not what his followers morphed it into. I believe all four Marian dogmas to some degree. I still pray rosaries, but otherwise don't practice intercession of the saints (even though I believe they are definitely alive and part of the church). I do believe Baptism is necessary for salvation, and Christ is present in the eucharist (Lutheranism makes sense when it comes to how, but I prefer to think of it simply as a mystery).

I get into arguments with Protestants around me about my Marian beliefs, but scripture seems pretty clear on those.

>>778717

You aren't baptist

>>778747

Never said I was, really. That is just the denomination of the church I go to. I'm just a bible believer. Everything I said is in the bible and I can't in good conscience deny obvious truths because they conflict with anti-Catholic traditions in the denomination.

>>778717

As a catholic, I agree with >>778747 . You aren't even protestant at that point anon.

You seem like you just need some convincing of a few points to become catholic. You seem to be afraid/self-conscious to take on the identity of the church rather actually disagreeing with it. You barely even agree with Luther, let alone Baptists.

>>778750

>Everything I said is in the bible and I can't in good conscience deny obvious truths because they conflict with anti-Catholic traditions in the denomination.

You need to leave ASAP. Even if your parents/family disagree with it. We are told to forsake our Mother and Father if it is for the sake of following Christ.

>>778750

Why are you a member of a church with whom you reject the doctrine? How can you function as a body part when your idea of receiving the gospel are counter to the whole?

You should reform or leave, because you're in contradiction at the moment.

>>778757

Luther believed all four Marian dogmas. That is a fact and you can look it up. (They are also all truly about Christ and denying them has led to great heresies among prominent Protestant theologians.) Real presence is common in mainline churches, especially high-church and traditionally. Believing that Baptism is necessary is also reasonably common. None of what I have said conflicts with Protestantism. If I wanted to be a Catholic, I would be.

>>778774

None of it is really counter to the whole. All of my beliefs about Mary are necessary for believing what my church believes about Christ. Baptism, although they won't say out loud that you "need" to do it, is expected and essentially required. Maybe real presence is at odds, but they certainly show due reverence to communion. It isn't just some silly ritual.

>>778778

I've never heard of a baptist church that doesn't require baptism for membership, but your position that baptism is necessary for salvation is explicitly the issue from where we get the title "baptist". Baptist theology views baptism as an ordinance, not a sacrament. You should revisit your church's confessional document.

>>778778

To connect the dots, this is a soteriological issue. If you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, you're submitting to a church that teaches a false gospel. From their perspective, you are believing a false gospel and can't do evangelism with their blessing.

>>778775

>Luther believed all four Marian dogmas. That is a fact and you can look it up.

But even ignoring that, every other position you hold is counter to his beliefs. You aren't an old-school Lutheran, you're a convert with cold feet. I was the same way, that's why I'm encouraging you to convert. Trust me, you'll be in better company here than among protestants. Those people will treat you like a pariah if they find out what you believe. Why live in fear of those around you?

>None of it is really counter to the whole. All of my beliefs about Mary are necessary for believing what my church believes about Christ. Baptism, although they won't say out loud that you "need" to do it, is expected and essentially required.

The fact that you say that is inherently opposed to nearly all mainline protestant sects outside of maybe the Anglicans… And even prots treat them like diet Catholicism.

>Maybe real presence is at odds, but they certainly show due reverence to communion.

They may seem reverent, but they're reverent for the wrong reasons,especially if you believe in the real prescience.

>It isn't just some silly ritual.

Maybe not silly, but to them it is still just a ritual. It has no purpose other than vaguely reenacting a part of the Bible.

Like I said earlier, this is basically an identity crisis mixed with a crisis of faith. You need to accept things as they are anon. Quit pretending to be something you're not for the sake of those around you. God loves you as you are, regardless of what others may think. Follow him where he is calling you, not where the world demands you go.

>>778789

I investigated Catholicism 4 years ago when I first became a Christian. I can't in good faith become a Catholic. I am not in denial. While the scriptural evidence for a papacy seems convincing, it doesn't pan out. The more sedevacantists talk, the more you realise that it never worked. I have no fear of being Catholic and no one would be surprised in my immediate life if I did convert. But my disagreements with Catholicism (beyond the papacy) are far greater than the things I appear to have in common.

>>778782

>>778784

I said denominationally Baptist. I am well aware that I am not Baptist in a real sense. But I am firmly Protestant besides my perhaps heterodox views and I can't become Anglican where I would probably find a home because of the absolute state of that church. Baptists are the least offensive and I have to go somewhere.

>>778798

Ok. I'm not meaning to encourage you to drop church altogether. Maybe you should visit with a pastor for his explanation of why he holds the views you don't since you're there, it would only help.

>>778795

Than at least consider something like orthodoxy. I'd rather you be a schismatic than a heretic. You don't belong there anon, and they'd make that clear to you, just as they are now.

>The more sedevacantists talk, the more you realise that it never worked.

Again, I too bought into sedememes at first. But the more you realize how both historically brilliant and historically flawed the church is, the more their rhetoric rings like hot air. The papacy and the church were never as flawless as they like to pretend, nor did traditions never change. Sedevacantism is rose-tinted nostalgia applied to theology. The traditional mass is great, and I'm glad to have it restored (even if I still can't understand why it can't be in the vernacular, even though Eastern Catholics can celebrate the Divine Liturgy in it…) but they aren't as correct or honest as they seem.

>>778810

I have considered Orthodoxy and I may find myself in an Orthodox church at some point. When I first became a Christian, I went a few times to a Russian Orthodox church. My beliefs are pretty close. I don't really want to be an Orthoprot so I may need more time and the "ethnic club" atmosphere is off-putting.

>>778819

You need a bit of soul searching M8. I still think the Catholic Church sounds like your best option even trying my best to put aside my bias, but you definitely need to get out of Baptist practice and Protestantism in general for your own sake.

If you really like the east, there's always Eastern Catholicism or Latin Rite Orthodoxy. I've contemplated switching rites before tbh, and have even attended a Ukrainian Catholic mass several times, but like you said the ethnic thing did still kind of get in the way a bit.

>>778789

>But even ignoring that, every other position you hold is counter to his beliefs

No, his beliefs are pretty consistent with what Luther believed. You must be confusing Luther with one of the other reformers.

>>778963

Luther didn't believe in the real presence. He believed in Consubstantiation, which is spiritual rather than literal.

>>778974

He didn't believe in transubstantiation. If that means he didn't believe in the real presence than the Orthodox don't believe in the real presence either.

>>778982

>If that means he didn't believe in the real presence than the Orthodox don't believe in the real presence either.

You're speaking to a catholic… Besides, the Orthos believe in definitive change which is still different from what Luther believed.

>>778985

Sorry, Luther believed in sacramental union… which is effectively consubstantiation without being tied down to the specific term… Just like definitive prescience is with Transubstantiation